Head of GOARCH says that non-Orthodox spouses may receive communion

Lukaris

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I know in our parish there have been inter Christian marriages for generations. Every couple who decided to raise their family Orthodox while a parent remained Catholic or Protestant knew the status quo & have seemed fine with it. Many non Orthodox Christian parents regularly attend the DL & have been great supporters of our parish. Nonetheless, they do not receive the Eucharist.

This guy just seems like another pot stirrer. These seem like some sort of tactic & are really irksome. Forgive me in light of this being Palm Sunday & at a time of such overall sadness around us.
 
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E.C.

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Unsurprisingly, OrthoChristian's report has proven to be completely true: Abp. Elpidophoros publicly reiterates his stance on open Communion for non-Orthodox spouses
Wow.

I told a GOARCH priest in Virginia one time why I avoid GOARCH parishes. If the GOARCH doesn't correct this bishop or find a new heirarch than they'll just continue to decline. I see the writing on the wall for them because I saw the same crud when I was Roman Catholic and people fought over Vatican II politics. They scrapped the spiritual life, quit encouraging the priesthood/monasticism, and put ethnic politics above the Faith. Greek Archdiocese is doing the same thing.

What jurisdictions are still legit ?

OCA
ROCOR
Antiochian
Romanian
Bulgarian
?


.
Oh, they're all legit now, but EP and Moscow aren't communing each other. In order for one jurisdiction not to be legit, they would have been either go into schism themselves (like HOCNA did leaving ROCOR) or be excommunicated by the rest of the Church.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Lord please protect The Church from schism and heresies.

Please Holy Spirit help The Patriarchs to make the right decisions.

Keep Us Together Lord in The Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit Amen.


.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Lord please protect The Church from schism and heresies.

Please Holy Spirit help The Patriarchs to make the right decisions.

Keep Us Together Lord in The Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit Amen.


.

amen!
 
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vanOldenphatt

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Ok here you go. The Abp. says it plainly and at length (around the 35 minute mark): he intends to commune people who have been married in the Greek Orthodox Church who (for whatever or no reason) refuse to actually join the Church, that is, to conscientiously confess Christ in the Orthodox manner. We infer that he means commune those who come to the Chalice.
His grammar and the theology it lays out is interesting: he states that we (Greek Orthodox clergy) are separating from one sacrament those whom we have joined with another; that refusing Communion to those married in the Orthodox manner is inconsistent. He says nothing about the rational confession of faith of the spouses who steadfastly refuse to convert to Orthodoxy. He reduces their non-confession to insignificance and blames clergy for imposing a separation between spouses which is artificial, unreal.
The Abp. is a heretic. The only out for Greek Orthodox Clergy is that he speaks so far only for himself as celebrant and not authoritatively; his administrative power does not extend beyond a small district around NYC and each Metropolis has its own Bishop who answers directly to the Phanar.
The Abp. is plain to state his concern is demographic; in this light he feels compelled to sacrifice anything for the sake of staunching the haemorrhage of former Greek Orthodox faithful from his Archdiocese. Without them his tenure is at an end and his vocational trajectory to the Ecumenical Throne is thwarted.
 
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rakovsky

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The Abp. says it plainly and at length (around the 35 minute mark): he intends to commune people who have been married in the Greek Orthodox Church who (for whatever or no reason) refuse to actually join the Church, that is, to conscientiously confess Christ in the Orthodox manner. We infer that he means commune those who come to the Chalice.
His answer is logically and grammatically ambiguous. He says that he "personally" disagrees with the Greek Church's stance and that he "personally" would commune the heterodox spouses. It's ambiguous because he is not explicitly and specifically saying that if he knows that someone is a heterodox spouse and if today the person would come to the chalice that he would commune the spouse even when the church has in place rules that ban this. But nor is he explicitly specifying that he is only talking about what he would personally do if he could impose his own beliefs on the church. In other words, he is not specifying whether he would just do this in a purely hypothetical situation absent any church rule, or if in real life when he is put in this situation that this is what he does. He did not explicitly say that he communes heterodox spouses, but nor did he explicitly deny it.

For instance, if you said "Personally, I would join the army", the meaning is logically ambiguous. Someone would need the context to know what you meant for certain. For example, did you mean that you would do it if there were a draft, if there were a war, if you were young or old enough, or all three? Normally, if there was no context, I would interpret this statement to mean that the person would join the army if the situation called for it, ie. if there were a draft, but that by putting it in the hypothetical sense, the statement would mean that currently the person is not going to join the army.

Furthermore, his statement this February was not reported by witnesses as this ambiguous. In what people reported, he said explicitly that heterodox spouses can commune. Supposedly, he did not use hypothetical terms like "Personally, I would do ____."

If it were really important to find out what he said, you could write to the people in the audience and ask for his explicit sentences.

His grammar and the theology it lays out is interesting: he states that we (Greek Orthodox clergy) are separating from one sacrament those whom we have joined with another; that refusing Communion to those married in the Orthodox manner is inconsistent.
I guess that my understanding of the EO theology, if I were going to respond to the Abp.'s explanation, is that the heterodox spouses are allowed marriage by ekonomia. I could be mistaken, but this is my impression. The EO church also allows communion to OOs, RCs, and Anglicans (I don't know about Lutherans) by ekonomia on certain exceptional cases. I guess you could make the argument that being married is an exceptional case that can invoke ekonomia.

One problem with allowing it for heterodox spouses is practical: the EO church requires confession and fasting before communion. Are the heterodox spouses going to do the confession and fasting? Probably not.

The priest seems basically worried that if the heterodox spouses don't get communion, then the whole couple is going to leave because it won't be happy if one spouse can't commune, although he doesn't state it so clearly. I can see that problem, but still, the answer that he proposes doesn't seem to be how the patristic Church works, ie. allowing open communion for the sake of not losing members. There are lots of things that can cause people in modern non-Orthodox countries to leave, not just the issue of communion. Another reason is that GOARCH is seen as culturally very Greek and doesn't do outreach to non-Greeks in the same way that, say, AOCNA has. Theologically, the GOARCH is allowed in fact to give up Greek culture and to do outreach to non-Greeks, but it's not allowed to do open communion.

Another practical objection to his argument is that even if you opened communion, it doesn't mean that people would stay. In the 1950's, the RC Church and the EO church both had closed communion, but the RC Church had a stricter demand of raising the kids Catholic. Certainly in some cases of mixed marriages, RC strictness actually led to kids in mixed EO-RC marriages being raised Catholic and to EOs losing membership to the RCs. So having strictness on issues like communion and raising kids seems possibly to work either way.

To give an analogy, imagine if the Amish are strict and shun anyone who marries non-Amish. They could lose members because some of them will marry non-Amish and won't be welcomed back. But imagine if the Amish loosen up and fully welcome anyone, Amish or not, into all aspects of their communal and religious life, with an Open Door policy. Alot of Amish kids might feel fully open to marry outside the faith, and then in their situation of mixed marriages, they might find that the Amish society is too quaint and doesn't fit their cultural preferences, and that mainstream churches work better, and so they leave anyway. The hypothetical Amish "Open Door" policy ended up with non-Amish acquainting themselves deeply with non-Amish cultural life and finding the latter preferable.

The Amish analogy shows that whether one has a closed door policy or an open door one, a sect can still drain members out. The real reason why they would lose members is not because of an open or closed door policy, but because of other factors, like the fact that they are living in the midst of a non-Amish society, or because Amish ways really are counterproductive (like not using electricity). EOs could be losing members and the closed communion policy could be only a very minor factor in contrast to much stronger factors like failing to do enough outreach to non-Greeks, over-emphasizing Greek culture, being in a society that is becoming less religious or a society that is generally culturally Protestant with some Catholicism.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The EO church also allows communion to OOs, RCs, and Anglicans (I don't know about Lutherans) by ekonomia on certain exceptional cases.

the only official one I know is certain cases for the non-Chalcedonians, and that's with those jurisdictions whose lands overlap them. I have never heard of anything official that says we can commune RC or Anglicans, aside from members of the RC.
 
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rakovsky

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the only official one I know is certain cases for the non-Chalcedonians, and that's with those jurisdictions whose lands overlap them. I have never heard of anything official that says we can commune RC or Anglicans, aside from members of the RC.
It's in the Thyateira Confession that EP Athenagoras accepted. It is for exceptional extreme individual instances like not having an EO church with reachable distances, not for regularly communing heterodox spouses.
It would not be as authoritative for the OCA because it was not written in the OCA, but was expressing the EO position as the EP authors and the EP understood it to be.

The RCs have a policy from before Vatican II of communing Prorestants in extreme exceptional instances like someone being possibly near death, getting last rites, etc. I imagine that EOs have something similar under ekonomia. Maybe it depends on the bishop. Am I wrong and the OCA has no such policy and is always strictly and absolutely closed for nonorthodox no matter what?
 
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ArmyMatt

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It's in the Thyateira Confession that EP Athenagoras accepted. It is for exceptional extreme individual instances like not having an EO church with reachable distances, not for regularly communing heterodox spouses.
It would not be as authoritative for the OCA because it was not written in the OCA, but was expressing the EO position as the EP authors and the EP understood it to be.

The RCs have a policy from before Vatican II of communing Prorestants in extreme exceptional instances like someone being possibly near death, getting last rites, etc. I imagine that EOs have something similar under ekonomia. Maybe it depends on the bishop. Am I wrong and the OCA has no such policy and is always strictly and absolutely closed for nonorthodox no matter what?

well, bishops can speak for themselves. just because one EP accepted it, that doesn't mean everyone under him did or would.

as for the OCA, we are banned from communing any non-Orthodox (to include schismatics).
 
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Nick T

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Not to defend the Archbishop's statement, but he does say that "These kind of decisions can only be taken by the Ecumenical Patriarch". I think this indicates at least that he doesn't intend to make this an official policy unless the Phanar does, which is extremely unlikely.

Nevertheless it is pretty depressing to hear this kind of stuff from a Canonical Archbishop- Lord have mercy indeed!
 
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walking.away.123

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just because one EP accepted it, that doesn't mean everyone under him did or would.

I strongly dislike making this type of assumption, but Fr. John Whiteford had a post on his blog which included a story about the Metropolitan of Chicago ordering priests no to give instructions before communion that only those who were Orthodox were allowed to approach. The reasoning sounded good, it's not in the original text, but keeping in mind instructions the Greeks have deleted (and no one really enforces) that at the call "The doors, the doors" everyone in the church at this time would have been a baptized and Chrismated Orthodox person, the instruction seems relevant.
Now, I will not give any opinions about Fr. John Whiteford reliability and will leave that up to you. His quoted source for this was a Blogger page which has been wiped of content. Speaking personally, I would not have published anything based on that evidence and feel guilty bringing it up here, but does look like a pattern to watch for, but not yet draw conclusions about for where the GOA is going.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I strongly dislike making this type of assumption, but Fr. John Whiteford had a post on his blog which included a story about the Metropolitan of Chicago ordering priests no to give instructions before communion that only those who were Orthodox were allowed to approach. The reasoning sounded good, it's not in the original text, but keeping in mind instructions the Greeks have deleted (and no one really enforces) that at the call "The doors, the doors" everyone in the church at this time would have been a baptized and Chrismated Orthodox person, the instruction seems relevant.
Now, I will not give any opinions about Fr. John Whiteford reliability and will leave that up to you. His quoted source for this was a Blogger page which has been wiped of content. Speaking personally, I would not have published anything based on that evidence and feel guilty bringing it up here, but does look like a pattern to watch for, but not yet draw conclusions about for where the GOA is going.

Having said all that, I was present when the Archbishop, then an archimantrite if memory serves, gave a lecture at Holy Cross seminary entitled "Orthodoxy at the Crossroads" or something to that effect. It's online, but there are certain phrases I remember differently from the published text that made it sound more pointed, and it has nothing to do with this situation. It covered a lot of points, and was not well received by most. His Eminence was asked to explain certain parts of his lecture. I got the impression that, under questioning, he was walking back some of the statements, making me think they were not totally of his own creation, but that was just an impression. I'm wondering if he is not either still slowly delivering a message, or if he is just not very good at taking a position and elaborating it further under questioning.

In any case, he did say such decisions about giving directions in such matters as this are by the authority of the Patriarch (as has been done regarding spouses which jurisdictions can be married in an Orthodox service and/or received by Chrismation only). I don't see a policy change soon, at worse it's a soft-policy left open to the pastors discretion as often happens when a priest decides to ignore the fact that a communicant is openly in a homosexual relationship. George Pappas of the Pappas Post wrote something about this situation, though not in the Pappas Post. It happens a lot more than I thought. This could be quietly signaling that priests will not be in trouble for being less than diligent about who takes communion, without calling it open communion. Or it could just be His Eminance's own opinion as he states.

Too many theories and rabbit trails. It's not something I would worry about much if I wasn't a GOA clergyman. They will sort it out among themselves. Our only job is to prepare ourselves to receive communion. Sorry for all those who can't this Easter. I hope to be able to.

they still don't need to follow the EP by default.
 
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rakovsky

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as for the OCA, we are banned from communing any non-Orthodox (to include schismatics).
I had the impression that a priest could do this in an emergency like the Roman Catholic ones could do before Vatican II in the case of Last Rites, based on ekonomia.

I am talking about very rare cases, so it's hard for me to find information about this. It seems to me as a matter of logic that if we say that it's OK for a priest to commune OOs based on ekonomia despite their status as either schismatic or heretical depending on how one wants to define them, then it seems that the ekonomia by extension could also justify communion in the case of RCs, Lutherans, and Continuing Anglicans.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I had the impression that a priest could do this in an emergency like the Roman Catholic ones could do before Vatican II in the case of Last Rites, based on ekonomia.

I am talking about very rare cases, so it's hard for me to find information about this. It seems to me as a matter of logic that if we say that it's OK for a priest to commune OOs based on ekonomia despite their status as either schismatic or heretical depending on how one wants to define them, then it seems that the ekonomia by extension could also justify communion in the case of RCs, Lutherans, and Continuing Anglicans.

not that I have been taught. it'd be spiritually harmful for me to commune or absolve a heterodox (to include the Orientals).

plus, personally, I find it to be very disrespectful to their history and tradition.
 
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prodromos

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Not to defend the Archbishop's statement, but he does say that "These kind of decisions can only be taken by the Ecumenical Patriarch". I think this indicates at least that he doesn't intend to make this an official policy unless the Phanar does, which is extremely unlikely.

Nevertheless it is pretty depressing to hear this kind of stuff from a Canonical Archbishop- Lord have mercy indeed!
That statement itself is problematic, as it makes out the EP to have the same position as the Pope does in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church does not have a papacy. These kind of decisions can only be made by a council of bishops, and any false decisions will be rejected by the Church.
 
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Phronema

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as for the OCA, we are banned from communing any non-Orthodox (to include schismatics).

I visited an OCA parish in Birmingham, AL and the priest, and deacon were very particular about whether or not I was Orthodox if I were to be receiving the Holy Eucharist. I'm glad they were doing it properly, and it didn't seem wrong, or out of place to me.

On a side note the presiding priest was outstanding, and I've really enjoyed his homilies.
 
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rakovsky

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I visited an OCA parish in Birmingham, AL and the priest, and deacon were very particular about whether or not I was Orthodox if I were to be receiving the Holy Eucharist. I'm glad they were doing it properly, and it didn't seem wrong, or out of place to me.
Right. This is not the kind of situation I am talking about where a random heterodox person (or a heterodox spouse, whether RC or otherwise) comes into a church and wants communion, but rather an extreme temporarily exception, like if you are 100,000 miles from an EO church and can't get to one for a year.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Right. This is not the kind of situation I am talking about where a random heterodox person (or a heterodox spouse, whether RC or otherwise) comes into a church and wants communion, but rather an extreme temporarily exception, like if you are 100,000 miles from an EO church and can't get to one for a year.

that happened to me in Afghanistan. I waited.
 
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Phronema

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Right. This is not the kind of situation I am talking about where a random heterodox person (or a heterodox spouse, whether RC or otherwise) comes into a church and wants communion, but rather an extreme temporarily exception, like if you are 100,000 miles from an EO church and can't get to one for a year.

I remember hearing/reading that we could receive the Holy Eucharist from a RC priest in a rare situation like being on your death bed if they were willing to administer it, and I don't really know if that's the case or not. The problem is all of a sudden different issues that used to be a "no-go" become okay, and it's chocked up to ekonomia. Then it becomes a slippery slope as it sets a precedent, and then how far is it allowed to go? What would our Pillars of Orthodoxy think about this? I personally am not a huge fan of leniency on those types of matters, but then that's left up to the bishops, and priests.

Also, I don't mean any of this toward you personally I'm just bringing up points.

As for the rare situation you're talking about where a person just can't get to one I don't personally see that as being a justified reason. Death? That might be another story, but again I'm in no position to say one way or another.
 
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