Shaun King Calls Jesus Statues & Images Are a Form of White Supremacy & Should Be Removed

I Love History & Archaeology said:

You know what I did to get to where I am? By not blaming other people. I am not stooping to where you are. You have to find the strength yourself. And by me giving you sympathy, you will never improve. Improve yourself. That is what I learned. If black lives matter so much then why don't they care about their own lives as much as they say that it should matter? I see black on black crime a lot but no one talks about it. (this is another topic.) So why should I bend over backwards for you? I could easily apply the house fire thing you used to my people and act like I am all alone but I'm not. The unity is in the people. Be the unity if there is none and don't blame other people to use as a crutch to walk.

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Preach!!!

lsume said:

You might want to read the book “Like a Mighty Wind”. It’s about the Indonesian revival began in the 60’s.

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You might want to read what was written by all those who gave this book "one star" reviews.

"A tree is known by its fruit", and this preacher is a known fraudster whose behaviors reveal someone who is a lover of money at heart. We shouldn't believe such a one's claims concerning miracles. On the other hand, I've witnessed miracles first hand, owing to one wonder-working, miraculous myrrh streaming icon. Others bear similar testimonies.

But thanks for the recommendation anyhow. I do appreciate it.

lsume said:

It appears that you have a structured belief worked out over some period of time. If you seek The Truth, you will find It.

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My belief is based on how God used iconography to convey religious and spiritual truth throughout Biblical and Church history, Christians don’t need to seek out truth, they already have it in Christ.

Tropical Wilds said:

I always find it fascinating that when talks of equality, BLM, and proper and equal representation occur, the first thing that seems to happen is the non-oppressed complain that it’s unfair, then it turns into a “be scared, the blacks are coming” tirade which is, in and of itself, both racist and dripping in privilege.

White Christians are, by an uncontested margin, the most well-represented segment of America. To compare anything occurring to Christians in the US to the mass murder of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, people of color, and suppressive persons is probably one of the top 5 silliest things I have ever heard on these forums.

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Perhaps people who are able to live in peace are happy to keep it that way. Maybe they don't want to see their cars burned and shops looted. The idea of white privilege is just garbage. The USA elected a black president. Ben Carson ran for office. You have or have had numbers of non-white Americans in high office. The black/white culture war is destructive and no one will win this one. For sure, root out the discrimination in the police force. I'd charge the officers with the crime and their bosses who cover it up as accessories. Violence in the streets just reinforces prejudice. Most police are not criminals.

DebbieJ said:

Although I do not agree with graven images and sacred icons, it is still private property. Let's not accuse all of the priests as pedophiles. If not for Catholic missionaries, the world would not be Christianized at all. It's still the Lord's church. I'm not even Catholic, but I give credit where it's due.

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The point I was trying to get at was it's easy to scapegoat the RCC and that's why they "images" were selected. Not only are they easily scapegoated, but they're easily scapegoated covertly.Had he named the RCC instead of the more generic term "images" he'd be the one being vilified.

Just ask John Lennon (oh, wait; he's dead :o ).

I Love History & Archaeology said:

You are acting though as if you are under attack and all alone because you are black.

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I'm a white dude, and I don't feel under attack. I see my black neighbors are under attack. My response to what I see is something called empathy.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I'm a white dude, and I don't feel under attack. I see my black neighbors are under attack. My response to what I see is something called empathy.

-CryptoLutheran

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Really now?


Do you see why now this BLM stuff is so dangerous? It's because of this evil man right here. (It's Karl Marx if you didn't know. He made the Communist Manifesto.)



Guess what what co-founder of BLM says that BLM is? A Marxist group. And they are going to use every bit of what Karl Marx said in his silly little socialist utopia book to get what they want.

Here's the link to prove the truth in what I say:
It's more than feeling "empathy" like you say that you feel for your black neighbors. It is a complete takeover of everything and it is truly evil. This is not what the Lord Jesus Christ wanted at all! BLM is an evil group. It's Marxism covered up with "caring and empathy" for the black race. It is a wolf in a sheep's costume ready to strike. George Floyd was just an excuse to do all of this vandalism and everything else. He has nothing to do with the narrative of the evilness of BLM. They have soiled the man's reputation and now they are going for the kill. It is truly insane.

I Love History & Archaeology said:

Really now?

Do you see why now this BLM stuff is so dangerous? It's because of this evil man right here. (It's Karl Marx if you didn't know. He made the Communist Manifesto.)

Guess what what co-founder of BLM says that BLM is? A Marxist group.

Here's the link to prove the truth in what I say:

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The irony in that is that Karl Marx himself was probably far more racist than any of the people whose statues these morons toppled.

Al Masihi said:

The irony in that is that Karl Marx himself was probably far more racist than any of the people whose statues these morons toppled.

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preach!

Josheb said:

The point I was trying to get at was it's easy to scapegoat the RCC and that's why they "images" were selected. Not only are they easily scapegoated, but they're easily scapegoated covertly.Had he named the RCC instead of the more generic term "images" he'd be the one being vilified.

Just ask John Lennon (oh, wait; he's dead ).

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I don't think the RCC is anywhere close to being the "worst" at Europeanizing images of Jesus. There are a lot of darker-skinned depictions of Jesus and Mary that I've seen even from my viewpoint outside of Catholicism. I've seen some cases of Catholic churches simply go to whatever color their parishioners are.

Rather, from my observation, the most doggedly Europeanized images of Jesus (blond, blue-eyed, the whole gamut) are from white evangelicals right into the present day.

I Love History & Archaeology said:

Really now?

Do you see why now this BLM stuff is so dangerous? It's because of this evil man right here. (It's Karl Marx if you didn't know. He made the Communist Manifesto.)

Guess what what co-founder of BLM says that BLM is? A Marxist group. And they are going to use every bit of what Karl Marx said in his silly little socialist utopia book to get what they want.

Here's the link to prove the truth in what I say:

It's more than feeling "empathy" like you say that you feel for your black neighbors. It is a complete takeover of everything and it is truly evil. This is not what the Lord Jesus Christ wanted at all! BLM is an evil group. It's Marxism covered up with "caring and empathy" for the black race. It is a wolf in a sheep's costume ready to strike. George Floyd was just an excuse to do all of this vandalism and everything else. He has nothing to do with the narrative of the evilness of BLM. They have soiled the man's reputation and now they are going for the kill. It is truly insane.

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Oh right, the big scary bogeyman of Marxism.

Yawn.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Oh right, the big scary bogeyman of Marxism.

Yawn.

-CryptoLutheran

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Shall I remind you that Marxism, Communism, Socialism, and Fascism are all in the same boat and they lead to society's downfall? There were millions upon millions of deaths under these oppressive governments. The only best form of government is Capitalism.

Chairman Mao, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Vladimir Lenin, Karl Marx, Kim Jong Un, and the rest?

If you have no regards to the dangers of this type of government and their form of government takeover then you are truly one evil person.

If I were in Germany, I can feel just as passionate for the German people and I can make it over with the hatred of the Jews and the rest but then I would be considered a Nazi. That and I'm a hateful person.

Or perhaps I could be in Venezuela and see the benefits of socialism because people are poor but yet I'd starve to death because it failed.

Or I could be N. Korea and be under the oppressive regime of Jim Jong Un and die that way because I can't talk badly about the government.

We are getting the same exact "don't talk bad about the blacks" type of thing here in America by taking over the entirety of America. It's institutions, it's businesses, etc. etc. and you're "oh, I'm just fine with it"? You are truly one evil person. You should care about this but you don't. Do you have no mind to think properly? My god... And yet Hitler's men claimed that the fuhrer was "cleansing" Germany. Do you subscribe to the same evilness?

I Love History & Archaeology said:

shall I remind you that Marxism, Communism, Socialism, and Fascism are all in the same boat and they lead to society's downfall? Chairman Mao, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Vladimir Lenin, Karl Marx, Kim Jong Un, and the rest?

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I suppose if one didn't know the difference between Stalinism and Marxism, or the differences between Socialism and Communism, or the differences between Marxism and Fascism, etc.

I mean, equivocating all these things, when they aren't the same things, seems like a pretty good way to never have to engage in any kind of meaningful discourse.

My problems with Marxist philosophy is that I don't think it's realistic. Marxism depends upon the notion that, eventually, human beings can cooperate enough so as there will no longer be any need for the state; the end-goal of Marxism is an ever-shrinking state until there is no more state, and all people are equal and all property is the common possession of the people. But every attempt to implement the kind of social revolution that Marx entertained has resulted not in the Marxist ideal, but in totalitarian regimes that are effectively the antithesis of what Marx envisioned; in which it is not the people who own the means of production, it is not the people who own the property, but rather the result is always totalitarian oligarchy, where power resides in the hands of very few. Hence Stalin, Mao, et al. Stalinism, to be sure, is a kind of Fascism that existed under the pretense of Marxism; it was Statist Totalitarianism and Corporatism; though Stalinism lacked all the features of Fascism in a technical sense; it reflected the same destructive power as Fascism.

Any fight against Fascism is therefore a fight against totalitarianism and oligarchy.

I simply do not believe in the viability of Marxism in toto, of a Communist society completely free of the state and of oligarchy; human nature inevitably resists this on account of sin, and the result will inevitably be a violence by the few against the many; the strong against the weak, and thus there cannot be a cessation of classes under such a system because it will inevitably leads to the creation of a stratified, class-based society of the rich and powerful over and against the poor and the weak.

Socialism, on the other hand, at least in moderation, provides a number of antidote to the dangers of unregulated capitalism; through systems of social uplift, welfare, and safety nets. Not by the destruction of the free market, but by keeping the market free through regulation, through social institutions that protect and help. Hence I believe in universal healthcare, in public education, in welfare programs, and reform of social institutions that have long been in place which disproportionately give advantage to the rich and give disadvantage to the poor; which gives advantage to white people and disadvantage to people of color.

I don't believe in pure socialism or pure capitalism; but that a synthesis can co-exist in which a market is not only free, but also just. Without justice there is no freedom.

But equivocating Marxism with Fascism is objectively wrong, and very clearly stupid; and anyone who studies these things objectively would know this. The problems of Marxism are not the problems of Fascism; though the implementation of Marxism has failed and produced results that are strikingly similar to Fascism. Hence, I don't believe in Marxism as viable (and the reasons outlined above), and I think Marxism is fundamentally flawed on account of this.

But one does not fight against the problems of Marxism by doubling down on oligarchy, by supporting Faschism, and by perpetuating systems of oppression.

And thus the goal must be the establishment of just law; actual law and order not the false pretense of law and order; the disestablishment of systems of oppression and the implementation of systems of relief and uplift for the oppressed. It is not law and order when a cop kneels on the neck of George Floyd for 8 minutes and 46 seconds until he dies. Law and order is not when militarized police shoot chemical weapons into crowds of peaceful protestors. Law and order is not when a fascist like Donald Trump calls for "law and order" but is only calling forth lawlessness and the doubling down of oppression. That is not law and order, that is lawlessness.

As St. Augustine says, lex iniusta non est lex, an unjust law is no law at all.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

And thus the goal must be the establishment of just law; actual law and order not the false pretense of law and order; the disestablishment of systems of oppression and the implementation of systems of relief and uplift for the oppressed. It is not law and order when a cop kneels on the neck of George Floyd for 8 minutes and 46 seconds until he dies. Law and order is not when militarized police shoot chemical weapons into crowds of peaceful protestors. Law and order is not when a fascist like Donald Trump calls for "law and order" but is only calling forth lawlessness and the doubling down of oppression. That is not law and order, that is lawlessness.

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There are bad people everywhere. They are in all departments of public service sadly. The best thing to do is fire them.

Donald Trump didn't call for cops to do anything. The cops shot tear gas into protester crowds by their own will because the protesters were acting like clowns and burning down businesses and vandalism. No cop would do such a thing if the people were acting peaceful about it all. Trump called for cops to defend themselves.

There is law and order. The issue is that people think that it's Burger King all day every day and they want it their way when that is not the reality of America. There is law and order. It's just that nobody wants to be peaceful about it.

ViaCrucis said:

I don't believe in pure socialism or pure capitalism; but that a synthesis can co-exist in which a market is not only free, but also just. Without justice there is no freedom.

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The freer the market, the freer the people. Have you ever heard of that? It's true. Just look to Sweden.

ViaCrucis said:

I mean, equivocating all these things, when they aren't the same things, seems like a pretty good way to never have to engage in any kind of meaningful discourse.

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They are all the same things. The difference is that they get more oppressive each time you move to a different system of government. Communism is the most oppressive of the bunch.

ViaCrucis said:

Socialism, on the other hand, at least in moderation, provides a number of antidote to the dangers of unregulated capitalism; through systems of social uplift, welfare, and safety nets. Not by the destruction of the free market, but by keeping the market free through regulation, through social institutions that protect and help. Hence I believe in universal healthcare, in public education, in welfare programs, and reform of social institutions that have long been in place which disproportionately give advantage to the rich and give disadvantage to the poor; which gives advantage to white people and disadvantage to people of color.

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The best way to make social safety nets better is to privatize it. That way there will be better quality programs so it will get better. This is what Sweden did. They did it with education, the monorail, etc. etc. Basically, anything that is expensive, just privatize it. When the economy is freer and they have enough money given back via these privatized programs, then they can pay for these social safety nets. I prefer the word "pension" here. I advocate for that instead of the basic stuff we have now in America. If a company does badly then they go under and another program will take over and make it better. That is the free hand of capitalism doing its magic. Consumer and buyer demand. Look up Anders Chydenius. He is the man behind it all. He was before the founders of America and he had the same ideas way before they all did. He's my personal hero.

Al Masihi said:

That would also include your profile picture, and that would also include the Cherubim God commanded Moses to make in Exodus 25. Iconoclasm is not Biblical, it’s based on a heretical misinterpretation of the second commandment, and it contradicts the Bible and logic.

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Well actually brother, the Lord commanded us not to make any image to bow down them or to serve them. It doesn't say don't make any image at all, it just says don't make an image to bow down to them or make an image to worship/serve them.
Exodus 20:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The command to make the cherubim in the Holy of Holies was not to bow down or worship the cherub but rather each aspect of the Holy temple had to be a direct reflection of the temple in heaven which would include the two covering cherub. Look closely and you will find that no command to worship the Cherub or bow down specifically to it was given.

There is no precedent in scripture to worship the Lord with icons/idols, in fact there is only condemnation of it.

RDKirk said:

I don't think the RCC is anywhere close to being the "worst" at Europeanizing images of Jesus. There are a lot of darker-skinned depictions of Jesus and Mary that I've seen even from my viewpoint outside of Catholicism. I've seen some cases of Catholic churches simply go to whatever color their parishioners are.

Rather, from my observation, the most doggedly Europeanized images of Jesus (blond, blue-eyed, the whole gamut) are from white evangelicals right into the present day.

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You should have done a little research before posting that vid, RD.

Nest Entertainment is LDS.

Point is taken with some modicum of agreement, but the execution was a Fail. Most conservative Christians Jesus was Jewish and because the Semitic/Hebrew/Jewish bloodline was fairly intact (there are two adoptions in JC's lineage) we necessarily understood Jesus likely had an Aryan appearance consistent with those of modern day Iraq. But, if you can find an authoritative doctrine from any of the leading Protestant institutions stating Jesus was Euro-Causasian I'd be willing to read it and joining you in its repudiation.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Well actually brother, the Lord commanded us not to make any image to bow down them or to serve them. It doesn't say don't make any image at all, it just says don't make an image to bow down to them or make an image to worship/serve them.
Exodus 20:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The command to make the cherubim in the Holy of Holies was not to bow down or worship the cherub but rather each aspect of the Holy temple had to be a direct reflection of the temple in heaven which would include the two covering cherub. Look closely and you will find that no command to worship the Cherub or bow down specifically to it was given.

There is no precedent in scripture to worship the Lord with icons/idols, in fact there is only condemnation of it.

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Then God contradicted himself when he commanded the Cherubim to be made, if God commanded the Cherubim to be made, then that by default disapproves the Iconoclastic interpretation of the second commandment. There’s no way around this, also if your even consistent in your iconoclasm, then the second commandment would also forbid you to have any pictures in your house or to even own a camera. All pictures of Christ, the Theotokos, and the Saints are meant to represent a real reality in heaven, no one worships the images, you’ve effectively refuted your own position, if God commanded images of things in heaven to be made, that refutes your iconoclasm. Also the Bible pretty much destroys any notion of iconoclasm, Joshua bowed face down to the Ark with the Cherubim on them:

And Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the evening, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.

Joshua 7:6

Josheb said:

You should have done a little research before posting that vid, RD.

Nest Entertainment is LDS.

Point is taken with some modicum of agreement, but the execution was a Fail. Most conservative Christians Jesus was Jewish and because the Semitic/Hebrew/Jewish bloodline was fairly intact (there are two adoptions in JC's lineage) we necessarily understood Jesus likely had an Aryan appearance consistent with those of modern day Iraq. But, if you can find an authoritative doctrine from any of the leading Protestant institutions stating Jesus was Euro-Causasian I'd be willing to read it and joining you in its repudiation.

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I did not say that "leading Protestant institutions" state that Jesus was "Euro-Caucasian."

I stated that "the most doggedly Europeanized images of Jesus (blond, blue-eyed, the whole gamut) are from white evangelicals right into the present day."

A very different proposition.

Oh good grief.