Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Let's review the God equation.
Adam1 = the polus/ many made sinners > > >
Last Adam = the identical polus/many "made righteous"
.
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say "all" he used "pas" not "pollus" many.
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
 
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Saint Steven

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Wow! And who says miracles don't happen? You are at least now beginning to examine the cited passage in its proper context, but now I am finally seeing the problem in that the version you are citing this passage from makes it appear to mean differently than how it reads in the King James Version, a word for word translation, which translates it as follows:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." (v. 32)

In the KJV, the unbelief of the Jews is being clearly emphasized here. Why others use a word that makes it appear more generalized rather than specifically referencing the unbelief of the Jewish people, I do not know since the Textus Receptus uses two words "πάντας" and "πᾶς" meaning "them all", thus placing emphasis on the unbelief of the Jews rather than just the word "pas" meaning "all" whereas other translations simply use "all" rather than "them all" and thus making the passage appear to be making unbelief more generalized than what was originally intended. Very dishonest of those translators in my opinion, whereas the KJV translators preserved the integrity of the passage in that they did not omit any of the Greek words in their translation of the passage, but you don't have to take my word for that, you can verify what I am saying here:
no
Looks like you are the one out-of-context this time.

Of whom does the passage say "not believed", "unbelief"?
1) Ye = the gentiles - vs 30
2) Their = the Jews - vs 30-31
3) Them all = everyone - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who does the passage say "obtained mercy", "mercy", "have mercy"?
1) Ye = the gentiles - vs 30-31
2) They = the Jews - vs 31
3) All = everyone - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 
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Der Alte

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And according to passages such as verse 26, they will not always remain in unbelief.
If it was a done deal and all Israel the good, the bad and the ugly would all be saved vs. 23 would not have been necessary.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
 
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Saint Steven

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But not everyone is justified or made righteous because not all accept the means made for them to be justified and righteous.
You are distorting what the verse plainly says to fit your warped doctrine.
The single righteous act that resulted in justification and life for all people was what Christ did on our behalf.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Saint Steven

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But not everyone is justified or made righteous because not all accept the means made for them to be justified and righteous.

Nope.
The "many" who were made sinners was "all". Therefore, the "many" who will be made righteous is "all". Same as verse 18.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Saint Steven

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I addressed this in post 991.
No you didn't.

Who does the passage say was "disobedient"?
1) You gentiles - vs 30
2) The Jews - vs 30-31
3) Everyone - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Same exercise with the word "mercy".

Who does the passage say received "mercy"?
1) You gentiles - vs 30-31
2) The Jews - vs 31
3) All - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
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But only in the Lord, not apart from the Lord.
All people are in the Lord. When was Jesus lifted up?
That's when he drew all --- ALL --- people to himself.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
 
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FineLinen

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"Might" = dunamis =

Inherent ability & capability to do anything.

Absolutely denotes power to work & carry something into effect.

God's power in action in His mighty works.

Romans 11:32 (NIRV) "God has found everyone guilty of not obeying him. So now he can have mercy on everyone."

"For God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness." YLT

"For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy." -Weymouth-

"For God hath shut up all together, in a refusal to yield, in order that, upon all, he may bestow mercy." -Rotherham Emphasized-
 
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Der Alte

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All people are in the Lord. When was Jesus lifted up?
That's when he drew all --- ALL --- people to himself.
John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Total nonsense. If that was true there would be no crime, no sin.
 
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No wonder the "thought" is lost. - lol

Word for word is the least accurate.

¿Qué hora es?

Word for word translation:
What hour is?

Thought for thought translation:
What time is it?

No, word for word is the most accurate because it is only concerned with translation; with what the text is actually saying, not with what might be in between the lines because there is nothing in between the lines.
 
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All people are in the Lord. When was Jesus lifted up?
That's when he drew all --- ALL --- people to himself.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The one you call the invisible man answered this one pretty well:

"Total nonsense. If that was true there would be no crime, no sin." Post 1011
 
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If it was a done deal and all Israel the good, the bad and the ugly would all be saved vs. 23 would not have been necessary.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


The passage is speaking of them as a nation which does not mean that every individual Jew among them will come to repentance, and besides, when all is said and done, all that will remain within the nation will be the righteous, but that is another subject altogether.
 
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You are distorting what the verse plainly says to fit your warped doctrine.
The single righteous act that resulted in justification and life for all people was what Christ did on our behalf.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


In order for your doctrine to work, scripture would have to deny eternal punishment for the wicked and unbelieving and it does not but teaches the exact opposite; We are only justified by faith in what Christ did to redeem us, but without faith, we are not justified and scripture says that as well. (Heb. 11:6)
 
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No you didn't.

Who does the passage say was "disobedient"?
1) You gentiles - vs 30
2) The Jews - vs 30-31
3) Everyone - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Same exercise with the word "mercy".

Who does the passage say received "mercy"?
1) You gentiles - vs 30-31
2) The Jews - vs 31
3) All - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yes I did and I even explained how the Greek supported the KJV translators to translate it the way they did, but you act as though you didn't read that post:

"In the KJV, the unbelief of the Jews is being clearly emphasized here. Why others use a word that makes it appear more generalized rather than specifically referencing the unbelief of the Jewish people, I do not know since the Textus Receptus uses two words "πάντας" and "πᾶς" meaning "them all", thus placing emphasis on the unbelief of the Jews rather than just the word "pas" meaning "all" whereas other translations simply use "all" rather than "them all" and thus making the passage appear to be making unbelief more generalized than what was originally intended."

Post 991
 
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Nope.
The "many" who were made sinners was "all". Therefore, the "many" who will be made righteous is "all". Same as verse 18.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


Already answered in post 1015. Go there.
 
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Looks like you are the one out-of-context this time.

Of whom does the passage say "not believed", "unbelief"?
1) Ye = the gentiles - vs 30
2) Their = the Jews - vs 30-31
3) Them all = everyone - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who does the passage say "obtained mercy", "mercy", "have mercy"?
1) Ye = the gentiles - vs 30-31
2) They = the Jews - vs 31
3) All = everyone - vs 32 (both Jews and gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Same answer as before:

In the KJV, the unbelief of the Jews is being clearly emphasized here. Why others use a word that makes it appear more generalized rather than specifically referencing the unbelief of the Jewish people, I do not know since the Textus Receptus uses two words "πάντας" and "πᾶς" meaning "them all", thus placing emphasis on the unbelief of the Jews rather than just the word "pas" meaning "all"...but you don't have to take my word for that, you can verify what I am saying here:
no
 
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FineLinen

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Same answer as before:

In the KJV, the unbelief of the Jews is being clearly emphasized here. Why others use a word that makes it appear more generalized rather than specifically referencing the unbelief of the Jewish people, I do not know since the Textus Receptus uses two words "πάντας" and "πᾶς" meaning "them all", thus placing emphasis on the unbelief of the Jews rather than just the word "pas" meaning "all"...but you don't have to take my word for that, you can verify what I am saying here:
no

pa’ß =

Radically means “all.” (simple version)


Used without the article it means “every,” every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, “every building,” and the text in Eph. 3:15, “every family,” and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, “every house;”

or, it may signify “the highest degree,” the maximum of what is referred to, as, “with all boldness” Acts 4:29.

Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like “Israel,” it signifies either “all” or “the whole,” e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36.

Used with the article, it means the whole of one object.

"God has found everyone guilty of not obeying him. So now he can have mercy on everyone." -NIRV-

"For God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness." -YLT-

"For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy." -Weymouth-

"For God hath shut up all together, in a refusal to yield, in order that, upon all, he may bestow mercy." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Advanced version available upon request =

Greek English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich

PAS, pa’sa, pa’n gen. pantov", pavsh", pantov" (dat. pl. pa’si and pa’sin vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. §5, 28; cf. Rob. 219-21) (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, En., Ep. Arist., Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patr.).
 
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FineLinen

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1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned [some] men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon [some].”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him [some] things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are [some] things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some (tis)
 
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No, word for word is the most accurate because it is only concerned with translation; with what the text is actually saying, not with what might be in between the lines because there is nothing in between the lines.
Nonsense.

Saint Steven said:
No wonder the "thought" is lost. - lol

Word for word is the least accurate.

¿Qué hora es?

Word for word translation:
What hour is?

Thought for thought translation:
What time is it?
 
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Total nonsense. If that was true there would be no crime, no sin.
You didn't answer the question. (in bold below)
Jesus was lifted up (crucified) to pay the consequence of sin (crime), which was death.
At the moment this happened he drew all --- ALL --- humankind to himself.

Saint Steven said:
All people are in the Lord. When was Jesus lifted up?
That's when he drew all --- ALL --- people to himself.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
 
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