Has anyone been thru a Mormon temple?

straightforward · Mar 30, 2003

Matthew 23 only goes up to verse 39... I think you meant Luke. Luke 23: 40-43

Yes...that is what I meant...thank you for the much needed correction.

straightforward · Mar 30, 2003

Today at 02:24 PM jodrey said this in Post #340
1 Peter 3: 18-19 says, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" Learning continues after death, and the gospel is preached in the spirit world as well. If the criminal had faith, then Jesus would commence during His three-day absence to the spirits in prison and teach them, they then becoming worthy to be called to paradise, which is the "other side" of the spirit world. During this time of separation from the body people may repent and become still closer to Christ, until the first or second resurrection of the dead.

My bibles say different things here. Jesus died for all of us...we are all the 'unjust'. And if we continue reading, taking it in context, the 'spirits in prison' are from the time of Noah.

1 Peter 3: 18-20

NIV="For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built..."

NASB="For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark..."

I read in the Catholic bible I have and the KJV the same thing.

Is there somewhere in the bible that says paradise and heaven are different? Is there somewhere in the bible that says paradise is the same as Gehanna...which would be that prison? So the criminal didn't go to that prison...to be taught further that day? He went directly to paradise and didn't have to become worthy to be called into paradise? I really am interested in this...I'm not even trying to be tongue in cheek or anything.

 

ladylove · Mar 30, 2003

Today at 08:02 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #332

You know there are people that think they "love" people to Christ. The truth is no man can lead anyone to Chrsit ..That is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict men of their error and sin and lead them to repentance..before they are converted..

It is incredible how many people think they are the first cause of salvation..

Someone is being a hypocrite here.  No names please. :sick:

jodrey · Mar 30, 2003

Noah doesn't have much to do with the concept. Many disobedient people died at the time of Noah and here Christ is essentially giving them another chance to obey by going to teach them in the spirit world. All who die go there (or "become" there, actually... don't ask) before their "final destination," unless they are translated, like Elijah was.

Is there somewhere in the bible that says paradise and heaven are different?

I don't really know. Many times 'heaven' is said when actually referring to the paradise of the mediary state. From what I've heard, even many Jews believe this concept. I suggest that to learn more about it you talk to a Catholic about purgatory. It's quite interesting. The idea of the spirit world is similar to purgatory, but there are differences. This is not a strictly Mormon doctrine, and both Christians and Jews believe in it, although I think most protestants don't. There are enough scriptural hints to prove that there is something in between, but I'll leave someone else to address those passages for you.

calgal · Mar 30, 2003

Today at 04:31 AM Wrigley said this in Post #331

And, you should know, you have first hand experience.

You know, it just becomes amusing after a while (as long as nobody posts huge Gif's, I will be ok).

rnmomof7 · Mar 31, 2003

Yesterday at 11:10 PM calgal said this in Post #345

You know, it just becomes amusing after a while (as long as nobody posts huge Gif's, I will be ok).

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

straightforward · Mar 31, 2003

Yesterday at 07:32 PM jodrey said this in Post #344 I don't really know. Many times 'heaven' is said when actually referring to the paradise of the mediary state. From what I've heard, even many Jews believe this concept.

They have a concept called Sheol (which is often translated into the greek hades) and it is divided into two parts...and from what I have just studied this relates alot to pagan beliefs, but please don't quote me on that because I'm digging on this and am trying to learn...the two parts would be paradise and I haven't been able to find what the other side is called but it is loosly termed hades. Both sides are seen in Luke 16: 19-21 (Abrahams bosom (or side)=place of paradise for O.T. believers at the time of death). And we are told that the deep chasm between the two cannot be crossed. I believe that Matt. 8:11 ties heaven to sitting w/Abraham because it says he is in heaven. (btw we also see heaven called paradise in 2 Cor. 12:4 and in Rev 2:7 it says that those who overcome go to paradise... if paradise and heaven are two seperate places why are we also told by Jesus that we will go to heaven.)

Also, The New Naves Topical Bible directs you to see Hell when you look up Gehenna. Gehenna is a Greek word signifying the place of torment (not teaching). According to the Bible Knowledge Commentary I have: Gehenna was originally a name for a place of burning refuse, located in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jeruselem The actual word is Geenna and is translated from two Hebrew words meaning Valley of Hinnom. The Bible Knowledge Commentary also claims, Jesus used the word Geenna in 11 of its 12 N.T. occurrences (the exception is James 3:6) We find it translated as hell and there is much fire and burning but I see nothing about teaching going on there.

 I suggest that to learn more about it you talk to a Catholic about purgatory. It's quite interesting. The idea of the spirit world is similar to purgatory, but there are differences. This is not a strictly Mormon doctrine, and both Christians and Jews believe in it, although I think most protestants don't. There are enough scriptural hints to prove that there is something in between, but I'll leave someone else to address those passages for you.

Click to expand...

I was Catholic so I know some of what their thought is on the subject. (I'm hauling out my catholic encyclopedia right now...ugg, this things heavy!) I am also wondering if Eph 4:8-10 and the verses in 1 Peter are the only places in the bible that speak of Jesus decending before He ascends?

It was always my belief that that "waiting place" the Jews call Sheol was done away with after Jesus went and got the righteous Jews out of there after His death on the cross and that this had to do with His then having power over death. Can any Christians on this thread help me out on this? This discussion has lead me into some intense study and any help would be appreciated! :pray:

rnmomof7 · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 12:02 PM straightforward said this in Post #347

I was Catholic so I know some of what their thought is on the subject. (I'm hauling out my catholic encyclopedia right now...ugg, this things heavy!) I am also wondering if Eph 4:8-10 and the verses in 1 Peter are the only places in the bible that speak of Jesus decending before He ascends?

It was always my belief that that "waiting place" the Jews call Sheol was done away with after Jesus went and got the righteous Jews out of there after His death on the cross and that this had to do with His then having power over death. Can any Christians on this thread help me out on this? This discussion has lead me into some intense study and any help would be appreciated!

Click to expand...

I was also. Jodfery needs to understand that the "doctrine" of Purgatory was gleened from a non canonical (Apocrypha) book Maccabees.

In 2 Machabees (another spelling) 12:43-46, we have the reference cited by the Catholic Church to support Purgatory. If one would read verses 40 through 46, he would learn that God killed these people because of idolatry. According to Catholicism, if you die in the state of mortal sin, which idolatry is, you'll go straight to Hell when you die! Therefore, according to Catholic doctrine, Judas Machabeus was WRONG in suggesting that the people should "pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (verse 46)!

It like the Mormon teaching is false doctrine.
An interesting graft
http://www.realmormonhistory.com/planets1.jpg

jodrey · Mar 31, 2003

Yes, as I understand it, "Sheol" is the Hebrew "Hades," but are essentially the same. Let's see what I can find. This is from the LDS Bible Dictionary:

An English translation of the Hebrew word Shoel, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient. Gehenna, or Gehenna of fire, is the Greek equivalent of the valley of Hinnom, a deep glen of Jerusalem where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch (2 Chr. 28: 3; 2 Chr. 33: 6; Jer. 7: 31; Jer. 19: 2-6). It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city (2 Kgs. 23: 10), and in that way became symbolical of the place of torment (Matt. 5: 22, 29-30; Matt. 10: 28; Matt. 18: 9; Matt. 23: 15, 33; Mark 9: 43, 45, 47; Luke 12: 5; James 3: 6). Expressions about hell-fire are probably due to the impression produced on mens minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning, and are figurative of the torment of those who willfully disobey God.

I'm not aware that Christ ever did away with the concept. We also know of the general way in which people are to be resurrected. Many of the very righteous were resurrected immediately after Christ, but we learn later of the first resurrection, which will not happen until the second coming. Then there will also be a second resurrection. Where are the dead before resurrection? They cannot be in heaven or hell, so it must be that there is a place, or state of being, in between death and resurrection.

Some interesting notes on this: 1 Corinthians 15: 20-23 says, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christs at his coming." This is very intriguing. First we learn that Christ will be the first to be made alive (the firstfruits) of them that slept. People died before the coming of Christ: that's obvious; they all must have had to "sleep" until He was first resurrected. This is talking about literal death here, since the chapter is about resurrection. Therefore we also learn that all men will be resurrected ("all be made alive"). Revelation 20: 5-13 (I won't copy it) talks about the millenium and the first and second resurrections. I think it can be concluded just by this much that there is a "sleepy" state in between when we die and when we are resurrected. Judgment day does not come the day we die, but at the second coming. I think it should also be pointed out that punishment in this "temporary hell" does not necessarily mean that no learning can take place there. If we're detatched from our bodies then they would most likely be experiencing spiritual anguish, perhaps guilt or something similarly spiritually vexing; this can exist on earth as well, yet people can still be taught the gospel, and when they learn they are released from their torment. It's a very interesting subject, isn't it?

straightforward · Mar 31, 2003

Does anybody else have a view on this? The catholic encyclopedia seems to go around in circles.

Didymus · Mar 31, 2003

perhaps the souls of the saved go to heaven to be reunited with their bodies at the rapture ?

rnmomof7 · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 01:26 PM straightforward said this in Post #350

Does anybody else have a view on this? The catholic encyclopedia seems to go around in circles.

What we do know is if one believes in Purgatory one does not believe in the finished work of Christ..
A salvation by works

straightforward · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 01:33 PM Didymus said this in Post #351

perhaps the souls of the saved go to heaven to be reunited with their bodies at the rapture ?

Yes, that is how I believe it to be...what scripture would I look to for this? Did Jesus decend into hades? Some commentaries I have read, pointing to Eph. 4: 9-10, say that He decended to 'earth' when He came in the flesh and therefore was then ascending into heaven. That would mean He didn't descend into hades. But then what of 1 Peter where He does make proclomation to the spirits in prison? Would it be right to say that He went into Sheol and showed the righteous, who had lived according to what they knew of Him through the types and shadows of the O.T., the reality of who He was and who they had been waiting for? (Does any of what I just wrote make any sense? :scratch:

?) 

 

BTW...Jodrey...before aligning yourselves too closely with the Catholics because of their beliefs in purgatory you should also see that they do believe in a literal Hell...fire and all.

Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Hell. The abode of the ******. In the Old Testament the word almost always translates the Hebrew word sheol, which means the abode of all the dead, not just the wicked. It is only in the later books of the O.T. that the doctrine concerning the punishments and everlasting duration of hell begins to emerge. In the New Testament this teaching is further clarified and developed. Certain passages in the O.T., however, clearly proclaim the existence of a place of torment for the wicked, which is everlasting. These texts can be fully understood only when they are considered in the light of the N.E. revelation." ... "In the N.T. the matter is quite clear. In the first place, the word hell (gehanna, or hades in Greek) usually means the abode or state of the ****** only. And, in the second place, there is nothing more clear and certain taught in the N.T. than that hell is a reality, not just a figure of speech, and that its torments are unimaginably severe and everlasting."..."There is an additional punishment which God created, which we can call hell-fire (Matt. 13:42; 18:9). This fire is some agent outside the souls of the ****** and causes them real pain and suffering. God manifested His justice by creating eternal hell, for the evil of a mortal sin is unlimited, and so the punishment for it must be without end."

jodrey · Mar 31, 2003

What we do know is if one believes in Purgatory one does not believe in the finished work of Christ..
A salvation by works

I think it's important to make a distinction here. Maybe we should talk about faith and works since there's so much confusion around the subject. Everyone will be resurrected; that's a given, regardless of works or anything else beside the atonement. This physical life is what is meant in 1 Corinthians 15: 20-23, not salvation, or spiritual, eternal life. I suspect that some scriptures are interpreted as meaning that all will be saved. I need to see some scriptures, so show me what you have supporting the doctrine of salvation without works. All will be saved from the first death, which is the physical death, and all will be resurrected, but not everyone will be saved from the second, or spiritual death, the same way. Through Adam's sin man inherits physical death (Adam will become like the dust of the earth as punishment, meaning man will thenceforth die); through Christ, and the sinless sacrifice, that curse is compensated, and through Him all can overcome the physical death. Does that make sense?

Maccabees isn't the only scripture that supports the mediary state; there are many others as well. I'm not saying that I believe in Purgatory, but for this discussion of proving that such a mediary state exists, it is quite acceptable for us to simply look at it as Purgatory or anything else of the same nature.

perhaps the souls of the saved go to heaven to be reunited with their bodies at the rapture ?

Interesting thought. However, Jesus did go preach to spirits in prison, and that would then have to be hell (assuming that the righteous go to the heaven most know it as). This would mean that hell is not necessarily permanent, but that it can be escaped. Then would heaven be the same way? No, there is a difference in hells, I think; one is temporary and the other is permanant, and is called outer darkness in Matthew, which is where the sons of perdition end up.

straightforward · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 02:45 PM jodrey said this in Post #354 I need to see some scriptures, so show me what you have supporting the doctrine of salvation without works

No salvation by works:
Rom. 3:20-31, rom 4: 1-22, Rom 11:6, Gal 2:16-21, Eph. 2: 8-10, 2 Tim. 1:9, Titus 3:4-7, and James 2:10 points out what we are up against when it comes to our discussion about hell. How can anyone get to a better place than anyone else when we are told here that if you break one you are guilty of breaking them all...sounds like a pretty level playing field.

Interesting thought. However, Jesus did go preach to spirits in prison, and that would then have to be hell (assuming that the righteous go to the heaven most know it as). This would mean that hell is not necessarily permanent, but that it can be escaped.

Click to expand...

But, again, in Luke 16: 19-31 we are told that no one can cross over the chasm seperating the two. I'm pretty sure the rich man saw which was better and he didn't instantly zap over to the other side.

I would have written out all of the above references to scripture however I had done it all once and my son came by and pulled the cord for the keyboard and lost it all. Now I have to figure out what has happened to my screen...things are missing. UGG!

rnmomof7 · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 02:45 PM jodrey said this in Post #354

I think it's important to make a distinction here. Maybe we should talk about faith and works since there's so much confusion around the subject. Everyone will be resurrected; that's a given, regardless of works or anything else beside the atonement. This physical life is what is meant in 1 Corinthians 15: 20-23, not salvation, or spiritual, eternal life. I suspect that some scriptures are interpreted as meaning that all will be saved. I need to see some scriptures, so show me what you have supporting the doctrine of salvation without works. All will be saved from the first death, which is the physical death, and all will be resurrected, but not everyone will be saved from the second, or spiritual death, the same way. Through Adam's sin man inherits physical death (Adam will become like the dust of the earth as punishment, meaning man will thenceforth die); through Christ, and the sinless sacrifice, that curse is compensated, and through Him all can overcome the physical death. Does that make sense?

Maccabees isn't the only scripture that supports the mediary state; there are many others as well. I'm not saying that I believe in Purgatory, but for this discussion of proving that such a mediary state exists, it is quite acceptable for us to simply look at it as Purgatory or anything else of the same nature

Could you dig me up other Biblical citations on that ?
To imply that one needs to "burn off" his own sin means that Jesus did not do it all.
All of Protestantism rejects it ..so I find it hard to believe that it is anywhere in the word or the Sola Scriptura reformists would have accepted it

Let me know what you find ok?

Interesting thought. However, Jesus did go preach to spirits in prison, and that would then have to be hell (assuming that the righteous go to the heaven most know it as). This would mean that hell is not necessarily permanent, but that it can be escaped. Then would heaven be the same way? No, there is a difference in hells, I think; one is temporary and the other is permanant, and is called outer darkness in Matthew, which is where the sons of perdition end up.

Click to expand...

Even Catholics do not believe he went into Hell or Purgatory..

It is generally agred that because of the context it is talking about the time of Noah

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. NIV

straightforward · Mar 31, 2003

Thank You rnmomof7...by taking us back to that verse I think you tied up some loose ends and helped me in the right direction with my study.

isshinwhat · Mar 31, 2003

What we do know is if one believes in Purgatory one does not believe in the finished work of Christ..
A salvation by works

As a Catholic, I do belief Christ's work was completed, yet I do feel that it is not applied to all it will be applied to. Purgatory deals with Sanctification of souls and nothing more. It is not a place where those who were not saved get a second chance, or where they work out their salvation of their own merit. Think of it like this.

In this life we are all convicted of sins that we commit. For me, that conviction of the Holy Spirit usually hurts. It cuts right to the deepest part of me and it's not a fun experience. BUT.... soon after that conviction I am filled with the Holy Spirit and feel the love of God in a much more profound way.

Now picture Purgatory as the final convictiopn of the Holy Spirit. For all of those things that we were not convicted of during our lifetime, we will be convicted of before we enter Heaven. After that conviction, the filling of the Holy Spirit will not just be partial as it is on earth because of our shortcomings, it will be complete. It will be the Beatific Vision of God. Witness the conviction of Isaiah before he is cleansed by the coal of the Seraphim. It is this type of conviction after judgment which Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 3:15 which burns off those things we have fallen short through, leaving only pure behind. By whatever name you wish to call this process of final sanctification after death, the Catholic Church chooses to call it Purgatory.

God Bless,

Neal

isshinwhat · Mar 31, 2003

It was always my belief that that "waiting place" the Jews call Sheol was done away with after Jesus went and got the righteous Jews out of there after His death on the cross and that this had to do with His then having power over death.

That is the Catholic teaching. Before the time of Christ, the righteoous could not enter Heaven, because, as Christ said, no one had yet beheld the face of the Father but Himself. After Christ's death, though, he descended into Sheol, the abode of the dead, and took those holy souls there with Himself into Heaven. Christ was the door, and before His arrival, no one could enter Heaven.

Some theologians have speculated that Sheol became Purgatory, but that is really just speculation. The Catholic Church has never taught whether Purgatory is a place or a state.

Hope this helped.

God Bless,

Neal

jodrey · Mar 31, 2003

Interesting, but what of the scriptures that state that works are necessary? Paul also taught that works affect salvation.

Romans 2: 5-10 says, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" This is very plainly stating that those who do good works will be glorified and will have eternal life, and those who "doeth evil" are basically ******.

Matthew 7: 21 says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Unless we're talking about two different kingdoms, faith is not enough for salvation, this according to the words of Christ Himself.

Matthew 16: 27 says, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Does this really need clarification?

Acts 10: 34-35 says, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Again, only those that fear Him and work righteousness will be accepted.

2 Corinthians 5: 9-10 says, "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

And James 1: 22-27 says, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this mans religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Another -- James 2: 21-22 says: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

One more for now -- 1 Peter 1: 15-17 says, "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every mans work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

There are many, many more which state the same things. Moreover, if works are not required then why have a law at all? Why are we given commandments? Works are required, as stated numerous times in scripture. I admit that viewing these and then going back to Paul's epistle to the Romans can be somewhat confusing. The two concepts appear to contradict each other; of course, they don't. Can anyone here tell us of the relationship of faith, works, and grace that accounts towards our salvation?

Could you dig me up other Biblical citations on that ?

Citations on what? I said a few different things in that quote.

To imply that one needs to "burn off" his own sin means that Jesus did not do it all.

Well, define "all." Remember, we still have free will. Exercising our free will correctly is important to our salvation. We have to show that we are worthy of His grace. He suffered for us all, but it's up to us of whether we accept it or not. Proclaiming Him as Lord and Savior is not the end; in fact, it is only the beginning. He will not force us to make certain decisions because that's not the kind of being He is. We come to Him through our works and therefore our faith is made perfect; this is the process by which to become perfect, as we are commanded to be in Matthew 5: 48. Grace is necessary, but what good is Christ's example if we don't follow Him? Following is an action, not a passive state of mind.

Even Catholics do not believe he went into Hell or Purgatory..

It is generally agred that because of the context it is talking about the time of Noah

Did you read the passage? I don't see what you're saying. Are you suggesting that Jesus went back in time? There's nothing else that the passage could be implying except that 1) There were disobedient people that were drowned in the flood; 2) They're dead; 3) Christ went to teach them during His 3-day absence from earth. It's quite obvious what it means to me. If you don't believe that Christ taught once-disobedient dead people then you do not believe the scriptures.

Thanks for the explanation, isshinwhat.

Has anyone been thru a Mormon temple?

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