Anti-Maskers: Heavy on passion, light on facts

Sparagmos · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
Yes, but again no one is immortal you cannot base your life on fear over those small percentages of people who die. As to the long-term effects there is no way to know those whether three million people have it or 300 million people have it.

Wearing a mask so that someone else doesn’t have to spend a month suffering in the hospital and going bankrupt isn’t living in fear, it’s being a decent human being. It is incredibly selfish to refuse to do something that will keep others from suffering and financial ruin because it is inconvenient. When I put on my mask I’m not feeling fear, it’s no different from covering your mouth when you cough.

RDKirk · Jul 1, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
The people are over the top granted. I take issue with your "noninvasive", breathing in your hot carbon dioxide rich exhaust in the middle of Summer time heat does not match my definition of that term, other than it does not require surgery or something like that.

There are actually anecdotal cases of people passing out from wearing the masks because they forget to take them off when they enter their car etc.

I myself can barely tolerate the masks. I use them because I have to as far as complying with store regulations and putting people around me at ease, but I am not going to paint a happy face on it. I can use them long enough just to buy what I need, or do my errand and that is it. I got lots of claustrophobia and visceral fear/sensation of suffocating using them and that is not anything you are going to rationalize away.

It is amazing how we have let our rights be suffocated this last year. I would not be so angry about it, if we were consistent, not arbitrary, and Draconian about such things.

I spent two weeks of an Asian summer in MOPP-4 gear. I whined about that at the time.

But I laugh at a covid-19 face mask.

wing2000 · Jul 1, 2020

ArmenianJohn said:
What bothers me most as a Christian is how some of them invoke God's name as though God is somehow on the side of anti-mask. If I were pleading the case for pro-mask (which I am) I could easily invoke God's Word with reasons for it, but I would probably not, even though I know I'd be right. It is serious business to throw God's name around especially in a secular setting and I would not do it lightly. It would be pandering and I'd be loathe to do it. But even if I did, I'd be in the right, unlike the people in the video who are very, very wrong. And it's downright scary to me that some of these people really believe what they're saying.

....there's a long tradition of invoking God's name to support ignorance in this country.

Paulos23 · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
so now you are accusing me of having a death wish and wanting people to die? No I have just been around nearly 29 years and have long sense concluded that no one is immortal.

Sorry, but that is the way you come across, that you don't care about people dying.

Pavel Mosko · Jul 1, 2020

RDKirk said:
I spent two weeks of an Asian summer in MOPP-4 gear. I whined about that at the time.

But I laugh at a covid-19 face mask.

View attachment 280031

Well I guess it is a good thing you are Army tough. Or is it USMC tough?

wing2000 · Jul 1, 2020

...from a retail store owner in Phoenix:
Bingham had grown frustrated when, 10 days into the city order, some people still weren't covering their faces when they came into the shop. A few people became angry with her when she asked them to wear a mask.

"It's such a minimal, easy thing to do, and I'm asking so nicely. Well, not anymore, but I did," Bingham said.

Antique Sugar, Phoenix vintage shop, goes viral for requiring masks

RDKirk · Jul 1, 2020

GreatLakes4Ever said:
Because in order to get to herd immunity we need at least 230 million or so Americans to get it. Using your optimistic numbers we are at 27 million. So we need 8 people to have it for every one person has had it so far (assuming your 10 to 1 ratio is correct). Taken how many have died so far times 8 as well and we end up with one million dead. If those sick people pile up quickly and overwhelm our health care system that number would will be higher.

Edit: Your plan also means between you, your mom, and your sister, odds say two of you will have to get this to achieve herd immunity.

Covid-19 may throw the concept of herd immunity right out the door. It may even through the validity of testing for antibodies right out the door.

Immunologists are looking into the puzzling question of why a huge percentage people who suffer the "correct" covid-19 symptoms (including the internal symptoms identified by medical tests) and survive yet test negative for antibodies.

They have determined so far that while most survivors manage to survive because of the active response of the lymphoid system--the production of antibodies--a large percentage of survivors never produced antibodies in discernible quantities. They survived by the myloid response of individual infected cells (which includes the "cytokine storm," which does not produce antibodies. But without antibodies, they remain susceptible to contracting the disease again.

So we can't look at herd immunity in terms of the number of people who have suffered the disease, because a significant percentage of them remain susceptible. This might even be an issue with developing a vaccine until medical scientists discover a way to make sure the response to the vaccine is lymphoid rather than myloid.

RDKirk · Jul 1, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Well I guess it is a good thing you are Army tough. Or is it USMC tough?

Joint forces tough. I was Air Force, but I spent half my career with all services. My favorite bosses were Marines.

GreatLakes4Ever · Jul 1, 2020

RDKirk said:
Covid-19 may throw the concept of herd immunity right out the door. It may even through the validity of testing for antibodies right out the door.

Immunologists are looking into the puzzling question of why a huge percentage people who suffer the "correct" covid-19 symptoms (including the internal symptoms identified by medical tests) and survive yet test negative for antibodies.

They have determined so far that while most survivors manage to survive because of the active response of the lymphoid system--the production of antibodies--a large percentage of survivors never produced antibodies in discernible quantities. They survived by the myloid response of individual infected cells (which includes the "cytokine storm," which does not produce antibodies. But without antibodies, they remain susceptible to contracting the disease again.

So we can't look at herd immunity in terms of the number of people who have suffered the disease, because a significant percentage of them remain susceptible. This might even be an issue with developing a vaccine until medical scientists discover a way to make sure the response to the vaccine is lymphoid rather than myloid.

And that’s the more terrifying fear with shooting for herd immunity. We may kill 1 million or more people and achieve close to nothing in the process.

dogs4thewin · Jul 1, 2020

Paulos23 said:
Sorry, but that is the way you come across, that you don't care about people dying.

I will say that if someone requested me to wear a mask I would. Case and point week after next ( if the virus does not get in the way I am going to my day camp for people with disabilities I have gone to for years. They are requesting ( though not mandating that campers wear masks. I will probably wear one for those four hours or so simply to hopefully encourage some of the younger campers ( as young as four to wear theirs.

Belk · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
Or we could not wear them and have it spread quicker. Which while the cases are going up the deaths are going down. In other words fewer people are dying ( of course the death numbers are going up, but for example it has been several days now since I have seen 1k+ deaths and yet the case numbers are going up more quickly.

You are aware that even those who do not die can have serious ongoing health issues?

dogs4thewin · Jul 1, 2020

Belk said:
You are aware that even those who do not die can have serious ongoing health issues?

yes although the extent of that will not be known for years.

Hank77 · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
I will say that if someone requested me to wear a mask I would. Case and point week after next ( if the virus does not get in the way I am going to my day camp for people with disabilities I have gone to for years. They are requesting ( though not mandating that campers wear masks. I will probably wear one for those four hours or so simply to hopefully encourage some of the younger campers ( as young as four to wear theirs.

Why not encourage everyone to wear one by setting an example in public? It doesn't make any sense to just encourage children to wear them.

Hank77 · Jul 1, 2020

lasthero said:
I'm actually experiencing some of this right now. My grandmother was admitted to the hospital yesterday and had to go to the ICU. There weren't able to give her a lot of the care she could've gotten otherwise. She passed away this morning.

I'm not going to say that she wouldn't have died if they weren't so busy right now, but just being at the hospital, it's clear that they're being pushed. That's not a good thing for anyone.

I'm sorry to hear that your grandma passed away. I know when my grandma died I really missed her and even today I wish she were here to talk to and hug.

Hank77 · Jul 1, 2020

Sparagmos said:
I wonder if that is more reflective of the region? We’re all wearing them here in the marches I’ve been in.

I only know from the photos and videos that have been posted online.

Belk · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
yes although the extent of that will not be known for years.

I see. so... Let them eat cake?

Halbhh · Jul 1, 2020

We've slowed it down enough to help create this situation.

Most people don't know anyone close personally (well) that has died from it. Not yet. (For most, not yet inside their circle of 100 to 300 closer relationships)

Lemme speak to a wider set of people here...

This virus has killed 130,000 Americans even with all the effort to slow it down. How many is that though?

130,000 is 0.04% of Americans (4/100ths of 1%). Significantly less than 1 in a 1,000....

Dangerous to those with conditions like diabetes, hypertension, being overweight even, being old....and it seems even those with type-A blood will get sicker. (* see reference at bottom)

If you are healthy (and not type A blood), you probably would have mild or little symptoms (though a much smaller number of "healthy" people have died of it).

But, the problem is that if we all stop wearing masks, and it spreads even faster...some of those other people we could spread it to can be people that aren't nearly as healthy as you or me. (I'm trying to talk to most people here at this point)

Even today, with about 130,000 dead in the U.S., it's already about 3 times as deadly as a typical bad flu despite all our effort to stop it. And that's in only 5-6 months.

--------------
Type A Blood: more danger: "...the findings suggest that people with blood type A face a 50 percent greater risk of needing oxygen support or a ventilator should they become infected with the novel coronavirus. In contrast, people with blood type O appear to have about a 50 percent reduced risk of severe COVID-19."
Genes, Blood Type Tied to Risk of Severe COVID-19

ArmenianJohn said:
The anti-maskers in this video have a lot to say but pretty much none of it is factual.

What bothers me most as a Christian is how some of them invoke God's name as though God is somehow on the side of anti-mask. If I were pleading the case for pro-mask (which I am) I could easily invoke God's Word with reasons for it, but I would probably not, even though I know I'd be right. It is serious business to throw God's name around especially in a secular setting and I would not do it lightly. It would be pandering and I'd be loathe to do it. But even if I did, I'd be in the right, unlike the people in the video who are very, very wrong. And it's downright scary to me that some of these people really believe what they're saying.

It's odd that while I praise God for the fact that masks help control the disease and it's such an easy solution there are people who are cursing this solution. I just imagine someone like the ones in the video praying and asking God for help with the coronavirus pandemic, and asking God "Can you give us an effective way to control and reduce this pandemic, something that doesn't require injections or medical treatment, something that is very cheap or free and that anyone can do?" and then God saying "Sure - you can use masks, even ones that are made from fabric you have lying around the house, and it will be cheap or free, it is very easy to use and won't have side effects and it will be effective at stopping the spread of the virus." Then, with that, the praying person responds with "nah, I don't like it, it's just not comfortable, I don't like how it looks, it doesn't let me breathe", etc.

And for every single one of the people in the video who are whining about masks, I'm sure that if they wind up in a hospital with any problem they will fully expect every nurse, doctor, orderly, etc. to be wearing masks the entire time they interact with them. I'm sure if they needed surgery they would freak out of the surgeon mentioned he'd be doing it without a mask. "Well, ma'am, the mask doesn't feel comfortable and your surgery is going to be 4 hours or more and I don't want to die from wearing the mask, so I'll be operating on you without a mask or gloves..." Let's see if they would go for that...

It's unbelievable. People want something effective, easy, cheap/free, non-invasive and when God hands it to them on a silver platter they look for and find irrational reasons to reject it.

Halbhh · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
Except that the vast majority of people are fine and in many cases have it and get over it having never known, so why would millions die? Also, actually if we are going to have an increase in numbers now would actually probably be one of the "better" times to have it anyway.

Here's how "millions" (1 to 2 million) could have died from it in the U.S.: if we had done nothing at all, not even one thing.

No shutdowns of any kind, no social distancing, no masks ever. Then that worst case projection could have happened.

But, we did do something. A lot. So, a million won't be dying here.

Today, it seems unlikely that even 300,000 could die in the U.S. from this virus, now.

Because hundreds of millions of Americans will wear masks for a few months. That's why.

And, wonderfully, there is constant effort to reduce the number of the severely ill that are dying, every day, with new treatments. And a reasonable chance at a vaccine also, on the way, by next year.

Also, you might find interesting my short post just above, post #77.

loveofourlord · Jul 1, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
couple of reasons one is that quite frankly we do not believe the numbers ( not that we do not believe that people have died that is not what we are saying, but basically that are claiming deaths were from the virus when that played either no role or a very small role. Also, we just do not like having masks on particularly me as if it is just my mom and I waiting somewhere we take off and I need help putting them back on. Moreover, mom has spoken to at least two medical professional who have stated that it was political one and two at least one said he did not wear a mask in public ( unless required to do so). I have also known other medical professionals who ( if they think the virus is very serious are NOT acting like it.)

Please this has been pointed out billions of times, the normal deaths vs the actual deaths this year are FAR higher then reported, so no, they are not over reported, get your facts straight.

Sparagmos · Jul 1, 2020

My gue

Hank77 said:
I only know from the photos and videos that have been posted online.

That’s nuts, but here in Portland pretty much everyone was wearing masks everywhere even before it was mandated (not so much in the suburbs.). And we are not able to social distance much during protests so it would feel really crazy to not wear masks. But I live in a kind of a bubble here.

Anti-Maskers: Heavy on passion, light on facts

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