6 Day Creation Is A Lie Because.....
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wblastyn
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Or it actually is pseudo-science.
Science works by finding evidence and allowing it to lead them to a conclusion, whereas AiG already assume an absoutel truth (that Genesis is literal) and bend/twist/ignore the evidence to fit Genesis. By definition, they are a pseudoscience, the only reason you like them is because it tells you what you want to hear.
Now watch as pretty much everything over at AiG is refuted by real science: http://www.talkorigins.org
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I have seen their stuff. All they do is show how the data could easily fit into a young earth.
As for bending/twisting/distorting, well, I'd say both sides are guilty of that.
As for being refuted, In your stance it has been refuted.
I am comfortable with everything I have seen so far on Aigs site (not a lot tho).
I am sure Ken Hamm and friends offend the pants off of secular scientists when they show them that they coudl be wrong concerning timeframes and such.
Noone likes to be wrong about thier faiths.
As for bending/twisting/distorting, well, I'd say both sides are guilty of that.
As for being refuted, In your stance it has been refuted.
I am comfortable with everything I have seen so far on Aigs site (not a lot tho).
I am sure Ken Hamm and friends offend the pants off of secular scientists when they show them that they coudl be wrong concerning timeframes and such.
Noone likes to be wrong about thier faiths.
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The only way they could "offend the pants off of" mainstream scientists is if they presented evidence (or interpretation of evidence) that falsified mainstream theories of evolution and an old earth. They have yet to provide this falsification. There would huge recognition and probably a few awards to those that can do this. Fame and fortune awaits any one (creationist or secular) who can. What's taking so long? I guess the evil atheist conspiracy (EAC) is too strong and intimidating, even with the motivation to falsify the theories being so strong.
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Crusadar
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I really wonder who is teaching false science here - after all science is merely the study of God's creation. We all look at the same evidence because we all live in the same world. You must realize that those who compromise and attempt to bridge the two sides are often scoffed at from both sides. Let me ask you who would gain more from distorting the truth? From a Christian perspective the evolutionist would because the truth of God is not in them. Creationists are not out there to primarily deceive people for they know the consequences if they do - if they are the True believers they claim to be.
Honestly, theistic evolution is no different from materialistic evolution in any sense because it undermines the fundamental Gospel of Jesus Christ. Too often we allow fallible human reasoning to determine our faith in God instead of allowing our faith in God and the scriptures to determine our reasoning.
The bottom line between the literal Genesis versus theistic evolution is that the word of God is compromised with the fallible theories of men on both sides of the fence. The stand behind the literal creationists is that there is no compromise of God's word. After all what will you place your belief system on, something that changes all the time such as the ToE, or the never changing word of the almighty God?
You forget the fundamental reasoning behind the ToE is that man determines truth. It isn't about what theory sounds best or most intelligent because as mortals we do not know everything nor will ever know. Further, it is not a question of who has the most evidence - because evidence alone are meaningless unless it is interpreted within each belief system. For evolutionist matter is the only reality, and beyond reality to them it does not matter. Seems rhetorical but if you truly believe that there is no God then despite every evidence for God's existence you would conclude otherwise. For literal creationists it is not winning the debate in the eyes of men or worldly gain that is of priority, but that they win souls to God in the process. Most YEC scientists if you ask them what motivates them to do what they do, I would assume it would be for God's glory and in winning souls to God, not monetary gain or fame.
If you are a Christian as you claim to be, allow faith to guide your reasoning, not your reasoning to guide your faith. God is the God of Truth and He does not lie. If we cannot accept what God said about creating the world as He claims He did, then it is obvious that he lied to us and what makes us think He did not lie to us elswhere in the Bible?
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"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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wblastyn
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So you're equating "evolutionist" with atheist, because "the truth of God is not in them".
Evolution says nothing about Jesus or the Gospel, it just describes how God created.
Yes, and what about when those who don't "compromise" the word of God study biology/geology/cosmology and see that evolution/old earth/big bang aren't lies like creationists told them?
Evolution is NOT atheism, I do not believe "matter is the only reality", I believe in the supernatural.
The fact that we don't know everything is why Evoltuion is a theory, because it could potentially be falsified, but so far it hasn't. On the other hand, creationist has been falsified, it just doesn't fit with reality.
What you don't seem to realise is creationism pushes people away from Christianity, because alot of people know more about evolution, etc than you do and if you tell them evolution is false, the eath is 6000 years old, etc they'll think your insane. You're doing exactly what Augustine said not to do (talk nonsense to non-Christians about what they know is true).
I do have faith in God, just because Genesis may not be literal does not mean God lied, Jesus told parables all the time.
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Only if your faith demands a literal approach to Genesis. God did not lie to a theistic evolutionist, he lied to the creationist because reality shows us how the world was created. My understanding of the lessons of Genesis do not depend on a literal approach, therefor, God did not lie to me.
As far as the rest of the bible is concerned, any belief or interpretation in the bible is accepted on faith. I accept God on faith. I accept that creation happened the way the creation shows us it happened. I have faith the Genesis was not to be interpreted literally. I have faith that God did not lie and did not mean it to be interpreted literally.
This God has lied stuff is not an honest approach to my faith and it does little to convince me that I should not trust God.
It sounds as if you are saying that if YEC was indeed falsified (which it appears to be) that you would lose your faith because God is a liar. Is that true?
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Crusadar
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Not really, only that theistic evolution is not very different from materialistic natural evolution. The Truth is that God is their creator and He will hold them accountable for everything that they do and for many that is just not acceptable.
Exactly, that is the very reason I reject the ToE. It undermines the need for a Saviour, because according to theistic evolution (or naturalistic evolution) death and suffering is a part of life, even before Adam. Why even pray for relief from death and suffering if it has always been apart of life? If sin did not cause death and suffering what did sin do? And besides, what sort of god do you think would use such a cruel way of bringing about life where the strong survive and the weak die? Surely he or she is not worthy to be my god.
You are wrong there when you say that it describes how God created because it doesn't. And besides what makes you think the ToE gives us the best evidence for how life came about? If you are willing to accept that the ToE gives you the best way of explaining how life came about then by all means embrace it, I just don't think I can because the Bible is true not because I believe it is true, but that it is the truth that is why I believe in it.
By the way if you want to know why evolution is a false theory I suggest you look into the book, "The Natural Sciences Know Nothing of Evolution" written by A.E. Wilder-Smith.
As I have stated earlier it is when we allow outside influence from fallible men to reinterpret the scriptures that we become blind to the truth ourselves. The point I am making is that if you cannot trust the language system and accept what is written then what can you trust?
Perhaps, but you need to realize that it is the foundation for atheism.
As Christians we should not squabble over our interpretations of the scriptures but be as living examples of the grace and love of Jesus Christ, for even if a man were to come back from the dead and told us that God is real and that He will hold us accountable for everything that we do, how many do you think will truly believe? Very little, because the heart of man is by nature sinful and wicked.
I do not doubt your faith in God, but when I said "lie" what I was saying is that if we can not believe that God did what He did due to outside influence, then how do we know what he said elswhere is the truth?
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"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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I think that atheism has been around long before evolution. Evolution says nothing about a creator. Even Darwin believed that God used evolution to create. Many (if not most) of the scientists involved in biology that have created the basis for modern biology were and continue to be Christians or theists.
Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
How is evolution the foundation of atheism?
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Crusadar
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Yes, my absolute faith in God compels me to believe in the literal account of the creation as told in the Bible. The ToE is man's explanation for how life could of arisen when they were not there to begin with. The Bible is the inspired Book of God revealed to man. As a Christian which is more credible God's words or man's theory?
Your contradicting yourself here. If you accept that God did not lie and accept that the creation occurred the way it is recorded then why add the ToE? Is God's word that He did it that way not sufficient?
Read my reply to wblastyn
That is far from the Truth. If God is the omnipotent, omniscient being that we know Him to be then what He said in His book would be the truth whether we choose to believe in it or not. Then it would not matter what fallible men such as ourselves may say that we can take as literal or allegory because His Truth exists irregardless of our interpretations. The bottom line is would it not be better to err on the side of man than in the sight of God?
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"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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AMEN!!! Follower of Christ!
Amen Crusader!
Proverbs 30:
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Amen Crusader!
Proverbs 30:
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
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wblastyn
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and what? I accept the theory of gravity, many atheists accept the theory of gravity, big deal.
Electricity says nothing about Jesus either.
Just because sin did not enter the world by someone eating from a magic tree does not mean sin did not enter the world. Maybe it happened in a much more complicated way, so God used the story of Adam and Eve to show man rebelled against God and is sinful, who cares what actually happened.
Also, I think you are refering to Natural Selection when you talk about the strong surviving,e tc. It's a fact of nature, if a group of antelope are being chased by a cheeta then the ones which have a gene for stronger legs will have a better chance of surviving, whereas the ones with weaker legs will most likely get caught, it's pretty obvious when you think about it.
Yes it does, creation shows that God , assuming He exists, created everything using evolution.
But if Genesis was never supposed to be taken literally in the first place then what you believe isn't really true is it?
I'm sure it's nothing I haven't seen before. If he truely falsified evolution he would have won a Nobel Prize.
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wblastyn,
You are proving my point that when evolution is accepted that distortion of the rest of scripture follows quickly (which is the only reason I even bother).
This only serves to make me believe that my theory is correct that evolution theory is a precursor to the ''lie'' or ''delusion'' spoken of in 2 Thess that may indeed cause the same ''falling away'' of His people.
With every scripture that get added to the list of Gods ''fabrications'', another nail gets driven into my theory.
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Crusadar
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So do I because it is what we observe, it is something that is testable, repeatable, and it is a natural law. Evolution in the sense of natural unguided process is not a good theory because it cannot be repeated, tested or observed. But of course you will say that it is being observed through speciation but that is a bigger topic that I will address later on.
A bit off topic here.
How do you know it didn't? What version of the Bible are you reading? Did I miss something?
YECs are aware of natural selection and it has little to do with survival of the fittest. For YECs, natural selection deals more with genetics and variations within the "kind" with natural selection as a mechanism for that variation. There are no genes for stronger legs that I am aware of, because as you know acquired characteristics cannot be passed on to succeeding generations. I will explain this later.
No because evolution is a blind process, because many biological systems found in the living world fuction as finely tuned machines - it is only logical to conclude that it was created that way as mentioned in the first chapters of Genesis. Evolution requires that each mutation adds a small step in each generation. It is illogical to conclude that an instrument such as echo location (sonar) found in certain sea creatures like dolphins to have developed in such a manner since the dophin would not of known the mathematics formula for the speed of sound in water unless it was preprogrammed in its brain. You cannot create such an instrument of that complexity by chance. If you think you can try duplicating a radar system by any unguided process, you simply can't.
As I have said to notto earlier - If God is the omnipotent, omniscient being that we know Him to be then what He said in His book would be true whether we choose to believe in it or not. And it would not matter what fallible men such as ourselves take as literal or allegory because God's Truth exists irregardless of our interpretations. The bottom line is I would rather err in the sight of man and be on side of God.
The book is primarily for die hard evolutionists who insist on believing that life came about through unguided random processes. It may or may not apply to us since we do believe in God as the creator - our only difference is our interpretations of how God did it. His book was not intended to falsify evolution but does provide very good evidence on the improbabilties of life having arisen by chance from working in his own field of biochemistry for over 50 years. It is worth a look. Yes he is a fallible man such as ourselves but still he was a respected scientist even in the evolutionary circle due to his credentials as holding three doctorates in the sciences and spoke 7 different languages.
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"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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wblastyn
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You were implying "evolutionists" undermine the Gospel because if Genesis is not literal then sin could not have entered the world, except theist evolutionists do believe sin entered the world.
Yes, that's what "evolutionists" accept too.
The stronger legs thing was just an example. Creatures with genes better adapted for their surroundings are more likely to survive there than those who don't have better adapted genes.
Some Theistic Evolutionists believe God guided evolution.
Do you need to understand neurons to use your brain? No, so why would a dolphin need to understand mathematics to use sonar?
By "die hard evoutionists" do you mean atheists?
Evolution is not random, it works by natural SELECTION.
Creation itself backs up our interpretation, so I'd prefer to go with that one. Our interpretation of scripture should reflect what actually happens in reality.
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If that is the case then why not take God on His word as being the truth and not contaminate it with men's fallible theories? If God created all life as He said He did then it would have been perfect - not death or suffering etc.? He would have created all life with the maximum amount of genetic information. Would he not? And would it not be logical to conclude that the curse of sin has resulted in the dramatic change of His creation, something that He did not intend for it to be?
So you really believe that God used evolution to bring about life as we see it today? What is the best proof that you can cite to support that? Note: By proof I mean proof that is undisputed, not just so-so interpretations surmised from incredulity of scripture.
Could not a creator as omniponent as our God have done this? My point (as you may or may not be aware of) follow in the lines of "irreducible complexity". Simply stated tha all parts of living organisms had to be there at the same time or it won't work - much like a car without a drive shaft or fuel injection system can not function, so living organisms which are much more complex biochemical machines cannot function without all its essential parts working together in harmony.
Basically, but let me remind you that we are not wrestling with mortals on this issue but with the forces of darkness. Even with absolute proof that God did what He did only a few thousand years ago you will still have unbelievers. Why? Because our sins blind us from God's truth, and until that barrier of sin is removed - atheists, non believers etc. will never see the Truth. Until a person confesses that s/he is a sinner, repents their sin acknowledges that JC is their Lord and Saviour - then no matter what is presented to them will not move them to faith in God. Man alone cannot bring man into faith with God, it is only by the conviction of the HS that they are compelled to faith.
Evolution from non matter to living matter is a random process. Speciation however is not random. By evolution not being random you really mean that speciation is not random. The later I agree with.
What really happens in reality is that things change, speciation does occur. This is not do to evolution but variations within a created kind. From what we observe in real life, we are not evolving but are rather devolving - because mutations when studied at the molecular level do not add genetic information but reduces genetic information (obviously due to the curse of sin). Speciation occurs because built in genetic information that a wise creator has put in place is simply reshuffled allowing organisms to adapt to their enviroment. Can I prove this beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not because I am a fallible human being just like everyone else. But it makes sense because an omniscent being such as God would have known what was to become of His creation and would have been prepared for it. Would He not?
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"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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wblastyn
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Genesis only says creation was "good" not perfect. Instead of telling God how He should have created, look at how He did create (evolution).
Well there are the conflicting creation accounts, the figurative language, the evidence from creation against literal Genesis, etc. If you're looking for a direct "and God used evolution to create..." there is none, although it does say God formed life from the ocean, which could support abiogenesis. But I could show you scripture that says the earth is immovable and sits on pillars. The Bible is not a science book.
Yes, but I don't understand why that couldn't have come about by evolution.
That's abiogenesis, and it's not entirely random, molecules arrange themselves in specific patterns. How are speciation and evolution different?
But there is no magical barrier that stops a species from becoming something else. The species could change so much that it could no longer mate with the original to produce fertile offspring, which is when it is labeled a new species I think. We don't actually know what "kinds" are.
Mutations can add new genetic info, bacteria are becoming resistant to anti-biotics, that is new information added to their genome.
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Crusadar
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Where is it documented that abiogenesis is even observed to take place in the last hundred years? It is the very foundation of evolution, without the first primative organism there is no evolution of any kind. I think you are fooling yourself here if you were to work with the evolutionary formula for life: matter + energy + time = life, (expirement using that formula for a while and then tell me how it turns out before you start making the bold claims that you are making). Even today with the advancement of science they are not even able to produce the simplest of life forms from non living matter. You need to research a little more before you make the assertion that abiogenesis is possible because it isn't.
Obviously you have been duped into believing that evolution (life from no life) is a workable theory. You have disregarded the very laws of nature which God has put in place where non life cannot become life if simply left to time.
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"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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Crusadar
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hey chickenman,
By the way what do you believe in since I saw nothing in your profile indicating your faith? If you believe the God of the Bible and a theistic evolutionist then I will continue to reply to your posts. If you are a die hard evolutionary atheist then I will ignore you - and if you are then you're in the wrong forum.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
---------------------------------------------------------
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
By the way what do you believe in since I saw nothing in your profile indicating your faith? If you believe the God of the Bible and a theistic evolutionist then I will continue to reply to your posts. If you are a die hard evolutionary atheist then I will ignore you - and if you are then you're in the wrong forum.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Let reasoning not guide your faith, but rather let faith guide your reasoning." - Unknown
---------------------------------------------------------
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]
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Both theistic evolutionists and creationists accept that life came from non-life at some point. The disagreement is as to what form that life took.
Evolution does not depend on life from non-life. It depends on life being present and well, look around, the chances that life came to be on this planet are a sure bet.
Evolution deals with what happened after that. Science cannot at this point say where that life came from. From outer space, from God, from ocean vents.
This does not change evolution. We can accept that God created the first molecules that became living and evolution would work just the same as if they came from non-life through a chemical reaction.
The evidence used to support evolution or accept evolution is not dependent on where the first life came from.
Evolution does not depend on life from non-life. It depends on life being present and well, look around, the chances that life came to be on this planet are a sure bet.
Evolution deals with what happened after that. Science cannot at this point say where that life came from. From outer space, from God, from ocean vents.
This does not change evolution. We can accept that God created the first molecules that became living and evolution would work just the same as if they came from non-life through a chemical reaction.
The evidence used to support evolution or accept evolution is not dependent on where the first life came from.
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