Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Strong in Him · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Don't you think that those who might hate God now would feel differently about him if they actually met him?

No doubt, but it will be too late by then.
Anyone would believe in God if they saw him face to face. Scripture says that we walk by faith, not by sight, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Scripture teaches us that God values faith; people who trust and love God even though they can't see him. Jesus said, "you believe because you have see me, blessed are those who have not seen and still believe", John 20:29.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
No doubt, but it will be too late by then.
Anyone would believe in God if they saw him face to face. Scripture says that we walk by faith, not by sight, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Scripture teaches us that God values faith; people who trust and love God even though they can't see him. Jesus said, "you believe because you have see me, blessed are those who have not seen and still believe", John 20:29.

Why will it be too late by then? There are many who are perishing cause they've been blinded to the Gospel by the devil (1 Cor 4:3). They're the lost who most need Jesus. The true Jesus who is absolutely trustworthy, as opposed to the conditional 'love me or burn forever' version who is inherently untrustworthy.

Faith comes through hearing, and it's the faith OF Christ that saves us, not of ourselves, so we can't boast. He showed us what true faith is, and God invites us into that space, He has reconciled the world to Him and justified all by the blood of Christ. We just need to accept that perfect truth, the foolishness of God, as it were. That's the good news, plain and simple.

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
No doubt, but it will be too late by then.
Anyone would believe in God if they saw him face to face. Scripture says that we walk by faith, not by sight, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Scripture teaches us that God values faith; people who trust and love God even though they can't see him. Jesus said, "you believe because you have see me, blessed are those who have not seen and still believe", John 20:29.

I agree for the most part with your explanation but not your conclusion.
The claim of most is that hell will be full of God-haters. Thus inferring that eternal torment is justified. When questioned about who will be in heaven, they define a very narrow section of humanity. If we then take account of who falls outside of that narrow section we find the majority of those to not be God-haters. So much for the justification of eternal torment.

You and I agree that; "Anyone would believe in God if they saw him face to face."
Well, will we not all face judgment? And in doing so see God face to face? Seems so. But to be fair, your point was that it will be too late. That those in the realm of the dead will not have the opportunity to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Well, I have good news. They can and will. See scripture below. Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus Christ is Lord. Even "under the earth" in the realm of the dead. (the afterlife) So much for too late. Ill-advised to wait, but not too late. Grace wins in the end.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Contenders Edge · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
How is forever burning hell with no hope of escape fair by any stretch of the imagination?

The greatest penalty imposed by humankind is life imprisonment or the death penalty.
Both seem humane compared to a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
If a human was confined to hell for 100 years (unimaginable) would that not be enough?
What sin would be equal to a punishment like that?

My proposal above (100 years) is child's-play compared to eternity in hell. (unimaginable)

Just to be clear, I agree that God's system of justice is perfect. But it has nothing to do with a forever burning hell with no hope of escape. Nothing just about that.

When you question Hell, you are questioning the fairness of God's justice system. What would be unfair would be to allow unrepentant sinners into Heaven to dwell alongside the righteous who placed their faith in Christ to be there. And what would make it unfair is that by allowing those who died in their sins into Heaven, the righteous would be made to bear with their wickedness.

Contenders Edge · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Why do you add the caveat of sincerity? AGAIN... how is that measured?
Were you sincere enough to be saved? Or do you need to wait until judgment day to find out if you will be thrown in a forever burning hell, because you could have been more sincere. ??? Too bad, you were so close. Oh well, fair's fair, right?

As I said, only God knows if each profession of faith is sincere; Him and those making a profession of faith.

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Why will it be too late by then? There are many who are perishing cause they've been blinded to the Gospel by the devil (1 Cor 4:3). They're the lost who most need Jesus. The true Jesus who is absolutely trustworthy, as opposed to the conditional 'love me or burn forever' version who is inherently untrustworthy.

Your post reminded me of this scripture.
Which says "God sends them a powerful delusion". It seems that sin and evil are the waters upon which the ark of grace floats. And sometimes even God himself fuels the flood of evil. (with grace as the end goal)

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Contenders Edge · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that we see the pre-rebellion Satan in the book of Job. That seems laughable.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That depends on what you mean by "dwell".
In the book of Job we see Satan standing before the throne of God having a casual conversation. Seems it was allowed. And who is more sinful than Satan?

I never said that we saw the pre-rebellion Satan in the book of Job. No one is making that argument, but Satan, while still being allowed to approach the throne of God, no longer holds the position that he used to before the throne. And the day is coming when he will no longer have access to Heaven at all. (Rev. 12)

Shrewd Manager · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
sin and evil are the waters upon which the ark of grace floats

That's awesome. A little poetic licence, perhaps.

Saint Steven said:
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Yes, this is an age of universal deceit, so the time would be propitious for the strong delusion. And I think I can see it, by the grace of God. Ppl don't want to consider anything but the rubbish from 'official channels', be it religious or secular. It's as though their minds have been locked down.

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
When you question Hell, you are questioning the fairness of God's justice system. What would be unfair would be to allow unrepentant sinners into Heaven to dwell alongside the righteous who placed their faith in Christ to be there. And what would make it unfair is that by allowing those who died in their sins into Heaven, the righteous would be made to bear with their wickedness.

Seriously?
How many times have I agreed that "unrepentant sinners" will not be allowed into heaven?

No. When I question hell, I am questioning the slander of accusing our loving heavenly Father of atrocities that make the entire sin load of humanity pale by comparison. No human is even capable of such atrocity. Yet Damnationists shrug it off as if it is nothing. Asking why we dare question God. Or claiming we are refusing the truth about him.

Many agnostics rightly say that they cannot believe in a God that would do such things. I'll have to agree with them on that point. Where did we find that angry volcano god anyway?

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
As I said, only God knows if each profession of faith is sincere; Him and those making a profession of faith.

Are you claiming to have no assurance of salvation? You will wait to see? And if you are wrong it will be too late? And if too late, what will that mean? (you're toast?)

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
I never said that we saw the pre-rebellion Satan in the book of Job. No one is making that argument, but Satan, while still being allowed to approach the throne of God, no longer holds the position that he used to before the throne. And the day is coming when he will no longer have access to Heaven at all. (Rev. 12)

But weren't you claiming that nothing sinful is allowed in heaven?

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
That's awesome. A little poetic licence, perhaps.

Yes, I even surprised myself with that little gem. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
sin and evil are the waters upon which the ark of grace floats

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Yes, I even surprised myself with that little gem. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
sin and evil are the waters upon which the ark of grace floats

No need for an ark of salvation without a threatening flood. A symbiotic relationship.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
No need for an ark of salvation without a threatening flood. A symbiotic relationship.

Now we're getting into theodicy, why God lets evil hang around, so that He might be glorified in delivering the ark out of the flood, life from death, sweet honey from a dead lion etc. Praise the Lord!

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Now we're getting into theodicy, why God lets evil hang around, so that He might be glorified in delivering the ark out of the flood, life from death, sweet honey from a dead lion etc. Praise the Lord!

That's a relief...
I thought I was off on The-odd-acy. - lol

Strong in Him · Mar 24, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Why will it be too late by then?

There is nothing in Scripture which says, "you can repent/believe and be saved after death".
If everyone was saved, Jesus and the apostles would not have told people to repent before it was too late.

Strong in Him · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You and I agree that; "Anyone would believe in God if they saw him face to face."
Well, will we not all face judgment? And in doing so see God face to face? Seems so. But to be fair, your point was that it will be too late. That those in the realm of the dead will not have the opportunity to acknowledge Jesus as Lord.

What I meant was that if a non Christian/atheist - someone who has denied God all their lives - dies, and meets with God, it will be too late then to say "oh you DO exist; ok then, I'll believe everything I denied while I was on earth."

FineLinen · Mar 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
There is nothing in Scripture which says, "you can repent/believe and be saved after death".
If everyone was saved, Jesus and the apostles would not have told people to repent before it was too late.

Dear Strong: Never ever limit the God who is the God of the impossible!

Repentance flows from our Abba and is granted by Him. In short absolutely the all is centered in Him from beginning to ending. We love Him because He first loved us & continues to love us.

Not only does He love us, the especially of His grace, He loves every lost & broken sinner of Adam1 & cherishes within Himself to bring every last one home to Himself in the fullness of times or whenever it suits Him.

Der Alte · Mar 24, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Now we're getting into theodicy, why God lets evil hang around, so that He might be glorified in delivering the ark out of the flood, life from death, sweet honey from a dead lion etc. Praise the Lord!

Did any of this happen after the people died?

Der Alte · Mar 24, 2020

Strong in Him said:
There is nothing in Scripture which says, "you can repent/believe and be saved after death".
If everyone was saved, Jesus and the apostles would not have told people to repent before it was too late.

In fact Jesus and others say exactly the opposite.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Great is thy faithfulness

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

You can call me Steve

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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