Covenant and New Covenant theology

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
To be clear about your views, you don’t believe in the tribulation and the 1000 year millennium reign after that right?

Based on my understanding of the Book of Revelation, at some point in the future all of the nations will be deceived into becoming part of a one world government.
This will bring about a time of extreme persecution of the Church.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It appears the current COVID-19 crisis is being used to bring about a "cashless" society, and total control of the population.

In the video below a British doctor reveals the truth about this virus.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said the fire comes at the return of Christ.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ will judge both the living and the dead at His appearing.
The judgment of the dead is found at the end of Revelation 20.

.

jgr · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
"thus" implies vs 26 is true because of vs25 correct?

Verse 26 is true, and all other Scripture is true.

"So" means "in this way". Its synonym "thus" means "in this way".

The "way" is described in the previous verses, notably the grafting process which adds both Gentiles and Jews to "all Israel", the Church.

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

Dave L said:
Possibly, but I see the times of the gentiles beginning in that period, the excommunicated Jews placed under wrath as gentiles until the end of the world. And the gospel preached to all nations (gentiles) until the end of the world meaning there is no millennium. (Thanks for all of your enlightening posts).

Thanks for the compliment, Dave.

I agree that this was also a "time of the Gentiles" (and the varying use of that term - "Gentiles" - gets confusing). Also....there's the confusion of two overlapping covenants (I believe) from 30 AD - 70 AD.

Excommunicated Jews due to the Old Covenant were accepted in the New Covenant (through their faith in Jesus). We see that in Acts 2. It was those that rejected the teaching and instruction of Jesus and His disciples in 66-70 AD that experienced the wrath.

Claninja's post here also brings up excellent points about the Northern tribes of Israel being cut off but then restored in the New Covenant.

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"Fullness of the Gentiles " is not about numbers.

This point/event, I believe, was when the "fullness of the Gentiles " had come in (if I have my timeline correct, this was about 10 years after the Cross....and 30 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem):

Acts 10 ~
1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was called the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his household were devout and God-fearing. He gave generously to the people and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about the ninth hour,a he had a clear vision of an angel of God who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”4Cornelius stared at him in fear and asked, “What is it, Lord?”

The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have ascended as a memorial offering before God. 5Now send men to Joppa to call for a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.b”7When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among his attendants. 8He explained what had happened and sent them to Joppa.(Leviticus 11:1-47; Deuteronomy 14:1-21)

9The next day at about the sixth hour,c as the men were approaching the city on their journey, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.11He saw heaven open and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, as well as birds of the air. 13Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”14“No, Lord!” Peter answered. “I have never eaten anything impured or unclean.”15The voice spoke to him a second time: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”16This happened three times, and all at once the sheet was taken back up into heaven.17While Peter was puzzling over the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found Simon’s house and approached the gate. 18They called out to ask if Simon called Peter was staying there.19As Peter continued to reflect on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you.e 20So get up! Go downstairs and accompany them without hesitation, because I have sent them.”21So Peter went down to the menf and said, “Here am I, the one you are looking for. Why have you come?”22“Cornelius the centurion has sent us,” they said. “He is a righteous and God-fearing man with a good reputation among the whole Jewish nation. A holy angel instructed him to request your presence in his home so he could hear a message from you.”23So Peter invited them in as his guests. And the next day he got ready and went with them, accompanied by some of the brothers from Joppa.24The following day he arrived in Caesarea, where Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter was about to enter, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet to worship him. 26But Peter helped him up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”27As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together. 28He said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was invited, I came without objection. I ask, then, why have you sent for me?”30Cornelius answered: “Four days ago I was in my house praying at this, the ninth hour.g Suddenly a man in radiant clothing stood before me 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your gifts to the poor have been remembered before God. 32Therefore send to Joppa for Simon, who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, by the sea.’33So I sent for you immediately, and you were kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has instructed you to tell us.”34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.39We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen— 41not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”(Acts 19:1-7)

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.

Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
But as Romans 11 indicated, there is still a separate destiny for national Israel

Romans 11 doesn't indicate that. Romans 11:11-32 is all one section.

Romans 11:11-32 ~
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles

11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”h 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.i 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Also....there's the confusion of two overlapping covenants (I believe) from 30 AD - 70 AD.

I do not see the overlap in Acts 2:36-41, or 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, or Galatians 3:16-29, or Galatians 4:24-31, or Hebrews 7:12, or Hebrews 10:16-18, or Hebrews 12:18-24.

If there was an overlap why did God rip the temple veil at the moment His Son died on the cross?

Did Peter, or Paul ever say there were two ways of salvation from 30AD till 70AD?

.

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Did Peter, or Paul ever say there were two ways of salvation from 30AD till 70AD?

I'm not referring to salvation. The Mosaic Covenant never took away sin....only pointed out and covered sin repeatedly. All covenants pointed to Christ.

One passage you quoted that supports that:

Galatians 3:24
So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If there was an overlap why did God rip the temple veil at the moment His Son died on the cross?

The torn curtain exposed the empty holy of holies (the ark was gone and the sanctuary no longer represented the place of the presence of God) and the torn curtain also removed the partition of separation between humanity and God. But....as we've been through before:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

What happens if we put the emphasis on the beginning of Hebrews 8:13, and also consider all of the other scripture I gave you?

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

When did the Old Covenant become "obsolete", if it was already obsolete when this verse was written?

...........................................................................

Hebrews 8:13

(ESV) In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

(Geneva) In that he saith a new Testament, he hath abrogate the olde: nowe that which is disanulled and waxed olde, is ready to vanish away.

(Greek NT TR) εν τω λεγειν καινην πεπαλαιωκεν την πρωτην το δε παλαιουμενον και γηρασκον εγγυς αφανισμου

(GW) God made this new promise and showed that the first promise was outdated. What is outdated and aging will soon disappear.

(KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

(KJV+) In that he saith,G3004 A newG2537 covenant, he hath made the first old.G3822 G3588 G4413 NowG1161 that which decayethG3822 andG2532 waxeth oldG1095 is ready to vanish away.G1451 G854

(NKJV) In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

(NLT) When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

(YLT) in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.

.

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
What happens if we put the emphasis on the beginning of Hebrews 8:13, and also consider all of the other scripture I gave you?

It doesn't change anything in my mind. A person still shouldn't overlook the fact that this is pointing out that the Mosaic Covenant had not yet disappeared at that point (although it was obsolete).

BABerean2 said:
When did the Old Covenant become "obsolete", if it was already obsolete when this verse was written?

I believe we don't disagree on that. Jesus's death, Resurrection, and ascension made the Mosaic Covenant obsolete.

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2020

mkgal1 said:
It doesn't change anything in my mind. A person still shouldn't overlook the fact that this is pointing out that the Mosaic Covenant had not yet disappeared at that point (although it was obsolete).

I believe we don't disagree on that. Jesus's death, Resurrection, and ascension made the Mosaic Covenant obsolete.

If your logic is correct, would a rebuilt temple with renewed animal sacrifices bring the Mosaic Covenant back into effect?

.

claninja · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
Yes, I have said many times in this thread, in the body of Christ, we are one, regardless of Jews and Gentiles.

Correct, but this response doesn't address where Paul has hosea 1, which is about the northern kingdom and southern kingdom coming together under 1 head, as fulfilled with the Jews and gentiles coming together under Christ.

Guojing said:
ut as Romans 11 indicated, there is still a separate destiny for national Israel. .

Where does Romans 11 indicate they have a separate destiny?

Paul clearly states, if the natural branches do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in. Are you saying there are 2 roots in Romans 11?

Romans 11:22-23 Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Guojing said:
because of the unconditional covenant he made with Abraham.

Paul directly contradicts your position. The promise was to Abraham and Christ, the singular seed, not the plural seeds.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ.

Guojing said:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

how can all of Israel be saved, and yet only a remnant be saved?

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written

Can Israel be saved outside of Christ?

Guojing said:
We gentiles are coming into the body of christ NOW, while national Israel is blinded.

Does this mean that Israel is saved outside of the body of Christ?

Guojing said:
Once all the gentiles come in, the same national Israel shall be saved. The term Israel in verse 25 and 26 refers to the nation.

What constitutes nation Israel?

claninja · Jul 23, 2020

Original Happy Camper said:
so why were the ten commandments ordered by the LORD to be put in the ark under the mercy seat and the laws that Moses wrote put on the side of the ark?

The laws written by Moses were put on the outside of the ark to be witness against Israel

When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end, 25Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death! Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

I find it interesting that God compares this Book of the law to heaven and earth.

Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Is there a verse that states why God put the 10 commandments inside the ark?

mkgal1 · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If your logic is correct, would a rebuilt temple with renewed animal sacrifices bring the Mosaic Covenant back into effect?

.

No. The purpose of the Mosaic Covenant was to point to Christ. It had temporary purpose. It's purpose has been fulfilled in the life and ministry of Jesus and that covenant and it's associated religious system has disappeared (just as it was expected to).

Galatians 3:24 ~ So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Guojing · Jul 23, 2020

claninja said:
how can all of Israel be saved, and yet only a remnant be saved?

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

You also don't believe in the tribulation and the 1000 year millenial reign right?

If that is the case, you will naturally not accept this

Guojing · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Based on my understanding of the Book of Revelation, at some point in the future all of the nations will be deceived into becoming part of a one world government.
This will bring about a time of extreme persecution of the Church.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It appears the current COVID-19 crisis is being used to bring about a "cashless" society, and total control of the population.

In the video below a British doctor reveals the truth about this virus.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said the fire comes at the return of Christ.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ will judge both the living and the dead at His appearing.
The judgment of the dead is found at the end of Revelation 20.

.

Are you answering that with a Yes?

Guojing · Jul 23, 2020

jgr said:
Verse 26 is true, and all other Scripture is true.

"So" means "in this way". Its synonym "thus" means "in this way".

The "way" is described in the previous verses, notably the grafting process which adds both Gentiles and Jews to "all Israel", the Church.

Okay if you disagree that vs 26 comes after vs 25 takes place, you will naturally disagree with me.

jgr · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
Okay if you disagree that vs 26 comes after vs 25 takes place, you will naturally disagree with me.

Yes, I'll disagree. I and others have presented the evidence why.

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2020

Guojing said:
Are you answering that with a Yes?

No.

.

Guojing · Jul 23, 2020

BABerean2 said:
No.

.

So if you don't believe there will be a Tribulation period where God will deal specifically with the nation Israel, then naturally you will not believe what I am saying about Romans 11:25-26.

Covenant and New Covenant theology

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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