DID GOD FORSAKE HIS SON?

Jesus is YHWH · Apr 7, 2020

Here is a question for the group which I believe Christianity has been duped into believing a false concept of God.

Many preachers, teachers, pastors, theologians etc..... say the following:

God cannot look upon sin, God cannot allow sin into His presence, God must turn away from looking at sin and similar cliche's .

Is this biblical ?

ABSOLUTELY NOT !

Has anyone ever read the opening chapter of Job ?

What we read and find happening there is a conversation between satan ( the epitome of sin,evil etc..) and God over His protection of His servant Job. So we see this conversation between God and satan in heaven over Job. satan is allowed into the very presence of God.

Jesus is fully God and was taken away into the wilderness to be tested by satan. They were " face to face" speaking to one another and Jesus was tested/tempted by satan.

Jesus washed judas feet knowing he was about to go and make that treacherous deal with the leaders to betray Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus said it would of been better that person never have been born than to be the one who betrayed Him.

Jesus lived among sinful people His entire life as God Incarnate. He came to save sinners. He lived with them, ate with them, healed them, loved them etc.....and eventually died for them even forgiving those who mocked and crucified Him on the cross.

So God does not turn away from sin nor sinners but in fact pursues us, loves us and died for us.

Paul was KILLING christians( horrific sins) yet Jesus knocks Saul off of his horse and asks him why are you persecuting Me ?

Jesus pursued Saul who became Paul and converted him on the road to Damascus.

These are just a few things for us to think about and have our minds renewed about what is true about God and what is not true.

hope this helps !!!

Rigatoni · Apr 7, 2020

childeye 2 said:
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

When I read the above, it means to me that Jesus suffered the blame of sin onto his self so that we shouldn't be blamed who believe on him. Jesus didn't transform into sin on the cross.

This is why I believe his blood is a covering for sin that cleanses the conscience of guilt. However if we truly believe on him, then we also must not blame others and carry our own cross likewise, otherwise we are not worthy of his sacrifice and we deny God's grace. In emulating the Christ's Love on the cross, we too become the righteousness of God. Hence righteousness is by grace through faith in Christ.

NIV 2 Corinthians 5:18
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 5:18-21

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You raise an interesting point. This is something that's perplexed me for some time: Did Jesus become sin, were our sins transferred to Him or did He simply take our punishment?

I also find it interesting in regards to Jesus becoming a curse for us:

Galatians 3:13 said:
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

Jesus became a curse for us, so that we could be redeemed from the curse of not obeying the law, and so that we could receive the promise / blessing of the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus literally become a curse, or was the curse that we deserved simply transferred to Him?

friend of · Apr 7, 2020

Anthony7 said:
Did Jesus literally become a curse, or was the curse that we deserved simply transferred to Him?

Jesus became a curse but then nullified it with His power

childeye 2 · Apr 7, 2020

Anthony7 said:
You raise an interesting point. This is something that's perplexed me for some time: Did Jesus become sin, were our sins transferred to Him or did He simply take our punishment?

I also find it interesting in regards to Jesus becoming a curse for us:

Jesus became a curse for us, so that we could be redeemed from the curse of not obeying the law, and so that we could receive the promise / blessing of the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus literally become a curse, or was the curse that we deserved simply transferred to Him?

I have pondered who was to blame for sin. If not mankind who was made in God's Image, then is God to blame? And since surely it is wrong to blame God, then the blame must fall on mankind. But wait. What if there is a circumstance where neither were to blame because mankind in their innocence were vulnerable to deception? Even the deception of Satan who uses the circumstance of mankind's innocence to create perceived faults in our minds, wherein he could sow enmity between God and mankind and also find cause for offence between each and every person. Theoretically in such a scenario, Satan could sow one lie and play both ends against the middle escalating the perceived offence back and forth.

I believe that Jesus took the blame/curse, because he knew Satan had built a kingdom based on sowing distrust through blame/accusation/temptation, from the beginning. Wherefore scripture says that Jesus was justified and also says that he justified many.

fewme · Apr 7, 2020

It might be a wee impolite to enter a forum by replying on a post, but your post lured me to join this forum. Very well said

.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 7, 2020

Noticing a big non-response to me post on this...read Isaiah 53...makes clear just how much Christ had to suffer in His soul.
If one follows the logic of the OP one would easily also be led to conclude Christ did not have to die for us.
We experienced spiritual separation from God when Adam and Eve brought sin into the world...led OUT of the Garden. But, Christ...according to Romans 5:18-19 Jesus reversed the curse...
Romans 5:18-19:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Therefore the separation from God that Christ felt and cried out for was both real and necessary to be that fully acceptable sin offering for mankind.

James Honigman · Apr 7, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Great thread I put this together a while ago let me know what you think.

12 facts about God and Jesus last words.

Some people teach when Jesus said My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me that the Father departed, deserted and turned His back upon His Son to bear Gods wrath on the cross. But is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

1-God is Triune
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated or abandoned.
3- God doesn't send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning and all the gospel accounts work together along with the OT quotations
6- Jesus words come from Psalm 22
7- Psalm 22 must be understood in the context of the crucifixion
8- Jesus last words were this " Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit "
9- Psalm 22 has numerous fulfillment's during His Crucifixion
10- Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him etc......
11- Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help
12- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus trust and relationship with the Father saying into your hands I commit MY Spirit

God is LOVE. In Love the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

We must understand how Gods attributes all work in harmony together not in opposition to each other. All of Gods attributes and His character flow from His Love for God is Love.

God being Love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is Love and that Love is perfect lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love by definition has to be expressed with another which is why a unitarian god cannot be Love. Love requires another to share and express that Love and it’s what we see with the Triune God. God is Love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation there was no sin hence no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, justice etc................. Why because those are Gods secondary attributes. God’s Love is a primary attribute like Holy is a primary. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes.

All doctrine begins with God at its starting point.

We can see the entire Psalm 22 which is Messianic was being played out before their very eyes and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22 being lived out before them. It’s a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, Gods One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. And let’s not forget Jesus promise to the sinner- TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. You see The Trinity was never fractured, broken or severed for even a moment but together the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning.

God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.

God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor in the ECF's. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc…….as if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

Jesus bearing Gods wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is nothing but an urban legend not found in scripture.

The following scriptures affirm Jesus relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Hey Newbie, I really liked your post and agree with it. Based on your picture, you are obviously fishing on the right side of the boat. Keep it up and thanks for the input.

James Honigman · Apr 7, 2020

1213 said:
I agree that God didn’t forsake Jesus, because God raised Jesus from the death. However, Jesus tells that God lives in him. It is possible that when he was dying, he felt God was not anymore there.

Hi 1213. I must disagree, for I believe that everything that was done at His crucifixion was for us, not for Themselves. Our Father and our Lord never disagreed with each other. As our Beloved told us, "I and My Father are One." Thanks for your comments.

James Honigman · Apr 7, 2020

fewme said:
It might be a wee impolite to enter a forum by replying on a post, but your post lured me to join this forum. Very well said .

Thanks for the kind words, fewme. You keep hikin, and I'll keep fishin!

fewme · Apr 7, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
Noticing a big non-response to me post on this...read Isaiah 53...makes clear just how much Christ had to suffer in His soul.
If one follows the logic of the OP one would easily also be led to conclude Christ did not have to die for us.
We experienced spiritual separation from God when Adam and Eve brought sin into the world...led OUT of the Garden. But, Christ...according to Romans 5:18-19 Jesus reversed the curse...
Romans 5:18-19:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Therefore the separation from God that Christ felt and cried out for was both real and necessary to be that fully acceptable sin offering for mankind.

For God to come into this world was suffering enough, for him to have to endure the apostles, you and me, the fleas and ticks of Judea, months of preaching with little gratitude, suffering those who'd like to snare him, being sent to a puny king and a Roman overseer, being judged, condemned, scourged, ridiculed, placed naked before the crowd, and nail to a Cross to die slowly and painfully is suffering in my book.

fewme · Apr 7, 2020

James Honigman said:
Thanks for the kind words, fewme. You keep hikin, and I'll keep fishin!

I'm actually more into kayaking, but it overlaps at times

Ivan Hlavanda · Apr 7, 2020

childeye 2 said:
Here is a cup which I believe those who follow Jesus will drink from:

Matthew 20:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

And below I notice that this cup of judgment has mixture wherein only the wicked drink the dregs of it.

7 But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
8 For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

Yes that is the cup His followers will drink from, the cup of salvation, but Jesus did not drink from that cup, He drank from the cup of God's wrath. God had to pour the cup of wrath of Jesus so we can be made righteous in His name. If Jesus didn't He wouldn't take the punishment for us.
Yes, when the judgement day will come, the sinners that not believed in the name of the only Son of God will drink from the cup of wrath as well. Then why did Jesus have to drink from it? Because if any sinner drank from it, the sinner could not make anyone righteous. And that's what the whole thing was, that the righteous one had to bear our sins and the ultimate punishment.

Why else would Jesus prat like this? "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Why would Jesus ask for that of that was the cup of salvation and not the cup of wrath?

It is very important to understand what happened in the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus (the second Adam) put Himself in total obedience to God, even with all the agony and pain He was going through, in the times of total weakness He did obey the Father in everything, where as Adam disobeyed God in garden of Eden and thus ruined everything. Jesus by complete obedience to the Father fixed everything that Adam ruined.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 7, 2020

fewme said:
For God to come into this world was suffering enough, for him to have to endure the apostles, you and me, the fleas and ticks of Judea, months of preaching with little gratitude, suffering those who'd like to snare him, being sent to a puny king and a Roman overseer, being judged, condemned, scourged, ridiculed, placed naked before the crowd, and nail to a Cross to die slowly and painfully is suffering in my book.

My post did not claim that Christ did not suffer a lot already, but rather my point is that He had to reverse the curse...pretty clear that Adam and Eve died spiritually upon committing the first sin.

friend of · Apr 7, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
Therefore the separation from God that Christ felt and cried out for was both real and necessary to be that fully acceptable sin offering for mankind.

Agreed. He had to experience the fullness of God's wrath, and in order for that to happen, God needed to turn His face from the Son of Man.

Ivan Hlavanda · Apr 7, 2020

bling said:
All I have read (I do not know ancient Hebrew) have said: “lama sabachthani” (λεμα σαβαχθανι)? Is an interesting , these words are used in both Aramaic and Mishnaic Hebrew (the Hebrew used at the time of Yeshua).

It is only the Eli that is Aramaic in Mark and Eloi which is Hebrew, but that brings up the question "why the difference?"

I have explained the reason for the Hebrew in my post 31 which I hope you might read, but did not go into the alternative answered for the differences.

It looks bad for the Bible being protected and preserved by the Holy Spirit if Mark or Matthew messed up or intentionally tried to interject their own words. The most likely alternative I see is for Christ to say it twice: once in Hebrew (probably first) and a second time in Aramaic, but then why say it in Aramaic?

The Hebrew would be addressing the Religious leaders who knew Hebrew and would realize Christ was addressing them specifically, directing them to Psalms 22.

If secular history is true, most young Hebrew boys in the first century would have all the psalms memorized (it is really not that hard to do if you are use to memorizing the poetry of the day and they had no recording device or even paper was expensive, but they might not know it in Hebrew (the language of the religious rulers) or even Greek. That leaves the common first century Jerusalem language of Aramaic. So, who is the audience for this Aramaic quoting of the first verse of Psalms 22?

The Roman soldiers did not know Aramaic, the Jewish religious leaders know the Hebrew, but what about that thief?

It says just before Jesus quotes Psalms 22: Matt 27: 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him. They are repeating the words of the religious leaders right in their with them, yet minutes later one thief will say: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” What could possible change that thief’s mind in minutes other than realizing Psalms 22 is talking about the man being crucified with him?
out of time

I am not 100% sure if I fully understand what are you trying to ask here. But I do believe my answer will be satisfactory to you. So please ask if I do miss something, or you are not satisfied with the answer/I'm missing your point.

Why God and not Father? Jesus on the cross was crying out in anguish because of the separation He was then experiencing from His heavenly Father for the first and only time in all of eternity. It is the only time of which we have record that Jesus did not address God as Father. Because the Son had taken sin upon Himself, the Father turned His back. In some way and by some means, in the secrets of divine sovereignty and omnipotence, the God-Man was separated from God for a brief time at Calvary, as the furious wrath of the Father was poured out on the sinless Son, who in matchless grace became sin for those who believe in Him. How was it possible to God to be separated from God is beyond human intellect and thus I will only reply with everything; is possible upon God. That's the best I've got.

You did brought up a good point. That there is lots of meaning that has been lost in translation. Example the word 'peace' nowhere near covers the word 'shalom'. Thus there is the point you make about what “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” truly mean. See that's the problem we have to look things up sometimes and even when we have good Christian sources they can give two different answers. So I looked it up once again and Matthew uses out the Hebrew form which is Eli and Mark Aramic form which is Eloi. And thus if that's the case, is anything wrong with that? Is there anything wrong with one using 'Eli' and 'Eloi' if it has the same meaning? (I know that wasn't what I said before, it took me some research to do to find this explanation). Jesus died as a substitute sacrifice for the sins of the world, the righteous heavenly Father had to judge Him fully according to that sin. Why did then that be written in Aramic when Jesus shouted in Hebrew? Is that's what you are asking? Maybe Jesus said it in Hebrew and it was written in Aramic?

Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth."
Luke says (in 23:39), that one of them did it, and that the other reproved him and was penitent. The account in Luke may, however, easily be reconciled with that in Matthew by supposing that "at first both" of them reviled the Savior, and that it is of this fact that Matthew speaks.

Afterward one of them relented and became penitent perhaps from witnessing the patient sufferings of Christ. It is of this one particularly that Luke speaks.

Jesus is YHWH · Apr 7, 2020

friend of said:
Agreed. He had to experience the fullness of God's wrath, and in order for that to happen, God needed to turn His face from the Son of Man.

And where does the bible ever say "Jesus had to experience the fullness of Gods wrath ?

And where does the bible ever say " God needed to turn His face from the Son of man"

friend of · Apr 7, 2020

Did He or did He not experience the full weight of sin on calvary?

childeye 2 · Apr 7, 2020

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes that is the cup His followers will drink from, the cup of salvation, but Jesus did not drink from that cup, He drank from the cup of God's wrath. God had to pour the cup of wrath of Jesus so we can be made righteous in His name. If Jesus didn't He wouldn't take the punishment for us.

Clearly Christ said these disciples would drink from the same cup as him. It wasn't a cup of God's wrath.

Yes, when the judgement day will come, the sinners that not believed in the name of the only Son of God will drink from the cup of wrath as well. Then why did Jesus have to drink from it? Because if any sinner drank from it, the sinner could not make anyone righteous. And that's what the whole thing was, that the righteous one had to bear our sins and the ultimate punishment.

I don't believe that Christ ever drank from the cup of God's wrath. I would agree however that he alone who was without sin was the only one who could deliver the sinner from death according to the requirement of the law.

Why else would Jesus prat like this? "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Why would Jesus ask for that of that was the cup of salvation and not the cup of wrath?

I think it's understandable that awaiting his crucifixion, Jesus had his moment of weakness about whether he could go through with it. Some Christians were fed to lions in the arena in Rome, and some were stoned to death. It is said that Peter was crucified upside down. All were persecuted by servants of the god of this world. There's no doubt that it took courage to be a Christian in the early Church. This clearly is not the cup of God's wrath that killed Jesus and his apostles for preaching the Gospel.

As I said before, I would never teach my children, that god was so violent and vindictive in character, that god wanted to strip them naked, and publicly beat them and scorn them, and mock them and scourge them, and nail them to a cross to watch them die a slow and agonizing death, but Jesus took it instead.
It would only serve to undermine the greatest commandment to love God with all your heart mind and soul.

childeye 2 · Apr 7, 2020

friend of said:
Did He or did He not experience the full weight of sin on calvary?

Scripture says that Jesus was without sin, which is why only his blood according to the legal requirement of the law could atone for sin. There was no other sinless person I am aware of.

Ivan Hlavanda · Apr 8, 2020

childeye 2 said:
I think it's understandable that awaiting his crucifixion, Jesus had his moment of weakness about whether he could go through with it. Some Christians were fed to lions in the arena in Rome, and some were stoned to death. It is said that Peter was crucified upside down. All were persecuted by servants of the god of this world. There's no doubt that it took courage to be a Christian in the early Church. This clearly is not the cup of God's wrath that killed Jesus and his apostles for preaching the Gospel.

As I said before, I would never teach my children, that god was so violent and vindictive in character, that god wanted to strip them naked, and publicly beat them and scorn them, and mock them and scourge them, and nail them to a cross to watch them die a slow and agonizing death, but Jesus took it instead.
It would only serve to undermine the greatest commandment to love God with all your heart mind and soul.

But the beatings, mocking etc. weren't the wrath of God, but a rejection of Israelites of Jesus. No the wrath of God was poured on Jesus on the cross, when the separation of the Father God and Son God happened. That is the ultimate punishment for sinners, that God separates them from Himself, and that is the punishment Jesus had to take for us.

That's why Jesus cries ' my God, my God why have you abandoned me?' Jesus on the cross was crying out in anguish because of the separation He was then experiencing from His heavenly Father for the first and only time in all of eternity. It is the only time of which we have record that Jesus did not address God as Father. Because the Son had taken sin upon Himself, the Father turned His back. That's what was supposed to happen to all us sinners, but that's what Jesus took upon Himself.

We cannot begin to fathom all that this would mean between the Father and the Son. To be forsaken by God is the cry of the damned, and he was damned for us. So he used these words because there was a real forsakenness. That is the first reason.

Second, the why, it seems to me, is not a question looking for an answer, but a way of expressing the horrors of abandonment. I have a couple of reasons for thinking this.

“The judgment was to have God the Father pour out his wrath, and instead of pouring it out on us, he pours it out on his Son.”
John 18:4). He gave himself up. So he knew. He knew it was coming. He knew everything.

Another reason is the moment was one of agony, not theological curiosity. The moment was one of agony.

And lastly, we must all remember that Jesus was in full control of the situation on the cross.

I hope this explains my reasoning why God Father poured His wrath on Jesus and what it was.

DID GOD FORSAKE HIS SON?

my Lord and my God !

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