Synergy of Church and State and the Moscow church boom

[Pavel Mosko]

There has been a boom in church growth in the city of Moscow, 200 churches in the last 10 years. And this video reminds me of some conversations from 13-15 years ago....

I'm curious what folks think about the notion of "Synergy" of Church and state. Years ago, I had some interactions with an EO on Orthodox Christianity.net on that concept. He was extremely enthusiastic on the concept especially in light of some OO vs. EO type discussions where what he said sounded to me be a kind of "might makes right" type idea, and well if you live by the sword (or state) you tend to die with the loss of that backing at some point in time.

 

[Chesterton]

200 churches? Just in that city? Wow.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it can be good, it can be bad. depends on who is at the proverbial helm. or rather, depends on if folks realize that Christ is at the helm.

 

[rusmeister]

In our time, it's mostly bad with a little good. The mostly bad is that it gives a strong impression of the Church approving of the State's actions, and enrages people who are outraged when evils are uncovered that the Patriarchate is generally silent about. The P**** Riot case was where I first began to really notice this.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

In our time, it's mostly bad with a little good. The mostly bad is that it gives a strong impression of the Church approving of the State's actions, and enrages people who are outraged when evils are uncovered that the Patriarchate is generally silent about. The P**** Riot case was where I first began to really notice this.

ah that band and its controversy not expecting that to come up here.

I know a little bit about the controversy with gays and the state etc. Are you saying their should have been some criticism of Putin? Like that Holy Fool who gave Ivan the Terrible the bloody piece of meat during Lent to rebuke his killing of his political rivals.

 

[Markie Boy]

True growth is often slow. I am in the RCC, and they had a boom of growth after WWII - lot's of buildings and people - if that's what you call growth.

But by what we have seen, and have today, I think it was not genuine conversion, and solid growth built on the rock. Bricks and head count are not a measurement of growth of the Kingdom of God.

We see the effects of that today in the RCC - which is imploding at light speed.

 

[buzuxi02]

It's mostly good as the Russian state is favorable towards Christian morality. Also the backing of the state tends to keep Christianity in the limelight and not towards extinction.
This is the opposite of Greece which is the only country on earth to officially have Christianity as it's official religion. While Orthodoxy is codified in the Greek constitution the country must uphold EU values. This means the church cannot speak up against abortion nor against LGBTQ lobbyists, and the government fights against it's own Christian inheritance..

 

[rusmeister]

ah that band and its controversy not expecting that to come up here.

I know a little bit about the controversy with gays and the state etc. Are you saying their should have been some criticism of Putin? Like that Holy Fool who gave Ivan the Terrible the bloody piece of meat during Lent to rebuke his killing of his political rivals.

I am certainly not saying that it’s OK to do political protests in church. But it IS true that rather than take the opportunity to declare forgiveness of the foolish young women, and the vital fact that the forgiveness would only do them good if they admitted there was something to forgive, and distancing itself from heavy-handed government action, the Patriarchate was silent while they were sentenced to two years of prison. All that did was make them, and everyone who didn’t care about what they did hate us more, and see the Church as an arm of the State.

 

[rusmeister]

It's mostly good as the Russian state is favorable towards Christian morality. Also the backing of the state tends to keep Christianity in the limelight and not towards extinction.
This is the opposite of Greece which is the only country on earth to officially have Christianity as it's official religion. While Orthodoxy is codified in the Greek constitution the country must uphold EU values. This means the church cannot speak up against abortion nor against LGBTQ lobbyists, and the government fights against it's own Christian inheritance..

I’d warn you that the Russian state being favorable to Christian morality is a very temporary thing, with no real concern for it.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Wow when I heard about that incident I didn't realize or remember that was inside a Cathedral and the long prison sentence. I can definitely see them spending a few days to a week in jail and some kind of fine, or community service for a stunt like that.

 

[rusmeister]

Wow when I heard about that incident I didn't realize or remember that was inside a Cathedral and the long prison sentence. I can definitely see them spending a few days to a week in jail and some kind of fine, or community service for a stunt like that.

The main thing for me was that the Patriarchate was silent throughout the process. It was their main cathedral in Moscow, and they were technically the offended party. Silence. Instead of speaking of what Christian forgiveness is and means. They could have gotten a lighter sentence; I personally thought that 6 months of weekend-only community service 9-5 working at an Orthodox hospice, orphanage, or soup kitchen the very thing, to work alongside the people they had offended, doing good, and keeping their lives and whatever passed for employment, etc. They had done other disgusting things before that, but still, it was a great chance to show Russians what being Christian means, instead of making up laws about “offending our feelings” and throwing people in prison for doing it, and making us hated and even a little feared by the millions of ordinary non-believers. By their silence, they helped the hate and fear against us become more entrenched, when they could have acted in a way that might have led some to repentance instead of hardening their hearts.

 

[Phronema]

True growth is often slow. I am in the RCC, and they had a boom of growth after WWII - lot's of buildings and people - if that's what you call growth.

But by what we have seen, and have today, I think it was not genuine conversion, and solid growth built on the rock. Bricks and head count are not a measurement of growth of the Kingdom of God.

We see the effects of that today in the RCC - which is imploding at light speed.

I always attributed that more to Vatican II honestly, but I could be mistaken as I didn't look into it too deeply. In fact the changes made by Vatican II were THE deciding factor for me when I was looking to convert to one of the ancient, and Apostolic faiths as I couldn't find a traditional Latin Mass. That said I'm glad I went Orthodox at this point, and of course I say all this meaning no offense to Roman Catholics.

I’d warn you that the Russian state being favorable to Christian morality is a very temporary thing, with no real concern for it.

Is that to say that the laws being instituted today are a result of politiking, and nothing more? If so, what is it the government, or Putin is trying to achieve by that politiking?

 

[rusmeister]

Is that to say that the laws being instituted today are a result of politiking, and nothing more? If so, what is it the government, or Putin is trying to achieve by that politiking?

Yes. You should note that Putin himself divorced, which doesn't exactly indicate holding the family in a high and holy estate. Right now they know they have a few blocks of people that are solidly against same-sex perversion (even if many are fine with opposite-sex sin) - a majority (but not all) of the Orthodox: the big city folk with modern educations and sensibilities often come out in favor, also, large swaths of what would be flyover country in the US oppose it - so it's a way to draw them in to vote? when otherwise they would say, "Why should we?". But since the propaganda of our movies and TV shows continues apace, traditional views will continue to lose ground, as no clear basis for this is offered. Like the sexual anarchy lobby, the politicians appealing to traditional and common sense sensibilities also rely on sentiment, a passing thing.

 

[Markie Boy]

I always attributed that more to Vatican II honestly, but I could be mistaken as I didn't look into it too deeply. In fact the changes made by Vatican II were THE deciding factor for me when I was looking to convert to one of the ancient, and Apostolic faiths as I couldn't find a traditional Latin Mass. That said I'm glad I went Orthodox at this point, and of course I say all this meaning no offense to Roman Catholics.



Is that to say that the laws being instituted today are a result of politiking, and nothing more? If so, what is it the government, or Putin is trying to achieve by that politiking?

No offense taken - I'd say you made a great choice going Orthodox.

 

[dqhall]

There has been a boom in church growth in the city of Moscow, 200 churches in the last 10 years. And this video reminds me of some conversations from 13-15 years ago....

I'm curious what folks think about the notion of "Synergy" of Church and state. Years ago, I had some interactions with an EO on Orthodox Christianity.net on that concept. He was extremely enthusiastic on the concept especially in light of some OO vs. EO type discussions where what he said sounded to me be a kind of "might makes right" type idea, and well if you live by the sword (or state) you tend to die with the loss of that backing at some point in time.

Is this the same Russia recently accused of offering Taliban soldiers bounty money for assassinating American troops in Afghanistan?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Is this the same Russia recently accused of offering Taliban soldiers bounty money for assassinating American troops in Afghanistan?

Yes but I don't see what that has to do with the OP or the basic topic/theme of the board, other than the tangential fact that both are about Russia. Unless of course you got some dirt on the Russian Patriarch, that he knew about X and encouraged Putin to do that......



And at this time I will point out tangentially that my last name is Mosko. An Americanized Czechoslovak surname name that sounds exactly like Moscow, especially the way English people (e.g. - news anchor Peter Jennings) pronounce that city, and have always had people think I was Russian even when I went with the English, "Paul" first name in my younger years. They also had a tendency to want to go out of their way to misspell my last name as Moscow...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is this the same Russia recently accused of offering Taliban soldiers bounty money for assassinating American troops in Afghanistan?

even if true (and I doubt that it is), what does that have to do with anything?

 

[buzuxi02]

But by what we have seen, and have today, I think it was not genuine conversion, and solid growth built on the rock. Bricks and head count are not a measurement of growth of the Kingdom of God.

There are no more true conversions. It now only lasts one generation. You maybe christian but this does not guarantee your children will be.
Christian's cannot transform the culture around them because not only is it illegal to do so, your attempts will fail when another supposed Christian sect opposes your point of view as archaic and backwards and jusgemental. Christianity has now returned to a cult status.

 

[dqhall]

Yes but I don't see what that has to do with the OP or the basic topic/theme of the board, other than the tangential fact that both are about Russia. Unless of course you got some dirt on the Russian Patriarch, that he knew about X and encouraged Putin to do that......



And at this time I will point out tangentially that my last name is Mosko. An Americanized Czechoslovak surname name that sounds exactly like Moscow, especially the way English people (e.g. - news anchor Peter Jennings) pronounce that city, and have always had people think I was Russian even when I went with the English, "Paul" first name in my younger years. They also had a tendency to want to go out of their way to misspell my last name as Moscow...

Reverend Richard Wurmbrand organized an underground church network in the Soviet Union country of Romania. He was arrested and continued to preach in prison. A western church organization learned about him and paid a ransom to get him out. He came to the U.S. and organized a missionary outreach, “Jesus to the Communist World.”

I would not trust church building alone as a sign of holiness. There were many churches in Nazi Germany. I think the pope was not able to do much to oppose Italy entering an alliance with Hitler.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Reverend Richard Wurmbrand organized an underground church network in the Soviet Union country of Romania. He was arrested and continued to preach in prison. A western church organization learned about him and paid a ransom to get him out. He came to the U.S. and organized a missionary outreach, “Jesus to the Communist World.”

I would not trust church building alone as a sign of holiness. There were many churches in Nazi Germany. I think the pope was not able to do much to oppose Italy entering an alliance with Hitler.

Yes I agree with all that, but having said that it doesn't seem like you read the OP very well, the bottom part of my post that is which was asking about what folks on the board thought about "Synergy" between Church and State". And if you read most of the responses most of the EO were skeptical or at least a little wary of the concept. This more or less makes you look like you are just trying to do some kind of drive by posting, because you have an axe to grind.