Love of YHWH

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This is me about 1 yr. old.
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“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” Acts 2:1
“For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit. But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost. “1 Cor. 16: 7.8
“For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.”Acts 20:16
“And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Passover to bring him forth to the people. Acts 12: 3,4
“When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus. “Acts 18:20,21
“Therefore let us keep the feast, not with the old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Cor. 5:8
“Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past, Paul admonished them, “Acts 27:9

....
Acts 2:1 Only says what day it was doesn't say they were observing anything.
1 Cor. 16: 7.8, Acts 20:16, Acts 20:16 Only mentions Paul wanted to be somewhere by a certain day not that he was observing anything.
Acts 12: 3,4 Says Paul wanted to do something after a certain day not that he was observing anything.
Acts 18:20,21 Only verse that says Paul wanted to keep a feast. This does not mean that gentile Christians had to observe anything
Acts 27:9 Only says Paul wanted to leave after a certain day. Not the he observed anything.
You can keep the shadow if you want to but I'm going with the real thing. Christ is my Passover, Sabbath, firstfruits etc

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
1 Corinthians 5:7
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Matthew 11:28-29
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming
 
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setst777

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When did I say it was?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

setst777 said:
HARK!, there is nothing wretched about being saved to live a new life in Christ Jesus, just as Paul concludes in Romans 8

When did I say it was?

Actually you did say that, using Romans 7:24-25 in an attempt to counter what I provided.

HARK! said:
This is what Paul says later on in the same chapter of this letter.

24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."


In the above, you are trying to prove we are still wretched to support your position that we are still under the law.

In Romans 7:7-24, Paul is teaching about the conflict the unregenerate man has between the flesh and the Law. That conflict that Paul is describing is the wretched condition of mankind before salvation, before receiving God’s Spirit by faith. Yet that is the Passage you are using to prove your position that we are still under the Law.

If you read just before Romans 7:7-24, here is what Paul actually teaches about those who are saved – that the conflict Paul describes in Romans 7:7-24 is no longer an issue with someone who belongs to Christ, those who is truly saved…

Roman 7:4-6 (WEB)
4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might produce fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law worked in our members to bring out fruit to death.
6
But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

When you read Romans 6 all the way to Romans 8, you get the full picture. Then we realize that Paul is no longer a wretched man as a slave to the flesh, and a slave to the Law with his mind – that was before he was saved.

The New Man in Christ is freedom from the Law to serve in a new way by the Spirit – that is what Baptism represents (Romans 6:1-4). By this new life in Christ we fulfill the law’s requirements.

Romans 6:1-4 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

So right after Romans 7:24 we read in Romans 8:1-4 how Paul is no longer wretched, but free in Christ Jesus, living by His Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4 (WEB)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Blessings,
Steven
 
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setst777

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setst777 said:
Setst RE: Notice that you defeated your whole argument about “has become” by quoting the context in verse 25.

Not at all. If you don't break the law; you are not under the consequences of the law.

Everyone who ever lived on earth, except for Lord Jesus, breaks the law in thought, word, and deed.

Romans 3:19-24 (WEB)
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.
20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
 
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Zao is life

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(CLV) Jn 5:42
But I know you, that you have not the love of God in yourselves.

(CLV) Jn 5:43
I have come in the name of My Father, and you are not getting Me. If another should be coming in his own name, him you will get.
(CLV) Jn 5:44
How can you believe, getting glory from one another, and are not seeking the glory which is from God alone?
(CLV) Jn 5:45
"Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely.
(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for the writes concerning Me.
(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing this writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"
(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,
(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.
From Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

Debate on. I like seeing your threads. I do not agree with your post because it creates the false premise in your opening verse that anyone who believes they are not required to observe the sabbath day, nor observe it on Saturday, nor are they required to keep the laws of Moses, but only those commandments which were repeated by Jesus and His apostles (of which the sabbath was not one), do not have the love of God in themselves.

In your post you equate love of God with obedience to laws and ordinances which were a shadow of things to come (which is Christ and faith in Christ producing Christ's fruit in individuals, which is God's way of obeying God's Law of which the Mosaic Law and the sabbath were all shadows and types), and we are told by Paul that those who were baptized into Christ Jesus have died to the shadows and types so we can be married to another - the risen One.

You know I don't agree with you at all but I'm happy every time I see a thread from you because I love free speech in a Christian forum and your right to state what you believe to be true. I've just come out of a string of blatant personal attacks to the point of even at one time demanding I answer a false accusation "because my credibility depends on my answer" and telling me I have no right or authority to share my beliefs because I'm making myself a Teacher who has no right to teach - and that in the context of a Christian forum. So I agree 100% with your right to debate this subject in a Christian forum.

PS: But you are wrong.
 
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HARK!

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Everyone who ever lived on earth, except for Lord Jesus, breaks the law in thought, word, and deed.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.
 
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HARK!

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Debate on. I like seeing your threads. I do not agree with your post because it creates the false premise in your opening verse that anyone who believes they are not required to observe the sabbath day, nor observe it on Saturday, nor are they required to keep the laws of Moses, but only those commandments which were repeated by Jesus and His apostles (of which the sabbath was not one), do not have the love of God in themselves.

In your post you equate love of God with obedience to laws and ordinances which were a shadow of things to come (which is Christ and faith in Christ producing Christ's fruit in individuals, which is God's way of obeying God's Law of which the Mosaic Law and the sabbath were all shadows and types), and we are told by Paul that those who were baptized into Christ Jesus have died to the shadows and types so we can be married to another - the risen One.

I posted pure scripture. Agree with it or not.

You know I don't agree with you at all but I'm happy every time I see a thread from you because I love free speech in a Christian forum and your right to state what you believe to be true. I've just come out of a string of blatant personal attacks to the point of even at one time demanding I answer a false accusation "because my credibility depends on my answer" and telling me I have no right or authority to share my beliefs because I'm making myself a Teacher who has no right to teach - and that in the context of a Christian forum. So I agree 100% with your right to debate this subject in a Christian forum.

I'm sorry to hear of your adverse experience. Let us pray that your detractors come to understand that It's YHWH's will that all be saved; and that his children should be pointing each other to him, and to his esteem.
 
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setst777

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(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

What you are again doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture in order to try and prove your belief that we must obey the Mosaic Law.

In Luke 1:6, being blameless does not mean they were without sin, or never broke any commandment of God in their entire lives.

Everyone who ever lived on earth, except for Lord Jesus, breaks the law in thought, word, and deed.

Romans 3:19-24 (WEB)
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.
20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

1 John 3:9 you also take out of context, and there is no reference to obey The OT Law in 1 John 3:9.

The context reveals that no Christian will ever live in sin if his faith is true. 1 John 3:9 does not teach that we are to obey the letter of the OT Mosaic Law.

1 John 2:1-2 (WEB)
2 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

John goes on further to show the commands of Jesus we are to follow as Christians:

1 John 3:23 (WEB)
23 This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name (authority) of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.

Lord Jesus taught this same Gospel throughout His ministry:

Matthew 22:36-40 (WEB)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’Deuteronomy 6:5 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’Leviticus 19:18 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

John 15:12 (NIV)
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

And so the Apostles also taught the same Gospel

Romans 13:8-10 (WEB)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” [Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deuteronomy 5:17-19],21 and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [Leviticus 19:18 10] Love doesn’t harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

2 Corinthians 13:7-9

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Blessings,
Steven
 
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HARK!

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What you are again doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture in order to try and prove your belief that we must obey the Law.

Obedience is a choice. Concerning scripture, the truth is an ALL of the Bible.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
 
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Oldmantook

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Debate on. I like seeing your threads. I do not agree with your post because it creates the false premise in your opening verse that anyone who believes they are not required to observe the sabbath day, nor observe it on Saturday, nor are they required to keep the laws of Moses, but only those commandments which were repeated by Jesus and His apostles (of which the sabbath was not one), do not have the love of God in themselves.

In your post you equate love of God with obedience to laws and ordinances which were a shadow of things to come (which is Christ and faith in Christ producing Christ's fruit in individuals, which is God's way of obeying God's Law of which the Mosaic Law and the sabbath were all shadows and types), and we are told by Paul that those who were baptized into Christ Jesus have died to the shadows and types so we can be married to another - the risen One.

You know I don't agree with you at all but I'm happy every time I see a thread from you because I love free speech in a Christian forum and your right to state what you believe to be true. I've just come out of a string of blatant personal attacks to the point of even at one time demanding I answer a false accusation "because my credibility depends on my answer" and telling me I have no right or authority to share my beliefs because I'm making myself a Teacher who has no right to teach - and that in the context of a Christian forum. So I agree 100% with your right to debate this subject in a Christian forum.

PS: But you are wrong.
Small correction. The "shadow" is not in the past tense - which is why the law still applies.
For the Law, having a shadow of the good things coming, not the form of the things themselves, never is able each year, with the same sacrifices which they offer continually, to perfect those drawing near. Heb 10:1
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Col 2:16-17
 
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Zao is life

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Small correction. The "shadow" is not in the past tense - which is why the law still applies.
For the Law, having a shadow of the good things coming, not the form of the things themselves, never is able each year, with the same sacrifices which they offer continually, to perfect those drawing near. Heb 10:1
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Col 2:16-17
Thank you for the correction. The reason I wrote "were" is because the substance belongs to Christ, who has already come (so the shadow is now past tense - as the scriptures below confirm):

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power, in whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. Having stripped rulers and authorities, He made a show of them publicly, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths. For these are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ."
(Colossians 2:9-17)

"So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ." (Galatians 3:24-47).

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

"But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you desire to slave anew? You observe days and months and times and years." (Galatians 4:9-10)
 
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Oldmantook

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Thank you for the correction. The reason I wrote "were" is because the substance belongs to Christ, who has already come (so the shadow is now past tense - as the scriptures below confirm):

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power, in whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. Having stripped rulers and authorities, He made a show of them publicly, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths. For these are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ."
(Colossians 2:9-17)

"So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ." (Galatians 3:24-47).

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

"But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you desire to slave anew? You observe days and months and times and years." (Galatians 4:9-10)
The "shadow" is specifically referenced in the two verses I cite - both of which refer to the shadow in the present tense - meaning still in existence.
Col 2:17 states that the things in v.16 ARE a shadow of things to come.... V.16 states those things are food/drink, feast days, new moons, Sabbath days which are a shadow; not were a shadow. These celebrations are specified in the law which are commanded by God for his people to observe - including both the Jews and the gentile believing Colossians. So in v.16 Paul tells the Colossian believers to not let anyone outside the church judge them for not doing those practices; rather it is the exact opposite as he is tells them to not let anyone outside the church judge them because they are doing those practices. Since those practices contained in the law ARE a shadow, the Colossians were still doing them. While Jesus fulfilled the law, he specifically pointed out that He did not abolish it either. Thus the shadow of the law still remains as it does not provide justification but it always as our tutor, directs us to Jesus as it's ultimate fulfillment.

That is confirmed in the Galatians & Romans passages you cited at the law is our trainer, tutor, guardian as it never justifies us. Only faith in Jesus justifies. The Galatians verse states "we are no longer under a trainer;" but just because we are no longer under a trainer it does not mean that the trainer/law no longer exists. The Romans passage states that the "righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us" but it does not say that the law no longer exists. In fact the law is the standard of righteousness that God requires of us by which we are measured. Without the law, there would be no standard of righteousness/holiness would there? That is precisely why Rom 3:20 states "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. And Rom 3:31 "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

In proper context, the verses in Gal 4 do not refer to things in God's law. You cited vs.9-10 but overlooked v.8 which states " Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods." Thus in vs.9-10 Paul criticizes the Galatian believers for turning back again to the weak and beggarly elements (which by nature are not gods, v.8) by observing days, months, times and years. These are pagan days, months, times and years which the Galatian believers used to observe/practice when they were pagans. Thus Paul rebukes the Galatians for reverting back to their pagan practices. Paul is not rebuking them for following God's law.
 
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Zao is life

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The "shadow" is specifically referenced in the two verses I cite - both of which refer to the shadow in the present tense - meaning still in existence.
Col 2:17 states that the things in v.16 ARE a shadow of things to come.... V.16 states those things are food/drink, feast days, new moons, Sabbath days which are a shadow; not were a shadow. These celebrations are specified in the law which are commanded by God for his people to observe - including both the Jews and the gentile believing Colossians. So in v.16 Paul tells the Colossian believers to not let anyone outside the church judge them for not doing those practices; rather it is the exact opposite as he is tells them to not let anyone outside the church judge them because they are doing those practices. Since those practices contained in the law ARE a shadow, the Colossians were still doing them. While Jesus fulfilled the law, he specifically pointed out that He did not abolish it either. Thus the shadow of the law still remains as it does not provide justification but it always as our tutor, directs us to Jesus as it's ultimate fulfillment.

That is confirmed in the Galatians & Romans passages you cited at the law is our trainer, tutor, guardian as it never justifies us. Only faith in Jesus justifies. The Galatians verse states "we are no longer under a trainer;" but just because we are no longer under a trainer it does not mean that the trainer/law no longer exists. The Romans passage states that the "righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us" but it does not say that the law no longer exists. In fact the law is the standard of righteousness that God requires of us by which we are measured. Without the law, there would be no standard of righteousness/holiness would there? That is precisely why Rom 3:20 states "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. And Rom 3:31 "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

In proper context, the verses in Gal 4 do not refer to things in God's law. You cited vs.9-10 but overlooked v.8 which states " Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods." Thus in vs.9-10 Paul criticizes the Galatian believers for turning back again to the weak and beggarly elements (which by nature are not gods, v.8) by observing days, months, times and years. These are pagan days, months, times and years which the Galatian believers used to observe/practice when they were pagans. Thus Paul rebukes the Galatians for reverting back to their pagan practices. Paul is not rebuking them for following God's law.

"Are a shadow" because Paul was writing during a time when the temple still stood. In a way, they still are a shadow because the so-called "Jewish" holidays (appointed times of the LORD, not appointed by the Jews) are still observed today by Jews and also even by many Christians.

However, the shadow is still the shadow, and what you say and what I say regarding whether or not Paul was telling the Colossians not to let anyone judge them for observing these laws vs. not to let anyone judge them for not observing these laws, are based on our assumptions. You say Paul was rebuking the Galatians for going back to their pagan practices. I say they had probably been told they were to observe the appointed times of the LORD by the Jewish party - the same party which had insisted they be circumcised.

Neither you nor I have any proof, either way. So it's an assumption.

However, the are other statements by Paul, and other facts, which lean towards what I say, not what you say, such as the fact that Paul told both the Christians in Rome and the Christians in Galatia, that they are dead to the law (Romans 7:4; Galatians 2:19). There is also the fact that the law is the basis of the covenant which was broken by the continued breaking of the law and disobedience of the people, which is why an entirely New Covenant was promised (Jeremiah 31:31). Both covenants were ratified with blood, but only the blood of Christ is the blood of the eternal covenant.

So the assumptions you and I make and how we interpret the very scriptures you quote, depends on our starting-premise. Mine is different to yours, and we can argue about it till the cows come home from pasture, but you will not have convinced me, and vice-versa.

What I've often wanted to ask HARK is, which laws does he observe, exactly? (Like give me a list of those he deems applicable, and why, forgetting about those he does not deem applicable). I just want to know "what laws" he observes. My guess is, they would be:-

1. Dietary laws.
2. Keeping the sabbath day (on Saturday, of course, which I agree, is the sabbath day).
3. Observing Passover, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Weeks, Shavu'ot (Pentecost), Rosh Hashanah (the day of trumpets), the Day of Atonenemt and the Fast of Tabernacles? If he observes some and leaves some of these out, then why?

How strictly does he observe all this? And are there other laws he observes, aside from the above?

Does Israel keep the laws regarding the sabbath years? If not, why not?

I have no problem at all with Jewish Christians ("Messianic" Jews) observing all the above 3 laws - it's part of their culture, but I do not see it as a legal requirement that must be obeyed any longer - not for Jews, and certainly not for Gentiles. Why? Because it's only a shadow, a type, of Christ in us - and both He, the apostle Paul and the apostle John taught us that love for God and love of neighbor fulfills all the requirements of the law.

So the way we interpret the scriptures you mention, depends on our assumption, which depends on our starting premise.
 
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Der Alte

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I have no problem at all with Jewish Christians ("Messianic" Jews) observing all the above 3 laws - it's part of their culture, but I do not see it as a legal requirement that must be obeyed any longer - not for Jews, and certainly not for Gentiles. Why? Because it's only a shadow, a type, of Christ in us - and both He, the apostle Paul and the apostle John taught us that love for God and love of neighbor fulfills all the requirements of the law.
So the way we interpret the scriptures you mention, depends on our assumption, which depends on our starting premise.
About 2.5 decades ago when I was working for the Department of Defense I was moved from the San Francisco area to Orange county about 19 miles from Disneyland. While getting cable hooked up the technician had a very distinctive speaking voice. My wife, never shy, said "You should use your voice for the glory of the Lord."
He said "I do I'm the cantor form my synagogue." Our 20 or so minute cable hook up turned in to a 45 minute fellowship. I learned he was raised orthodox Jewish on the east coast, went to UCLA where through Campus Crusade he became a messianic Jew. They still observed all the feasts etc. not as a requirement of the law but a celebration of their Jewish heritage.
He said is night job was the voice of the San Diego chargers.
 
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Oldmantook

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"Are a shadow" because Paul was writing during a time when the temple still stood. In a way, they still are a shadow because the so-called "Jewish" holidays (appointed times of the LORD, not appointed by the Jews) are still observed today by Jews and also even by many Christians.

However, the shadow is still the shadow, and what you say and what I say regarding whether or not Paul was telling the Colossians not to let anyone judge them for observing these laws vs. not to let anyone judge them for not observing these laws, are based on our assumptions. You say Paul was rebuking the Galatians for going back to their pagan practices. I say they had probably been told they were to observe the appointed times of the LORD by the Jewish party - the same party which had insisted they be circumcised.

Neither you nor I have any proof, either way. So it's an assumption.

However, the are other statements by Paul, and other facts, which lean towards what I say, not what you say, such as the fact that Paul told both the Christians in Rome and the Christians in Galatia, that they are dead to the law (Romans 7:4; Galatians 2:19). There is also the fact that the law is the basis of the covenant which was broken by the continued breaking of the law and disobedience of the people, which is why an entirely New Covenant was promised (Jeremiah 31:31). Both covenants were ratified with blood, but only the blood of Christ is the blood of the eternal covenant.

So the assumptions you and I make and how we interpret the very scriptures you quote, depends on our starting-premise. Mine is different to yours, and we can argue about it till the cows come home from pasture, but you will not have convinced me, and vice-versa.

What I've often wanted to ask HARK is, which laws does he observe, exactly? (Like give me a list of those he deems applicable, and why, forgetting about those he does not deem applicable). I just want to know "what laws" he observes. My guess is, they would be:-

1. Dietary laws.
2. Keeping the sabbath day (on Saturday, of course, which I agree, is the sabbath day).
3. Observing Passover, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Weeks, Shavu'ot (Pentecost), Rosh Hashanah (the day of trumpets), the Day of Atonenemt and the Fast of Tabernacles? If he observes some and leaves some of these out, then why?

How strictly does he observe all this? And are there other laws he observes, aside from the above?

Does Israel keep the laws regarding the sabbath years? If not, why not?

I have no problem at all with Jewish Christians ("Messianic" Jews) observing all the above 3 laws - it's part of their culture, but I do not see it as a legal requirement that must be obeyed any longer - not for Jews, and certainly not for Gentiles. Why? Because it's only a shadow, a type, of Christ in us - and both He, the apostle Paul and the apostle John taught us that love for God and love of neighbor fulfills all the requirements of the law.

So the way we interpret the scriptures you mention, depends on our assumption, which depends on our starting premise.
Thanks for your explanation. You wrote: So the assumptions you and I make and how we interpret the very scriptures you quote, depends on our starting-premise. Mine is different to yours, and we can argue about it till the cows come home from pasture, but you will not have convinced me, and vice-versa.

That is indeed true as our starting premise influences how we interpret the scriptures on any given subject. I used to believe as you do for decades as that is what I was taught including my time spent in seminary. I once asked one of my professors why do the animal sacrifices start up again during the millennial age when Jesus reigns on the earth since Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice. He just shrugged his shoulders and admitted he didn't know. At least he was honest. Fast forward 3 decades later and I now realize that the law has not been abolished but fulfilled as Jesus himself proclaimed. The law does not justify anyone but it does still exist in order to point out to people what constitutes as sin (Rom 3:20) and tutor people to FAITH in Jesus (Gal 3:24-25). Rom 3:31 plainly states that the law is not nullified by this faith but is instead upheld.
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (NIV)

Based just on these verses alone, not to mention others, I slowly came to the conclusion that the practice of my faith was not based on what the NT states. I had either ignored scriptures or had misinterpreted what they actually stated. Since all Scripture is inspired by God and the scriptures do not contradict one another I had to resolve those "discrepancies" for myself

You cited Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
This verse states we have died to the law. It does not say the law has died. Have the 10 Commandments died? Of course not, we die to the law by obeying the law. We crucify our flesh and live by the Spirit according to what the law dictates. How can Rom 7:4 mean what you claim it to mean when just a few verses later, v.12 states that the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good??

You cited Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Again you misinterpret the verse as it states "I died" - NOT the law died. We live for God and show our love for God by obeying his commandments per 1 Jn 5:3.

The one thing that you are correct on is that one's love for God and one's neighbor fulfills all the requirements of the law. The problem however is that you have "thrown the baby out with the bath water." The NT builds upon the OT so for example we do not only refrain from committing physical adultery (letter of the law) but we now also refrain from committing adultery with our eyes (spirit of the law). It would be ludicrous to claim that we should not commit adultery with our eyes but are now free to commit physical adultery since the law no longer applies.
 
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Jipsah

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This is a false accusation.
Doesn't look like it from here.

I don't set the standard for obedience to YHWH. Yahshua does.
I seem to recall Him getting a lot of grief from the Pharisees about what they thought was His cavalier attitude toward trhe Sabbath. They didn't understand that it was His idea in the first place...
 
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