Synergy of Church and State and the Moscow church boom

dzheremi

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Similar things have been happening in post-Soviet Armenia with the Armenian Apostolic Church, Pavel, generally spearheaded by businessmen who like to build churches. The predictable complaint there is "couldn't he have reopened a factory there instead to employ people?", so it seems that no matter what is done or not done, someone or perhaps a lot of someones will be unhappy. (Something different can always be done; this reminds me of the atheist/secular complaint that the Vatican could supposedly sell off its priceless art and eliminate poverty around the world or whatever, which is dumb as all get out.)

Don't mean to drag things off topic (though I don't have much to say about whatever happens in Moscow), but I just wanted to point out that this phenomenon is not just an 'EO thing', despite the fact that it may seem from the outside to be more prominent in EO-majority countries. (I would guess similar things probably happened in a much more direct way in Ethiopia prior to the coup that ended the monarchy there in the 1970s, but I don't know. Today it's probably not like that, as evidenced by the fact that they've got a crazy Pentecostal guy as prime minister. Yikes.)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Today it's probably not like that, as evidenced by the fact that they've got a crazy Pentecostal guy as prime minister. Yikes.)

I got say unhappily when it came to Orthodox Nominalism aka "Being Christian in name only", as far as the Oriental Church goes I saw a lot of that with the Ethiopians, coming from Silicon Valley. And sadly, the most serious Ethiopian Christians were Protestant, (and I think may have had some Pentecostal leanings).
 
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dqhall

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Yes I agree with all that, but having said that it doesn't seem like you read the OP very well, the bottom part of my post that is which was asking about what folks on the board thought about "Synergy" between Church and State". And if you read most of the responses most of the EO were skeptical or at least a little wary of the concept. This more or less makes you look like you are just trying to do some kind of drive by posting, because you have an axe to grind.
I am skeptical about Christians being made to praise the state regardless of the state’s actions. Russia may have opened up some, but I have read the Russian Orthodox church is favored by the state and in turn the Russian Orthodox are expected to praise the state. The Russian government has arrested pastors and closed churches of other denominations.
https://www.newsweek.com/religious-persecution-russia-baptist-pastor-1406134

“Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.” Jesus Christ
 
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dzheremi

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I got say unhappily when it came to Orthodox Nominalism aka "Being Christian in name only", as far as the Oriental Church goes I saw a lot of that with the Ethiopians, coming from Silicon Valley. And sadly, the most serious Ethiopian Christians were Protestant, (and I think may have had some Pentecostal leanings).

This must be a regional thing (as it appears to be in the Coptic Orthodox Church, too), since that's definitely not the case where I'm from in CA, north of the bay area. Yeah, there are some Ethiopians and Eritreans there who say "Just believe in Jesus" or whatever, but these same people actually go to the local OCA and Bulgarian churches (since there are no OO churches in that part of the country). Where I'm from, you can even sometimes see the older ladies with the traditional cross tattoo on their faces (I saw them myself several times when eating at Abyssinia Cafe in downtown Santa Rosa, CA.), which is not a custom practiced by the Protestants!

Anyway, off topic... :D
 
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buzuxi02

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The Russian government has arrested pastors and closed churches of other denominations.
https://www.newsweek.com/religious-persecution-russia-baptist-pastor-1406134
That's a good thing Curbing heresy and that of western NGO'S which is precisely what protestantism is should indeed be stopped. And Greece is more heavy handed with the foreign western religions. Difference being is Greece is a NATO pro western government so the American authorities such as Ambassador Pyatt praises them..
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I am skeptical about Christians being made to praise the state regardless of the state’s actions.

Well coming from a Lockean society of freedom of association and religion, I think it would be in the long term interests of Russian society to establish their own form of that, maybe something comparable to modern Great Britain, that has a national church, but also lets you do your own thing if that is what you choose. (I actually think they sort of have that now, its just that their is less freedom or selection to choose than in Western Europe. You have to stick to picking from a list of church organizations that have been registered with the government for the 20+ years).


But with all the stuff going on in the US present and immediate past, politically and socially, I'm not really sure we got it that much better. Liberal mobs want to dictate things to you, liberal senators and other politicians as well, and well their are some funny things going behind the scenes that makes me think our own elite are being Putinesque when it comes to dealing with their enemies. The only difference is they need to be a bit more cagey about it than over there.
 
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dzheremi

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Well coming from a Lockean society of freedom of association and religion, I think it would be in the long term interests of Russian society to establish their own form of that, maybe something comparable to modern Great Britain, that has a national church, but also lets you do your own thing if that is what you choose.

Why? So that half of Pakistan can move there, and Moscow can be transformed into something resembling beautiful downtown Karachi? How is that a net benefit to Russia?

I dunno, man...this is definitely not the place for two non-EO people to argue with each other, but that seems weird. Russia already went through its modernizing quite a while ago, right? It's not like it's the 1500s over there anymore. So they don't want modern Western pseudo-values based around nebulous 'rights' claims to destabilize their societies as is clearly happening in the USA right now (as you yourself admit elsewhere in your post). I don't see what's wrong with that, even if it means there will not be a Coptic Orthodox Church in Moscow (I mean, that already happened two years ago, but y'know, it's the principle of the thing; the Coptic Orthodox Church is not some western NGO in the first place). Boo hoo. I'll have to any one of 60 other coutries. Wah. That's totally worth completely messing with the fabric of their society, because I feel bad that Moscow will not be London. :rolleyes: (I know that you yourself are not taking it that far, but that's how such things start: you look up to the other country, you start imitating its fashions of thought, advocating for XYZ, etc.)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Why? So that half of Pakistan can move there, and Moscow can be transformed into something resembling beautiful downtown Karachi? How is that a net benefit to Russia?

I dunno, man...this is definitely not the place for two non-EO people to argue with each other, but that seems weird. Russia already went through its modernizing quite a while ago, right? It's not like it's the 1500s over there anymore. So they don't want modern Western pseudo-values based around nebulous 'rights' claims to destabilize their societies as is clearly happening in the USA right now (as you yourself admit elsewhere in your post). I don't see what's wrong with that, even if it means there will not be a Coptic Orthodox Church in Moscow (I mean, that already happened two years ago, but y'know, it's the principle of the thing; the Coptic Orthodox Church is not some western NGO in the first place). Boo hoo. I'll have to any one of 60 other coutries. Wah. That's totally worth completely messing with the fabric of their society, because I feel bad that Moscow will not be London. :rolleyes: (I know that you yourself are not taking it that far, but that's how such things start: you look up to the other country, you start imitating its fashions of thought, advocating for XYZ, etc.)

I said the above because of my own experience growing up as cradle Lutheran. You cannot really force someone to continue the faith they grew up with if they had a bad experience with it etc. and want to leave.

In America we actually have had some positive things coming from Freedom of Religion, and yes that extends to Orthodoxy too. Especially if you read the testimonies of Ex-Protestants etc. For myself, and for many others that freedom of inquiry and conscience actually lead them to the historic Church etc. But irregardless, it is a fools errand to try to force someone long term in that regard, at best you can only have them paying you lip service but plotting what they will do when your back is turned. It's like that old Princess Leia quote from the original Star Wars of "Lord Vader, the more you try to tighten your grip the more star systems fall through your fingers..."
 
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dzheremi

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I don't mean to discount your experience as a Lutheran, or deny the good things that come from having freedom of religion in America (I'm a testament to it; I was raised in the Presbyterian church). My only point is that Russia is not like America or western Europe, and I don't see that as an inherently bad thing.
 
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buzuxi02

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said the above because of my own experience growing up as cradle Lutheran. You cannot really force someone to continue the faith they grew up with if they had a bad experience with it etc. and want to leave.
There is no need to force someone to stay as any bad experience is not a reflection of your own culture. It's precisely because Lutheranism accepts seperation of church and state this occurs.
A few or even many bad apples cannot make one abandon his culture as the individual realizes his parents, grandparents, cousins, uncles are the main faces of his religion. Family members who are Priests and monks and so on.
It is a seperation as a form of neo nestorianism, where a dichotomy must be made with oneself where your faith is a separate entity from the rest of your culture.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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There is no need to force someone to stay as any bad experience is not a reflection of your own culture.

I'm talking about family pressure from the parents. All 3 of us boys left the Lutheran church (didn't go to service anymore) when we hit college age and and left our parents house never to come back, except to maybe catch a service or two when visiting them but that was it.
 
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buzuxi02

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I'm talking about family pressure from the parents. All 3 of us boys left the Lutheran church (didn't go to service anymore) when we hit college age and and left our parents house never to come back, except to maybe catch a service or two when visiting them but that was it.
Yes but it would probably never of happened if the society you lived in was fairly homogenous where your faith shaped your history, your music, your cuisine, etc. Most likely you are still binded to some of these because even american secular culture still appreciates a holiday like Christmas (though not for long) and maybe even Easter.
 
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It's mostly good as the Russian state is favorable towards Christian morality. Also the backing of the state tends to keep Christianity in the limelight and not towards extinction.
This is the opposite of Greece which is the only country on earth to officially have Christianity as it's official religion. While Orthodoxy is codified in the Greek constitution the country must uphold EU values. This means the church cannot speak up against abortion nor against LGBTQ lobbyists, and the government fights against it's own Christian inheritance..
That's not entirely accurate.

Malta, Costa Rica, Lichtenstein, Monaco, and, Vatican City (no surprise) have Catholicism as their official religion.
England (and some crown dependencies) have the Anglican Church of England as their official state religion, but that does not apply to the whole of the United Kingdom. The Nordic Countries also have Lutheranism as their official religion. Plus, Finland has both the Lutheran Church and the Finnish Orthodox Church as its official religions.


This must be a regional thing (as it appears to be in the Coptic Orthodox Church, too), since that's definitely not the case where I'm from in CA, north of the bay area. Yeah, there are some Ethiopians and Eritreans there who say "Just believe in Jesus" or whatever, but these same people actually go to the local OCA and Bulgarian churches (since there are no OO churches in that part of the country). Where I'm from, you can even sometimes see the older ladies with the traditional cross tattoo on their faces (I saw them myself several times when eating at Abyssinia Cafe in downtown Santa Rosa, CA.), which is not a custom practiced by the Protestants!

Anyway, off topic... :D
There's OO churches in the Bay Area! :p I haven't looked into the Ethiopians, but just in the San Jose area there's a Syriac Orthodox parish or too. I was going to visit them one Sunday to hear what Aramaic sounded like (if they still worship in it), but then the pandemic started...

But on this topic, I imagine that a similar thing happened with Ethiopia under the Derg as what happened with others under Communism. A friend of mine who grew up ROCOR and I were chatting about this; there seems to be a generation that is Orthodox, regularly goes to church, but doesn't know much about Orthodox theology, history etc unless in the frame of Russian history, Arab history, whatever. Part of this may be because during the Cold War the Church, even here in the USA but for different reasons, was spending more energy on just trying to survive than sufficiently educating people on what it means to be Orthodox, what makes Orthodoxy different from all these other Christian groups, etc etc. In traditionally Orthodox countries like Russia before the Revolution, Orthodoxy was taught in the public schools. However, when people started moving to the USA and Canada, both the laity and the Church didn't realize for a while that it was their responsibility and not the schools system to teach their kids religion. There is a need for a proper religious education and I think that if we actually made the right push for it, then it could help not only keep people in the Church, but also bring others to her because then people could better explain to their Protestant or non-religious colleagues and friends why they celebrate Pascha/Easter on different days than the West, etc.
 
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