How do Adventists handle this text?

Andre_b · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
It now occurs to me that he is not aware that Adventists teach that "the main point" is that Jesus is in heaven as High Priest seated at the right and of the Father and that this is where he went at his ascension and then in 1844 - both of them go to the judgment phase of that High Priestly ministry in what is termed "the Most Holy Place" within that same Heavenly sanctuary".

What I have trouble with the theology of the SDA is that it is claimed that Jesus only entered the Holy place and not the Most Holy Place. I saw Walter Veith speaking about this using the hagia hagion to refer to the Most Holy place.

Hebrews 9:24 specifically says that Christ entered into the holy places -> plural, in heaven.
Hebrews 9 : 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places [ἅγια - hagia] made with hands, the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 9 : 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place [ἅγια - hagia] every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 10 : 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest [ἁγίων - hagiōn] by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Seems like Jesus can enter in the holiest anytime for us when we confess our sins. I feel like I am not understanding here. Can you help?

mmksparbud · May 7, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Yes. Des was the head of Adventist theology (at Avondale). He was commissioned by the church to study the doctrine of the Investigative judgment. He studied it for 14 years. He presented his findings at the glacier view conference where he pronounced it "not in the bible". Adventism then kicked him out of their fellowship entirely. I encourage you to listen to his presentation and read through the discussion he presents. The investigative judgment is not in the bible.

Des continued to hold Ellen in high regard, continued to keep the Sabbath, continued to eat vegetarian, and said "large ships turn slowly" of the Adventist church. He was a good man and he did not "fall way" as you so rudely phrase it.

I wasn't being rude!! That's what it's called! I had to look it up when I came back as I had not known anything about it back in 1985. I studied his work then---didn't agree and came back after 35 years off (for bad behavior!) I left as soon as I had gone on my own around 1969 and did not even think about anything dealing with God until '85. I researched it out more during the years since and still do not agree with him. It is in the bible and I have gone all over that stuff years ago, and settled everything in my mind before coming back, don't need to go through it all over again. I will be honest and tell you one thing---I hate math and I hate numbers and I really don't like getting into prophecies and timelines---my brain doesn't like numbers! The older I get the worse I am about them. As I said---I studied it very thoroughly before coming back and right after when my brain was much younger. Sorry you don't agree. Soon enough, everyone will know.

BobRyan · May 7, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Yes. Des was the head of Adventist theology (at Avondale). He was commissioned by the church to study the doctrine of the Investigative judgment. He studied it for 14 years.

or...??

BobRyan · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
It now occurs to me that he is not aware that Adventists teach that "the main point" is that Jesus is in heaven as High Priest seated at the right and of the Father and that this is where he went at his ascension and then in 1844 - both of them go to the judgment phase of that High Priestly ministry in what is termed "the Most Holy Place" within that same Heavenly sanctuary"

Andre_b said:
What I have trouble with the theology of the SDA is that it is claimed that Jesus only entered the Holy place and not the Most Holy Place.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

It is a two phase ministry just as God's model points out. The second phase is the "Day of Atonement" phase - the first is the Passover Lamb, the daily sacrifice phase.

God the Father and God the Son are seated next to each other in the Holy Place (the 12 loaves of bread 6 + 6) in heaven itself, seated on the throne. For the second phase of that ministry they start the "Day of Atonement" service (that includes the judgment) which concludes before the 2nd coming according to Daniel 7:9-10 and also the end of that chapter.

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

Andre_b · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

It is a two phase ministry just as God's model points out. The second phase is the "Day of Atonement" phase - the first is the Passover Lamb, the daily sacrifice phase.

God the Father and God the Son are seated next to each other in the Holy Place (the 12 loaves of bread 6 + 6) in heaven itself, seated on the throne. For the second phase of that ministry they start the "Day of Atonement" service (that includes the judgment) which concludes before the 2nd coming according to Daniel 7:9-10 and also the end of that chapter.

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

So the KJV has it incorrectly here? It's hard to see how it can be wrong.

YouAreAwesome · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
or...??

?

BobRyan · May 7, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
?

I happen to have the Glacier View documents handed to me from someone who was there and I for one was never under the impression that from 1979 to 1982 was 14 years. I realize that Glacier View is way off topic from the OP so ... just an "or...??"

BobRyan · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

It is a two phase ministry just as God's model points out. The second phase is the "Day of Atonement" phase - the first is the Passover Lamb, the daily sacrifice phase.

God the Father and God the Son are seated next to each other in the Holy Place (the 12 loaves of bread 6 + 6) in heaven itself, seated on the throne. For the second phase of that ministry they start the "Day of Atonement" service (that includes the judgment) which concludes before the 2nd coming according to Daniel 7:9-10 and also the end of that chapter.

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

Andre_b said:
So the KJV has it incorrectly here? It's hard to see how it can be wrong.

If we are having a discussion about which translation has the more accurate Greek translation into English in Hebrews 9 and 10 the NASB vs KJV I vote NASB in that one case. Not that I would always do that but in the book of Hebrews NASB is pretty hard to beat.

You of course could counter with "well that is where we differ" and I am not opposing that... everyone has free will.

YouAreAwesome · May 7, 2020

Andre_b said:
What I have trouble with the theology of the SDA is that it is claimed that Jesus only entered the Holy place and not the Most Holy Place. I saw Walter Veith speaking about this using the hagia hagion to refer to the Most Holy place.

Hebrews 9:24 specifically says that Christ entered into the holy places -> plural, in heaven.
Hebrews 9 : 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places [ἅγια - hagia] made with hands, the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 9 : 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place [ἅγια - hagia] every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 10 : 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest [ἁγίων - hagiōn] by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Seems like Jesus can enter in the holiest anytime for us when we confess our sins. I feel like I am not understanding here. Can you help?

Hebrews 9:24 is one of the keys that refutes the Investigative Judgment for sure, "...now to appear in the presence for us". Where was the presence of God? In the Most Holy Place. When? He was "now to appear", not in 1800 years.

But do you mean "ἅγιον hágion" (G39)? It can be translated “holy place”, “most holy place”, or the” sanctuary” as a whole.

In Hebrews 9:12 the sentence—Jesus entered the holy place once for all—doesn’t make sense because His work on our behalf wasn’t completed there. The “once for all” work was completed in the most holy place. The sentence—Jesus entered the most holy place once for all—does make sense because Jesus did complete the “the once for all” work in the most holy place.

In Hebrews 9:25 the sentence—the high priest enters the holy place every year—doesn’t make sense because he entered the holy place daily not yearly. The sentence—the high priest enters the most holy place every year—does make sense because the distinctive work of the high priest happened yearly in the most holy place. The time “every year” refers only to the Day of Atonement in which the high priest entered the most holy place.

YouAreAwesome · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
I happen to have the Glacier View documents handed to me from someone who was there and I for one was never under the impression that from 1979 to 1982 was 14 years. I realize that Glacier View is way off topic from the OP so ... just an "or...??"

It was 14 years. Perhaps the last three were in some way different to the previous 11 years.

BobRyan · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

It is a two phase ministry just as God's model points out. The second phase is the "Day of Atonement" phase - the first is the Passover Lamb, the daily sacrifice phase.

God the Father and God the Son are seated next to each other in the Holy Place (the 12 loaves of bread 6 + 6) in heaven itself, seated on the throne. For the second phase of that ministry they start the "Day of Atonement" service (that includes the judgment) which concludes before the 2nd coming according to Daniel 7:9-10 and also the end of that chapter.

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

YouAreAwesome said:
Hebrews 9:24 is one of the keys that refutes the Investigative Judgment for sure, "...now to appear in the presence for us".

hmm ... let me look at that for a sec.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

I don't see how that is opposing the judgment doctrine in Dan 7:9-10

I don't see how that is opposing the judgment doctrine in Dan 7:9-10

and this "main point"

BobRyan said:
"The main point" in the Adventist set of doctrines is this

Hebrews 8:1-6
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

Christ ascended to heaven - seated at the right hand of the Father in the heavenly sanctuary. Here we see the first two members of the Trinity - the Triune Godhead.. "One God" Deut 6:4 in "three persons" Matt 28:19

YouAreAwesome said:
In Hebrews 9:12 the sentence—Jesus entered the holy place once for all—doesn’t make sense because His work on our behalf wasn’t completed there. The “once for all” work was completed in the most holy place. .

"entered once for all" - does not have to mean "once and then stopped doing anything" - it is more likely it means "entered once for all time" as compared to "entered many times". He is bringing this up since at the end of Hebrews 7 he makes the case that the earthly priests enter many times.

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Hebrews 9 ends on that same point.

YouAreAwesome · May 7, 2020

BobRyan said:
hmm ... let me look at that for a sec.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

I don't see how that is opposing the judgment doctrine in Dan 7:9-10

and this "main point"

"entered once for all" - does not have to mean "once and then stopped doing anything" - it is more likely it means "entered once for all time" rather than "entered many times".

Hebrews 9 ends on that same point.

Yes, "He entered the [holy place]" is the word [ἅγιον hágion] which can indeed be translated holy place. But here [holy place] can mean the whole sanctuary or any part of it. The "once for all" is in reference to the day of atonement, especially because Jesus went into appear in the presence of God. The presence of God appeared in the most holy place only. Not in the holy place. God appeared over the ark. So when it says "now to appear in the presence" it must be referring to the most holy place.

In Hebrews 10:19 it is possibly even clearer because Jesus made a new and living way with His own blood so that we too can enter in to God's Presence. Behind the veil.

The reason this opposes the Investigative Judgment is because the Investigative Judgment teaches Jesus stayed in the Holy Place for 1800 years before finally entering in to the presence in the Most Holy Place (1844).

mmksparbud · May 7, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Yes, "He entered the [holy place]" is the word [ἅγιον hágion] which can indeed be translated holy place. But here [holy place] can mean the whole sanctuary or any part of it. The "once for all" is in reference to the day of atonement, especially because Jesus went into appear in the presence of God. The presence of God appeared in the most holy place only. Not in the holy place. God appeared over the ark. So when it says "now to appear in the presence" it must be referring to the most holy place.

In Hebrews 10:19 it is possibly even clearer because Jesus made a new and living way with His own blood so that we too can enter in to God's Presence. Behind the veil.

The reason this opposes the Investigative Judgment is because the Investigative Judgment teaches Jesus stayed in the Holy Place for 1800 years before finally entering in to the presence in the Most Holy Place (1844).

I was looking at my response---I am sorry if I sounded too lax or uninterested. Please understand---I am currently at home, but under Hospice care. I am on methadone for severe pain and I have not taken to it very well. I've been in a wheelchair for back issues for over 13 years and I have to limit my time on the computer. And my memory is quite apt to get the "hiccups frequently"! I have trouble with concentration at times. This methadone is the pits---horrible sleep issue, horrible nightmares, horrible nausea----in a word---Horrible!
Anyway---One thing I remember when I was delving into this topic was that I had to go back and look at the sanctuary service itself, after all, it was modeled after the heavenly one. It had to do with the duties of the High Priest. What was done each step of the way before the final end. It is a process that has to be looked at through the lens of the length of time each procedure would take for Jesus to go through, for He would be starting with the dead---from Adam on. I suggest that you examine the Day of Atonement very carefully, I believe that is where I was finally convinced. I really can't get into it right now myself to try and remember what I had seen so clearly back then! Such is life. I don't know if that will help you out or not. I just remember that it did me. God bless.

YouAreAwesome · May 8, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I was looking at my response---I am sorry if I sounded too lax or uninterested. Please understand---I am currently at home, but under Hospice care. I am on methadone for severe pain and I have not taken to it very well. I've been in a wheelchair for back issues for over 13 years and I have to limit my time on the computer. And my memory is quite apt to get the "hiccups frequently"! I have trouble with concentration at times. This methadone is the pits---horrible sleep issue, horrible nightmares, horrible nausea----in a word---Horrible!
Anyway---One thing I remember when I was delving into this topic was that I had to go back and look at the sanctuary service itself, after all, it was modeled after the heavenly one. It had to do with the duties of the High Priest. What was done each step of the way before the final end. It is a process that has to be looked at through the lens of the length of time each procedure would take for Jesus to go through, for He would be starting with the dead---from Adam on. I suggest that you examine the Day of Atonement very carefully, I believe that is where I was finally convinced. I really can't get into it right now myself to try and remember what I had seen so clearly back then! Such is life. I don't know if that will help you out or not. I just remember that it did me. God bless.

No good! Ouch! Sounds rough! May God bring you comfort and healing!

I also have studied these things, not so much the timing etc. but the gospel message. You see, Jesus entered the most holy place on our behalf, that we too may enter by believing in Him, “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25). We are joined spiritually to God’s very Presence through Jesus by the Holy Spirit! Hallelujah don't you think? We enter that most holy place upon receiving His spiritual deposit through Jesus!

Our sin is not on record before God!

“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcission of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Col 2:13-14)

"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38,39)

"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake" (1 John 2:12).

"...When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3)

"I, even I, am He who blotteth off thy transgressions, and, like a cloud, thy sins; return to Me for I have redeemed thee" (Isaiah 44:22)

"...but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26)

We can relax in the full assurance of our salvation that comes from His Spirit. We can be at peace that He is not judging us, but helping us daily.

BobRyan · May 8, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Yes, "He entered the [holy place]" is the word [ἅγιον hágion] which can indeed be translated holy place. But here [holy place] can mean the whole sanctuary or any part of it. The "once for all" is in reference to the day of atonement

No it is not in reference to the day of atonement .. it is in reference to the "context" that we saw in Hebrews 7 and that shows up again at the end of Hebrews 9 of a priest that goes out of the sanctuary many times to offer more offerings rather than as Hebrews 10 says "one sacrifice for all time".

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

BobRyan said:
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.NASB

Heb 9:24-25
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

I don't see how that is opposing the judgment doctrine in Dan 7:9-10

I don't see how that is opposing the judgment doctrine in Dan 7:9-10

"The main point" in the Adventist set of doctrines is this

Hebrews 8:1-6
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

Christ ascended to heaven - seated at the right hand of the Father in the heavenly sanctuary. Here we see the first two members of the Trinity - the Triune Godhead.. "One God" Deut 6:4 in "three persons" Matt 28:19

================

"entered once for all" - does not have to mean "once and then stopped doing anything" - it is more likely it means "entered once for all time" as compared to "entered many times". He is bringing this up since at the end of Hebrews 7 he makes the case that the earthly priests enter many times.

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Hebrews 9 ends on that same point.

For this reason it does not oppose the Judgment doctrine in the Bible.

As the Bible teaches - there are two phases to God's work in Gospel salvation - the model He gave for how the sanctuary in heaven explains the Gospel - and the second phase includes the judgment that Daniel 7:9-10 and Romans 2:4-16 describe

YouAreAwesome · May 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
No it is not in reference to the day of atonement .. it is in reference to the "context" that we saw in Hebrews 7 and that shows up again at the end of Hebrews 9 of a priest that goes out of the sanctuary many times to offer more offerings rather than as Hebrews 10 says "one sacrifice for all time".

For this reason it does not oppose the Judgment doctrine in the Bible.

Sorry, where in Hebrews 9 is it talking of the high priest Jesus going in and out of the sanctuary many times?

BobRyan · May 8, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Sorry, where in Hebrews 9 is it talking of the high priest Jesus going in and out of the sanctuary many times?

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

By contrast He suffered once.. all offerings collapsed into one and enters once with the blood of sacrifice.

as noted here

BobRyan said:
No it is not in reference to the day of atonement .. it is in reference to the "context" that we saw in Hebrews 7 and that shows up again at the end of Hebrews 9 of a priest that goes out of the sanctuary many times to offer more offerings rather than as Hebrews 10 says "one sacrifice for all time".

Heb 10
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,NASB

Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

mmksparbud · May 8, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
No good! Ouch! Sounds rough! May God bring you comfort and healing!

I also have studied these things, not so much the timing etc. but the gospel message. You see, Jesus entered the most holy place on our behalf, that we too may enter by believing in Him, “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25). We are joined spiritually to God’s very Presence through Jesus by the Holy Spirit! Hallelujah don't you think? We enter that most holy place upon receiving His spiritual deposit through Jesus!

Our sin is not on record before God!

“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcission of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Col 2:13-14)

"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38,39)

"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake" (1 John 2:12).

"...When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3)

"I, even I, am He who blotteth off thy transgressions, and, like a cloud, thy sins; return to Me for I have redeemed thee" (Isaiah 44:22)

"...but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26)

We can relax in the full assurance of our salvation that comes from His Spirit. We can be at peace that He is not judging us, but helping us daily.

Thank you---I will leave this between you and Bob---His brain is younger! I may not remember how I settled the question, I only remember that I did! Too many years ago. All I know is that we have the assurance to hold on to Jesus and I sure do hope He comes to get us soon! I am tired!

BobRyan · May 8, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I was looking at my response---I am sorry if I sounded too lax or uninterested. Please understand---I am currently at home, but under Hospice care. I am on methadone for severe pain and I have not taken to it very well. I've been in a wheelchair for back issues for over 13 years and I have to limit my time on the computer. And my memory is quite apt to get the "hiccups frequently"! I have trouble with concentration at times. This methadone is the pits---horrible sleep issue, horrible nightmares, horrible nausea----in a word---Horrible!
Anyway---One thing I remember when I was delving into this topic was that I had to go back and look at the sanctuary service itself, after all, it was modeled after the heavenly one. It had to do with the duties of the High Priest. What was done each step of the way before the final end. It is a process that has to be looked at through the lens of the length of time each procedure would take for Jesus to go through, for He would be starting with the dead---from Adam on. I suggest that you examine the Day of Atonement very carefully, I believe that is where I was finally convinced. I really can't get into it right now myself to try and remember what I had seen so clearly back then! Such is life. I don't know if that will help you out or not. I just remember that it did me. God bless.

Sorry to hear about that - you are in my prayers my friend.

YouAreAwesome · May 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

By contrast He suffered once.. all offerings collapsed into one and enters once with the blood of sacrifice.

as noted here

I'm sorry but is your reference in Hebrews 9:25,

"nor was it that He would offer Himself often"

intended to convince the read it means daily? Because the very next sentence says "as the high priest enters the [hagion] year by year i.e. day of atonement. Not daily, year by year. So I'm still unsure of where you are getting your idea that Hebrews 9 is talking of daily sacrifices.

How do Adventists handle this text?

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