Forgiveness must come from the victim

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus cannot forgive people for their sins against other people, but he can set an example of forgiveness.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

grasping the after wind · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

Why do you think God will punish someone that sinned against you if you refuse to forgive that person?

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
Why do you think God will punish someone that sinned against you if you refuse to forgive that person?

Because forgiveness must come from me, the victim.

grasping the after wind · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Because forgiveness must come from me, the victim.

Then wouldn't any punishment also be your responsibility and not God's?

Carl Emerson · Mar 23, 2020

Firstly some victims will not forgive.

Secondly Jesus took the punishment instead of the sinner. It is then unjust if you are looking for revenge. By doing that however you place yourself above God who has forgiven.

There are however consequences the sinner faces related to their sin.

It is so easy to presume to tell God how things should work and to forget that we are but dust.

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
Then wouldn't any punishment also be your responsibility and not God's?

Not in a system of law and order. The government punishes crimes.

splish- splash · Mar 23, 2020

If I sin against you today and repent tomorrow, the Lord will forgive me and move on without your approval.

Unfortunately we might still have to suffer the consequences of our actions, for instance if someone raided a bank and stole millions of cash but were caught even when they'd repented, they'd still have to do time in prison unless The Lord intervened.

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Firstly some victims will not forgive.

Secondly Jesus took the punishment instead of the sinner. It is then unjust if you are looking for revenge. By doing that however you place yourself above God who had forgive,

There are however consequences the sinner faces related to their sin.

It is so easy to presume to tell God how things should work and to forget that we are but dust.

Doesn't the Bible say "every knee shall bow to Jesus" (paraphrasing)? Part of that would be to fully appreciate the example of forgiveness given by Jesus, and that forgiveness would be contagious.

grasping the after wind · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Not in a system of law and order. The government punishes crimes.

Then why did you not say the government will punish him appropriately instead of saying God will punish him appropriately?

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

At Your Footstool said:
If I sin against you today and repent tomorrow, the Lord will forgive me and move on without your approval.

Unfortunately we might still have to suffer the consequences of our actions, for instance if someone raided a bank and stole millions of cash but were caught even when they'd repented, they'd still have to do time in prison unless The Lord intervened.

How is that different from a judge who forgives a wealthy murderer after some money is transferred into his reelection fund? How is the victim satisfied in that scenario?

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
Then why did you not say the government will punish him appropriately instead of saying God will punish him appropriately?

Because God is the government of the universe. I am not saying that some human government will throw him in jail. I am saying that God must throw him in hell, because I refuse to forgive him.

grasping the after wind · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
How that any different from a judge who forgives a wealthy murderer after some money is transferred into his reelection fund? How is the victim satisfied in that scenario?

I would say it is very different as no one bribed God. In any event satisfyingly a victim is not the point of forgiveness.

grasping the after wind · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Because God is the government of the universe. I am not saying that some human government will throw him in jail. I am saying that God must throw him in hell, because I refuse to forgive him.

God doesn't have any musts. There is not a thing He must do.

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
I would say it is very different as no one bribed God. In e any event satisfyingly a victim is not the point of forgiveness.

Satisfying the victim is an important priority of justice. If the victim isn't satisfied then it is a miscarriage of justice.

So the victim of the sin must forgive the sinner. Jesus cannot do that. Jesus can only set the example.

splish- splash · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
How that any different from a judge who forgives a wealthy murderer after some money is transferred into his reelection fund? How is the victim satisfied in that scenario?

It all boils down to us knowing God. We are here for Him and not ourselves. This is why one has to learn to let go of grudges and allsorts of bitter feelings they may have.

grasping the after wind · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Satisfying the victim is an important priority of justice. If the victim isn't satisfied then it is a miscarriage of justice.

So the victim of the sin must forgive the sinner. Jesus cannot do that. Jesus can only set the example.

God seems to disagree. You were asking about a Christian perspective were you not? As a Christian, I would not attempt to give you the non Christian perspective but you seem unwilling to accept what I tell you is the Christian perspective here is one verse that might help you understand why the Christian perception differs from others.
Isaiah 55:8-9 8"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So your very normal human perspective that the victim must be satisfied is not the Christian perspective. God does what He pleases. Here is another example of Christ not agreeing with the normal human perspective on what is just.

Matt 20:1-16
20 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
God seems to disagree. You were asking about a Christian perspective were you not? As a Christian, I would not attempt to give you the non Christian perspective but you seem unwilling to accept what I tell you is the Christian perspective here is one verse that might help you understand why the Christian perception differs from others.
Isaiah 55:8-9 8"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So your very normal human perspective that the victim must be satisfied is not the Christian perspective. God does what He pleases. Here is another example of Christ not agreeing with the normal human perspective on what is just.

Matt 20:1-16
20 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

To me, the parable means that in the Kingdom of Heaven people will be paid simply because they need a paycheck rather than as an incentive or reward for work.

cloudyday2 · Mar 23, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
God seems to disagree. You were asking about a Christian perspective were you not? As a Christian, I would not attempt to give you the non Christian perspective but you seem unwilling to accept what I tell you is the Christian perspective

I agree that what you gave was a typical Christian perspective, but I am trying to show you why it doesn't work and how my idea fixes it.

GospelS · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus cannot forgive people for their sins against other people, but he can set an example of forgiveness.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

You are mixing physical world with spiritual world. Every sin is a rebellion against God. Jesus is about saving souls from God’s punishment (not necessarily the physical body from the earthly punishments).

In physical world: If a victim doesn’t forgive then the sinner would receive their due punishment as per the law to the satisfaction of the victim and the law of that country, even if they’ve accepted Jesus (unless God intervenes). This is a physical aspect of judgement.

Now after the sinner paid his/her punishment and suffered the consequences on the earth, they are still not good enough to be allowed into the kingdom of God. If the victim forgave or not, they will still be judged by the judge of the spiritual kingdom. And the same sinner will receive God’s forgiveness if they truly repented and accepted Jesus according to the God’s justice.

mkgal1 · Mar 23, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Not in a system of law and order. The government punishes crimes.

I've not read all the posts in this thread, but I see God as being a healer more than a judge. I especially can't accept that He is punitive in His setting things right. Seeing sin as an illness instead of a crime makes more sense to me.

Forgiveness must come from the victim

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