The New Perspective on Paul

fhansen said:

Ok. So I'm not sure but are you saying that Paul wouldn't agree that love constitutes righteousness for man? Just as a note I'd submit that Paul wasn't intending to produce some sort of systematic and exhaustive catechism with his letters, but rather to address specific points of concern as they arose which made him focus on clarifying differences between the old and new way in how God has now approached man, and that man needs to know in order to approach God. But his letters sometimes may even seem contradictory on certain points-and Peter suggests that they're not always easy to understand. Either way I've enjoyed this discussion and it caused me to do some some research on the NPP, which has merit IMO even though its perspective isn't always consistent between holders of the view. I'll go back and read Romans more in any case in light of the discussion.

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Right. For Paul righteousness is what defines us as being God's. That is faith. Not just in the sense of believing that something is true, but in the sense of commitment to Christ. Those who are justified by faith are expected to show it, and will be judged for that. But normally (and I agree that Paul isn't always consistent or precise in his language) he doesn't use righteousness for to refer to the quality of our Christian lives. You can actually find a place where he seems to make salvation independent of how we live (Rom 10:5-13). But you also have to look at 1 Cor and other places.

It is an unfortunate truth that the NT doesn't give us a clear formula for salvation. We have Rom 10:5-13, but then we have Jesus' statement in two different places that the way you get eternal life is by following the 10 commandments. Lest you think that's the final answer, you have his various teachings on judgement, none of which seem to base judgement on following the rules.

It's very frustrating. But I think at a minimum Jesus and Paul agree that we don't do anything to make ourselves God's children. He loves us and goes out of his way to save us. And I think they also agree that we are expected to respond to God's love by loving God and our neighbor and showing it in our lives, and that we will be held accountable for that. But he also won't give up on us easily, and in my view doesn't abandon us because we sin. Getting more specific than this seems impossible.

hedrick said:

See Rom 6. For Paul the main significance of a Jesus’ death and Resurrection was that by being in Christ we die and rise with him. That puts us beyond the reach of sin.

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hedrick said:

But he also won't give up on us easily, and in my view doesn't abandon us because we sin. Getting more specific than this seems impossible.

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How do you, can you reconcile these two opposing statements of yours.

As I understand you, one is Taught by Paul, while the other is your personal belief.

It would appear, you would have to hold to the one, and reject the other or you would, negate the one, and believe the other, for these are contrary one to the other.

For Paul, did not preach other Doctrine which he did not receive directly from Jesus.

JIMINZ said:

How do you, can you reconcile these two opposing statements of yours.

As I understand you, one is Taught by Paul, while the other is your personal belief.

It would appear, you would have to hold to the one, and reject the other or you would, negate the one, and believe the other, for these are contrary one to the other.

For Paul, did not preach other Doctrine which he did not receive directly from Jesus.

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I'm not sure quite what inconsistency you see. I've probably answered this elsewhere. In principle, dying with Christ and rising to new life put us beyond the reach of sin. But in practice, Paul is well aware that the old man continues. Chapter 6 goes on to say that having rise with Christ to new life doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for living as Christ wants.

I think Paul's teaching on justification, as well as Jesus' teaching on God's forgiveness, say that, while we are obligated to live as Jesus taught, and are accountable for that, God doesn't give up on us when we sin.

The reason this look complicated is that neither Jesus nor Paul are satisfied with the easy answers. The easy answers would be, on the one side, that God told us what to do, and it's up to us to do it, and on the other side, that God's grace is so strong that it doesn't matter what we do. In fact what both of them said is both that we're accountable for our actions, and that God loves us and won't give up on us.

Hmmm! said:

What is it I need to do now that I have faith? It's a big question I know but this is helping me, and I hope others too, to answer it.

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I think Jesus answered that for us when He answered the Pharisees' question about what the most important commandment is:

hedrick said:

I'm not sure quite what inconsistency you see. I've probably answered this elsewhere. In principle, dying with Christ and rising to new life put us beyond the reach of sin. But in practice, Paul is well aware that the old man continues. Chapter 6 goes on to say that having rise with Christ to new life doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for living as Christ wants.

I think Paul's teaching on justification, as well as Jesus' teaching on God's forgiveness, say that, while we are obligated to live as Jesus taught, and are accountable for that, God doesn't give up on us when we sin.

The reason this look complicated is that neither Jesus nor Paul are satisfied with the easy answers. The easy answers would be, on the one side, that God told us what to do, and it's up to us to do it, and on the other side, that God's grace is so strong that it doesn't matter what we do. In fact what both of them said is both that we're accountable for our actions, and that God loves us and won't give up on us.

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And isn't hell for those He finally gives up on even as He desire that none should go there?

fhansen said:

And isn't hell for those He finally gives up on even as He desire that none should go there?

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That's a reasonable position. However just as I don't think there's a simple, detailed algorithm for salvation, I don't think there's a simple, detailed plan for how God will deal with this. I see signs in various NT books that in some cases he will torture people forever, that they will be destroyed, or that in the end he will be reconciled with all. Lots of people are quite convinced of one of those positions. They all have to downplay some of the evidence, though some more than others. That particular issue isn't allowed in this forum.

hedrick said:

In principle, dying with Christ and rising to new life put us beyond the reach of sin.

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hedrick said:

But in practice, Paul is well aware that the old man continues. Chapter 6 goes on to say that having rise with Christ to new life doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for living as Christ wants.

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What I hear you saying is, the Principle, and the Practice are two different and opposing things, and the Practice is dominant because, the old man continues.

In essence you are saying, the Flesh is stronger than what Jesus accomplished.

These are the places where the OLD MAN is mentioned, where do they mention the Old Man continuing?


Rom_6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph_4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col_3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

If Sin the the Flesh (Old Man) has been destroyed,

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

and the Believer becomes a new Creature IN Christ

2Co_5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How then is this New Creature capable of sinning when Sin no longer resides within his flesh, because, he has died to the flesh, (Old Man).

Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Having received the Holy Spirit of God unto Newness of Life In Christ.

1Jn 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Rom_6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

JIMINZ said:

What I hear you saying is, the Principle, and the Practice are two different and opposing things, and the Practice is dominant because, the old man continues.

In essence you are saying, the Flesh is stronger than what Jesus accomplished.

These are the places where the OLD MAN is mentioned, where do they mention the Old Man continuing?


Rom_6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph_4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col_3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

If Sin the the Flesh (Old Man) has been destroyed,

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

and the Believer becomes a new Creature IN Christ

2Co_5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How then is this New Creature capable of sinning when Sin no longer resides within his flesh, because, he has died to the flesh, (Old Man).

Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Having received the Holy Spirit of God unto Newness of Life In Christ.

1Jn 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Rom_6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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Are you maintaining that everyone who is in Christ is sinless? If not, why not?

hedrick said:

Are you maintaining that everyone who is in Christ is sinless? If not, why not?

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Why are you maintaining that everyone who is (IN) Christ is not sinless, when Scripture, such as the ones I just posted to you say Sinless?

The answer to your question is, an emphatic (YES)!


Joh_8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

JIMINZ said:

Who does God finally give up on, have you not read?

Php 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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We know that some are elected. You're -assuming?- that we know with certainty just who they are. Either way I would assume that not everyone who read or heard those words when they were first written or at any point down through the centuries later on was/are necessarily saved, whether or not they may have applied those words to themselves at the time. We're exhorted to persevere among other things, because of the possibility of our not doing so. And we cannot predict our own perseverance.

JIMINZ said:

Who to you, actually are the Elected?

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Those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

JIMINZ said:

I never said such a thing, your the one who is assuming such things.

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Well, whether or not we apply the words to ourselves or anyone else, assume works, while presume might actually be a better choice. Otherwise, if you maintain that no one can know with 100% certainty whether or not they're saved then we agree, even if we can still have at least a strong level of assurance based on God's promises and trustworthiness combined with an observation of fruit in our lives.

JIMINZ said:

Does the Word of God have to be read or heard in order for them to be true, or are they not applied by God to the Believer through His Grace, part and Parcel of our Salvation.

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The Word of God is true; our interpretation and understanding of it may or may not be true, and may often disagree with the next reader's understanding, who many also claim the guidance of grace.

JIMINZ said:

All that Jesus accomplished in His life and on the Cross are applicable to the Believer IN Christ, whether they read or hear them or not.

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That sounds right. One main thing one must realize with Scripture is that there will be hyperbole and encouragement balanced by warning, admonishing, and instruction.

JIMINZ said:

Applying the words by the Believer is not a prerequisite for the application of them to be in full affect for the Believer.

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No, and the believer can still fail to persevere.

JIMINZ said:

Then I guess we don't agree, my belief is that the Believer should have the assurance within himself that he most definitely is Saved and will be in Heaven.

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Ok, I guess I assumed right then.

JIMINZ said:

If a Believer has any doubt whatsoever, they better study day and night until they know for sure, although God will still let them in even if you don't, it's not by works, but by Grace we are Saved through Faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.

1Co_15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

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Well, we can study till the cows come home (most believers have more than likely been illiterate down through time BTW) and the bible, for its sake, will not answer this question with any kind of certainty other than to come down on the side that we cannot know perfectly what God alone knows. We have limitations, weaknesses, and sin. Humility alone demands that we shouldn't presume.

JIMINZ said:

It really doesn't matter whether or not we agree or believe the same or have read or heard any of it, the word of God IS TRUTH.....Period

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Yes, that's what I stated.

JIMINZ said:

Once a person is Drawn by Gods' Grace to His Son, everything is then applied.
You ca not earn it.

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We can taste of the heavenly gift and later reject it, be a branch grafted in an later cut off, etc. We can "dis-earn" it. We can act unjustly.

JIMINZ said:

NO he can't.

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Of course he can-which his why he's warned not to fail. We have to read the whole bible.

JIMINZ said:

Where do you get that from.

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Scripture