Is the Rapture biblical?

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
WHY does the "Day of the Lord" come as a thief in the night? Another verse tells us HE comes as a thief in the night. The truth is, the DAY comes because HE comes as Paul tells us in 1 thes. 5. He comes to catch up the saints - the rapture - which will be the trigger for the DAY.

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away

Keep in mind that the Day of the Lord is a long, extended period of time. It just may extend from the 6th seal to the new heaven and earth. But sometime in between the 6th seal and the new heaven and earth, the heavens will pass away. One verse says "no place was found for them." My point is, the "passing away" does not have to take place at the beginning of the day.

Everything you argue is colored by what you have been taught.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

These are “last days scoffers” not post-second coming millennial scoffers

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that has already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His Coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be caught unexpected when the judgment arrives suddenly. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole emphasis of this passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

Peter warns these “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s Coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

When Peter states, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness” (2 Peter 3:9) he was (1) speaking of Christ’s climactic Coming and (2) specifically responding to “the last days scoffers” mocking the promise of the Lord’s return (2 Peter 3:3-4). In fact, this statement is a direct response to the deluded taunt of these end-time fools, who mock: “Where is the promise of his coming?” None can surely ignore the fact that “the promise” is shown to be “his coming.” His promised return will assuredly occur. He then goes on to show how these foolish individuals will be finally and totally destroyed along with this current earth (and the elements and the immediate heavens) when Jesus unexpectedly returns.

After outlining the terror of Christ’s Coming for the wicked, Peter then turns to the believer and presents the great contrasting hope that the righteous have, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13).

The whole thrust of this narrative revolves around the legitimacy of “the promise of his coming” and the wide contrast in the fate of the believer compared to that of the unbeliever. The writer shows the dual aspect of the Coming. He shows how it spells judgment and ruin for the wicked but blessing and relief for the righteous. Whilst this day will bring terror to the Christ-rejecter it will usher in eternal righteousness upon the new earth for the redeemed. It is not talking about a perfect state that comes 1,000 years after His return as some suggest. The appearance of the new heavens and new earth are here linked here with the “promise” of His return.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
Under the New Covenant, people are born again and have the Holy Spirit inside the human spirit with a NEW human spirit. None in the Old Testament had this privilege. Under the Old Covenant, they had to overcome by sheer will power.

How can you say this?

Dispensationalists are loud and bold in their opinion that the Old Testament saints were not born of the Spirit as we are or that they possess the constant ongoing presence of the Spirit of God dwelling inside them. But does anyone seriously think that fallen man before the cross had any ability to save himself, be redeemed and be enlightened outside of the enabling power of the Holy Spirit? Did he possess any innate natural tendencies toward God? Of course not! 1 Corinthians 2:14 outlines an important truth about man, that transcends the eons of time: “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

No objective Bible student could surely seriously argue that the Old Testament saints had some innate ability to come to God without the enlightening and enabling power of the Spirit of God. We have seen, what debilitates man in the New Testament, also ruined him in the Old Testament. Outside of the work of the Holy Spirit, man is a spiritual mess – regardless of his birthday.

If the old covenant saints were not indwelt by the Spirit, how were they capable of exercising saving faith and living faithful lives? Scripture shows that the absence of the Holy Spirit is tantamount to being an unbeliever.

The reality is: Dispensationalists attribute spiritual abilities to Old Testament saints that New Testament believers were completely devoid of – namely, the capability to believe and please God without the internal presence and power of the Holy Spirit. We are talking about believers overcoming the flesh for thousands of years by fleshly means. We are talking about holy living without the aid of the Holy Spirit. What is more, if God’s people in the Old Testament did not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost how were they sanctified? Moreover, without the power of the Spirit of God, how could a child of God believe, repent, and obey? This is all biblically impossible!

If one is to deny the existence of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that accompanies salvation and also the indwelling presence of the Spirit that enables a believer to satisfactorily respond to God, please Him and live a holy lifestyle, in the old covenant era, then you surely put a question mark over the gravity and veracity of the depravity of the saints in the old economy. You are basically saying that the Old Testament saints were not as depraved as the New Testament saints are. As a result, you attribute qualities and abilities to the Old Testament believers that Scriptures knows nothing about.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
Why are you always looking for one clear scripture? If there was one clear scripture, we would all agree on these things. We must form doctrine from what God gave us. Have you noticed yet that John saw the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) in chapter 7, between the 6th and 7th seal, proving they are before the 70th week or trib?

Because we take our beliefs from the Bible, not what we have been taught.

Davy · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
This is in a posttribber's dream world. It is not real. Jesus was talking to Jews about the end of THEIR age: that is the 70th week of Daniel that will finish out their age. This is proven when He mentions the abomination that will divide the future week.

Those ideas are from men, and not from God's Word. The reason why I can say what I did with the many other Scripture evidences, is because they are there. But what you say, you cannot back up from God's Word, you can only make things up.

Davy · Mar 21, 2020

safswan said:
You are correct for the most part except for the comment about Daniel in my humble understanding.A fuller study on Matthew 24 will elaborate.The aim of the post was to show that Jesus was actually addressing His Church whom He referred to as,YOU,in contrast to unbelieving Israel whom He referred to as,THEY.This exposes the lie that the gathering in the passage is a gathering of Israel and not the Church as it clearly is.

Christ's quote from Daniel 11:31 is specifically about the same kind of thing Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. Jerusalem. The Antichrist doesn't have to follow that old blueprint of Antiochus exactly, but will follow the very Daniel 11:31 Scripture as written, because Lord Jesus quoted it.

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

That means of course, another built temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world, for Antichrist to fulfill that. It means the Jews in Jerusalem starting up old covenant sacrifices and worship again.

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Lol. Really? Why then do you ignore post after post, argument after argument, and Scripture after Scripture? It is because you don’t have any proof texts for your theological theory.

I ask the objective reader to read through this thread and see how many questions have been avoided, how many scriptures have been avoided and how many arguments have been avoided by Islamabad. The avoidance is telling!

It is because you don’t have any proof texts for your theological theory. No, its because I have heard all these arguments before and not they won't stand up under good bible exegesis. I know my proof texts, such as Revelation chapters 6 & 7 and Paul in 1st and 2nd thes.

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

Non-profit Prophet said:
Will you also overlook the examples I provided of Christian synagogues mentioned in the NT?

I have yet to find one in scripture.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
It is because you don’t have any proof texts for your theological theory. No, its because I have heard all these arguments before and not they won't stand up under good bible exegesis. I know my proof texts, such as Revelation chapters 6 & 7 and Paul in 1st and 2nd thes.

Please address the above texts (and the attached commentary) i have posted that forbid Pretrib, and stop avoiding the obvious. All i am getting from you is opinion. These evasive fly-by postings do not cut it.

Douggg · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Dispensationalists are loud and bold in their opinion that the Old Testament saints were not born of the Spirit as we are or that they possess the constant ongoing presence of the Spirit of God dwelling inside them. But does anyone seriously think that fallen man before the cross had any ability to save himself, be redeemed and be enlightened outside of the enabling power of the Holy Spirit?

Before the cross, and resurrection:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

After the cross and resurrection:

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

It isn't until a person believes upon Jesus as their Savior, that they (their soul) are born again, in spirit, by the power of the Holy Ghost who dwells with them forever. Since the body has yet to be redeemed, it is within the saved person's soul is wherein the Holy Ghost abides in the believer in Jesus.

When a saved person dies (their physical body), the soul, the Holy Ghost present within, continues to heaven.

There are basically three levels to life.

the unsaved person
the physical body
the soul
the spirit

the saved person in Christ
the physical body
the soul
the spirit, the Holy Spirit

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I don't honestly think anyone here is going to seriously take lectures from someone who promotes a doctrine that has zero proof-texts in the whole of the Bible, never mind, trying to lecture us on how we interpret the book of Revelation. You apply your paradigm to the book of Revelation, yet you have not one single proof text to support a Pretrib rapture.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognize, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

You apply your paradigm to the book of Revelation, yet you have not one single proof text to support a Pretrib rapture.
There are certainly better proof texts for pretrib than for posttrib. My theory requires no rearranging of Revelation at all. Yours requires rearranging to make it fit. Therefore it will be proven wrong.

if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life.
No, I just read a different translation. This cannot be the end of time or the end of the existance of time. Why? Because John mentions time again and again after this.

ASV
and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:
AMP
and swore [an oath] by [the name of] Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer,
CSB
He swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will no longer be a delay

This must be the right translation, because "time" continues on for the 5 parallel paths or countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end: some given in days and some in months. These are "time" words. It is clear then that posttrib foolishly ignores the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject, and does poor exegesis of end time verses.

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. Not at all. We know the intent of the Author, not what someone thought they heard someone else teach, so they copied it.

the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). There is time after the end of this church: the 70th week. There is time after the 70th week ends the Jewish age: the 1000 year reign of Christ. Perhaps then, when God creates a new heaven and new earth, time as we know it will cease to exist.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
This was not some arbitrary event. It was written inside the book with seven seals - probably the lease document of Earth. If no one had been found worthy to open the seals, this event could not and would not have come to pass.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Not at all. Now that Jesus has His planet back, He can finish up judgment (the vials), destroy this world and create a new one. Remember, before the 7th angel will sound, Satat is still the god of this world. His reign ENDS here. That is why in chapter 12 he is cast down.

the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet More myth. The last trumpet end up the church age pretrib - pre-70th week. This is the last trump of THIS SERIES, but it is called the 7th trump.

the final trumpet sound for all mankind. This is a bold statement: Is God going to send angels to collect all trumpets, then take the memory away of how to make trumpets? Chances are very great that there will be trumpets in the Millennium.

and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” No, not true. He WILL reign for the 1000 years, but He also reigns forever. Why don't you believe Rev. 20?

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’.
Is 1260 days TIME?
Is 42 months TIME?
Is 3.5 years TIME?
Is 1000 years TIME?
Of course the right translation is "no more delay. God had to delay some judgment because before the 7th trumpet Satan was the god of this world. But after the 7th trumpet, NO MORE DELAY: the end of the age will come swiftly. I understand, someone that feels free to rearrange Revelation can make it say almost anything but the Author's intent. By the way, all are correct translations; the difference is in the Greek texts.

Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, This slamming of translators is uncalled for. Have YOU translated the entire New testament or entire bible?

Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory.
My only comment is, John then USED timing words after this.

Sorry, but the 7th trumpet is at the MIDPOINT.
Notice the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end:
42 months of trampling; 11:2
1260 days of witnessing; 11:3
!260 days of fleeing; 12:6
3.5 years; chapter 12
42 months of authority; chapter 13

These prove conclusively that the middle of the week is found in one of these chapters. Therefore you theory is faulty.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
You apply your paradigm to the book of Revelation, yet you have not one single proof text to support a Pretrib rapture.
There are certainly better proof texts for pretrib than for posttrib. My theory requires no rearranging of Revelation at all. Yours requires rearranging to make it fit. Therefore it will be proven wrong.

if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life.
No, I just read a different translation. This cannot be the end of time or the end of the existance of time. Why? Because John mentions time again and again after this.

ASV
and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:
AMP
and swore [an oath] by [the name of] Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer,
CSB
He swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will no longer be a delay

This must be the right translation, because "time" continues on for the 5 parallel paths or countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end: some given in days and some in months. These are "time" words. It is clear then that posttrib foolishly ignores the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject, and does poor exegesis of end time verses.

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. Not at all. We know the intent of the Author, not what someone thought they heard someone else teach, so they copied it.

the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). There is time after the end of this church: the 70th week. There is time after the 70th week ends the Jewish age: the 1000 year reign of Christ. Perhaps then, when God creates a new heaven and new earth, time as we know it will cease to exist.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
This was not some arbitrary event. It was written inside the book with seven seals - probably the lease document of Earth. If no one had been found worthy to open the seals, this event could not and would not have come to pass.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Not at all. Now that Jesus has His planet back, He can finish up judgment (the vials), destroy this world and create a new one. Remember, before the 7th angel will sound, Satat is still the god of this world. His reign ENDS here. That is why in chapter 12 he is cast down.

the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet More myth. The last trumpet end up the church age pretrib - pre-70th week. This is the last trump of THIS SERIES, but it is called the 7th trump.

the final trumpet sound for all mankind. This is a bold statement: Is God going to send angels to collect all trumpets, then take the memory away of how to make trumpets? Chances are very great that there will be trumpets in the Millennium.

and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” No, not true. He WILL reign for the 1000 years, but He also reigns forever. Why don't you believe Rev. 20?

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’.
Is 1260 days TIME?
Is 42 months TIME?
Is 3.5 years TIME?
Is 1000 years TIME?
Of course the right translation is "no more delay. God had to delay some judgment because before the 7th trumpet Satan was the god of this world. But after the 7th trumpet, NO MORE DELAY: the end of the age will come swiftly. I understand, someone that feels free to rearrange Revelation can make it say almost anything but the Author's intent. By the way, all are correct translations; the difference is in the Greek texts.

Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, This slamming of translators is uncalled for. Have YOU translated the entire New testament or entire bible?

Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory.
My only comment is, John then USED timing words after this.

Sorry, but the 7th trumpet is at the MIDPOINT.
Notice the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end:
42 months of trampling; 11:2
1260 days of witnessing; 11:3
!260 days of fleeing; 12:6
3.5 years; chapter 12
42 months of authority; chapter 13

These prove conclusively that the middle of the week is found in one of these chapters. Therefore you theory is faulty.

You gerrymander Scripture and original words to fit your Pretrib error.

The King James Version New Testament Greek Lexicon is based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary. It succinctly defines chronos as: time either long or short. Time is the realm of seconds, minutes, days and years. It refers to the space we inhabit. Eternity is not governed by a calendar or a watch.

There are 52 mentions of the word chronos in Scripture and in not one instance does it make sense or does it fit to interpret this Greek word as “delay.” In fact, to interpret it as such will actually put the opposite meaning on the passage than that which is meant to be conveyed.

Let us start with its first mention in the new Testament in Matt 2:7: “Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.”

The Premil version reads: “Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what delay the star appeared.”

What about a few famous passages in Scripture. The inspired text reads in

John 7:33: “Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.”

The Premil version reads: “Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little delay am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.”

Premil butchers the original meaning and makes it say the opposite to what it reads.

Acts 1:-6-7 employs the Greek word twice: “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he (Jesus) said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”

The Premil version reads: “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this delay restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the delays or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”

The sacred text says in Acts 7:17: “when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt.”

The Premil version reads: “when the delay of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt.”

Revelation 20:3 states: “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The Premil version reads: “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little delay”

Premils would have us change the truth being conveyed in numerous passages to actually say the opposite by changing the meaning of the Greek word. This shows you the error of the position and the danger of eisegesis. There is so much doctoring of the inspired text that is required to make Premil fit that even the most ardent of Premils must blush at this one.

A thorough examination of the usage of the word finds that it is right here to interpret chronos as time. The King James Version translations are:

‘time’ 32 references,
‘season’ 4 references,
‘a while’ 4 references,
‘long as’ 4 references,
‘began’ 3 references,
‘space’ 2 references.
‘oftentimes’ 1 reference,
‘ago’ 1 reference,
‘old’ 1 reference,

Significantly, whichever one of these English words that one prefers, we assuredly know, it shall be “no more” at the one final future all-consummating Second Advent.

As for the Premillennialist interpretation, we find:

‘delay’ 0 times.

The translating of chronos as ‘delay’ in this passage by some of the modern versions therefore is clearly unsustainable and is completely out of keeping with the meaning of the word, the context of Revelation 10:1-11 and the standard usage of the word in the rest of the New Testament. The King James Version is therefore correct in interpreting the word as “time” in this reading.

Significantly, the remainder of the NASB translation of the passage (which interprets the word “delay”) also declares, “when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished.” Therefore, the whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should beetelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong all-consummating word that is rightly translated “finished” in this reading and is consistently interpreted, and means, completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

This is the time when “that which is in part shall be done away,” when “that which is perfect is [finally] come” the time when we shall “know even as also” we are “known” (1 Corinthians 13:9-12).

What is more, and notably, the NASB Translation interprets chronos as “time” 30 times, “times” 5 times, “long” 5 times, “long ages” 2 times, “exact time” 1 time, “while” 5 times “period” 2 times, “age”1 time, “all” 1 time, “long” 1 time, and “delay” only 1 time. This is clearly a faulty interpretation designed by bias translators to justify the Premil doctrine.

Conclusion

Hello! There is no time in eternity. Once Jesus arrives the new glorified arrangement of the new heavens and new earth arrive. There is no need for watches, diaries and calendars.

This passage exposes Pretrib and Premil and supports the Amil position.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
You apply your paradigm to the book of Revelation, yet you have not one single proof text to support a Pretrib rapture.
There are certainly better proof texts for pretrib than for posttrib. My theory requires no rearranging of Revelation at all. Yours requires rearranging to make it fit. Therefore it will be proven wrong.

if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life.
No, I just read a different translation. This cannot be the end of time or the end of the existance of time. Why? Because John mentions time again and again after this.

ASV
and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:
AMP
and swore [an oath] by [the name of] Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer,
CSB
He swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will no longer be a delay

This must be the right translation, because "time" continues on for the 5 parallel paths or countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end: some given in days and some in months. These are "time" words. It is clear then that posttrib foolishly ignores the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject, and does poor exegesis of end time verses.

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. Not at all. We know the intent of the Author, not what someone thought they heard someone else teach, so they copied it.

the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). There is time after the end of this church: the 70th week. There is time after the 70th week ends the Jewish age: the 1000 year reign of Christ. Perhaps then, when God creates a new heaven and new earth, time as we know it will cease to exist.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
This was not some arbitrary event. It was written inside the book with seven seals - probably the lease document of Earth. If no one had been found worthy to open the seals, this event could not and would not have come to pass.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Not at all. Now that Jesus has His planet back, He can finish up judgment (the vials), destroy this world and create a new one. Remember, before the 7th angel will sound, Satat is still the god of this world. His reign ENDS here. That is why in chapter 12 he is cast down.

the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet More myth. The last trumpet end up the church age pretrib - pre-70th week. This is the last trump of THIS SERIES, but it is called the 7th trump.

the final trumpet sound for all mankind. This is a bold statement: Is God going to send angels to collect all trumpets, then take the memory away of how to make trumpets? Chances are very great that there will be trumpets in the Millennium.

and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” No, not true. He WILL reign for the 1000 years, but He also reigns forever. Why don't you believe Rev. 20?

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’.
Is 1260 days TIME?
Is 42 months TIME?
Is 3.5 years TIME?
Is 1000 years TIME?
Of course the right translation is "no more delay. God had to delay some judgment because before the 7th trumpet Satan was the god of this world. But after the 7th trumpet, NO MORE DELAY: the end of the age will come swiftly. I understand, someone that feels free to rearrange Revelation can make it say almost anything but the Author's intent. By the way, all are correct translations; the difference is in the Greek texts.

Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, This slamming of translators is uncalled for. Have YOU translated the entire New testament or entire bible?

Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory.
My only comment is, John then USED timing words after this.

Sorry, but the 7th trumpet is at the MIDPOINT.
Notice the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end:
42 months of trampling; 11:2
1260 days of witnessing; 11:3
!260 days of fleeing; 12:6
3.5 years; chapter 12
42 months of authority; chapter 13

These prove conclusively that the middle of the week is found in one of these chapters. Therefore you theory is faulty.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

· “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
· “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
· The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
· We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
· “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”
· “time” shall be “no longer.”

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Please address the above texts (and the attached commentary) i have posted that forbid Pretrib, and stop avoiding the obvious. All i am getting from you is opinion. These evasive fly-by postings do not cut it.

I hope you realize and understand, this same argument - pre vs post - as been ongoing on this and other forums for a very long time. Neither you or I will solve this disagreement. The reason is simple: there is no clear single verse anywhere that proves either position.
You have not answered why posttrib won't work either.
1. Posttrib theory eliminates people in natural bodies to replenish the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
2. Posttrib theory makes it impossible for believers to to attend the marriage and supper except the dead in Christ - and they would attend in spirit form only.
3. God has promised to keep His children out of His wrath - the very purpose of the pretrib rapture. Posttrib says God will protect His children during wrath. This is a contradiction: God also said that the saints would be overcome. Saints cannot be protected and overcome at the same time. If God protects, why the great number of beheaded in Revelation? What? God will protect only those who believe in a posttrib rapture?
4. A posttrib rapture will give all saints a resurrection body at the rapture, but the sheep and goats are natural people who either be sent to hell or allowed entrance into the Millennial kingdom. Where then will God find any sheep?
5. The bible speaks over and over at the unknown and unexpected return of Christ. It would not be so for a posttrib rapture. Once the 7th vial earthquake has shaken the mountains down into the earth, the next big event would be His coming. It would be expected.
7. Daniel makes it very clear that the 70th week is for HIS people, not the church. Posttrib theory ignores this fact.
8. In the parable of the ten virgins, 5 are foolish and need to go and purchase oil. They return later and are told it is too late, the door has been closed. This of course would be impossible in a posttrib world. There is no "later."
9. Logic along shows us God is not the kind of God that would pour out His wrath upon His own children. Some of the vials are going to be worldwide. NO ONE will be exempt from suffering.

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

· “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
· “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
· The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
· We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
· “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”
· “time” shall be “no longer.”

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. Not in a pretrib mind. We know the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. Some people just don't understand, The rulership of the kingdoms of the world are changed, but Jesus does not take physical possession then. Just like when someone buys a house: the house becomes officially theirs at the closing, but they are not IN the house yet.

“he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span. He reigns for a thousand years over NATURAL people. He reigns forever over resurrected people.

The time of God’s “wrath is come.” Yes, at the 6th seal. At the 7th trumpet wrath exists - because it started previously. And Paul's rapture comes before the 6th seal where wrath begins. How amazing then, John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter.

We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.” Good bible students know that these verse are prophecy, a looking ahead to soon to come events. Sorry, but they just don't happen here. Did you notice who says this? Rev. 20 shows us the judgment of the wicked comes a thousand years later.

“the mystery of God” will be “finished.” Yes, the mystery of how Satan loses the kingdoms of the world, and why. Good bible students know that Adam's 6000 year lease on earth RUNS OUT! His lease terminates. (The book with 7 seals is the earth lease document.) Satan only usurped Adam's lease, so at the 6000 year mark, suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth - so the kingdoms are transfered and Satan is cast down.

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You gerrymander Scripture and original words to fit your Pretrib error.

The King James Version New Testament Greek Lexicon is based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary. It succinctly defines chronos as: time either long or short. Time is the realm of seconds, minutes, days and years. It refers to the space we inhabit. Eternity is not governed by a calendar or a watch.

There are 52 mentions of the word chronos in Scripture and in not one instance does it make sense or does it fit to interpret this Greek word as “delay.” In fact, to interpret it as such will actually put the opposite meaning on the passage than that which is meant to be conveyed.

Let us start with its first mention in the new Testament in Matt 2:7: “Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.”

The Premil version reads: “Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what delay the star appeared.”

What about a few famous passages in Scripture. The inspired text reads in

John 7:33: “Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.”

The Premil version reads: “Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little delay am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.”

Premil butchers the original meaning and makes it say the opposite to what it reads.

Acts 1:-6-7 employs the Greek word twice: “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he (Jesus) said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”

The Premil version reads: “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this delay restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the delays or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”

The sacred text says in Acts 7:17: “when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt.”

The Premil version reads: “when the delay of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt.”

Revelation 20:3 states: “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The Premil version reads: “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little delay”

Premils would have us change the truth being conveyed in numerous passages to actually say the opposite by changing the meaning of the Greek word. This shows you the error of the position and the danger of eisegesis. There is so much doctoring of the inspired text that is required to make Premil fit that even the most ardent of Premils must blush at this one.

A thorough examination of the usage of the word finds that it is right here to interpret chronos as time. The King James Version translations are:

‘time’ 32 references,
‘season’ 4 references,
‘a while’ 4 references,
‘long as’ 4 references,
‘began’ 3 references,
‘space’ 2 references.
‘oftentimes’ 1 reference,
‘ago’ 1 reference,
‘old’ 1 reference,

Significantly, whichever one of these English words that one prefers, we assuredly know, it shall be “no more” at the one final future all-consummating Second Advent.

As for the Premillennialist interpretation, we find:

‘delay’ 0 times.

The translating of chronos as ‘delay’ in this passage by some of the modern versions therefore is clearly unsustainable and is completely out of keeping with the meaning of the word, the context of Revelation 10:1-11 and the standard usage of the word in the rest of the New Testament. The King James Version is therefore correct in interpreting the word as “time” in this reading.

Significantly, the remainder of the NASB translation of the passage (which interprets the word “delay”) also declares, “when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished.” Therefore, the whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should beetelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong all-consummating word that is rightly translated “finished” in this reading and is consistently interpreted, and means, completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

This is the time when “that which is in part shall be done away,” when “that which is perfect is [finally] come” the time when we shall “know even as also” we are “known” (1 Corinthians 13:9-12).

What is more, and notably, the NASB Translation interprets chronos as “time” 30 times, “times” 5 times, “long” 5 times, “long ages” 2 times, “exact time” 1 time, “while” 5 times “period” 2 times, “age”1 time, “all” 1 time, “long” 1 time, and “delay” only 1 time. This is clearly a faulty interpretation designed by bias translators to justify the Premil doctrine.

Conclusion

Hello! There is no time in eternity. Once Jesus arrives the new glorified arrangement of the new heavens and new earth arrive. There is no need for watches, diaries and calendars.

This passage exposes Pretrib and Premil and supports the Amil position.

This is an argument in futility: John uses TIMING words after he wrote chapter 10, PROVING time still exists.

Non-profit Prophet · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
I have yet to find one in scripture.

I found two for you... and you ignored them.

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

Davy said:
Christ's quote from Daniel 11:31 is specifically about the same kind of thing Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. Jerusalem. The Antichrist doesn't have to follow that old blueprint of Antiochus exactly, but will follow the very Daniel 11:31 Scripture as written, because Lord Jesus quoted it.

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

That means of course, another built temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world, for Antichrist to fulfill that. It means the Jews in Jerusalem starting up old covenant sacrifices and worship again.

Exactly! Good job!

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

Davy said:
Those ideas are from men, and not from God's Word. The reason why I can say what I did with the many other Scripture evidences, is because they are there. But what you say, you cannot back up from God's Word, you can only make things up.

Dream on! In Matthew 24 verse 15 Jesus mentions the abomination - the very event that will divide that future 7 year period of time. The division in half is proved in days (1260 twice), in months (42 months twice) and in years. OF COURSE it is backed up by the word of God. I know - only posttribbers use real scripture. Sorry, heard it all before. Did not believe it then and still don't.

By the way, nice guitar! I bought a US built Gibson Les Paul Custom when I was in the army in Germany. Loved it!

iamlamad · Mar 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Was Nicodemus living under the old covenant or the new covenant?

Of course the OLD up to the time Jesus rose from the dead.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
I hope you realize and understand, this same argument - pre vs post - as been ongoing on this and other forums for a very long time. Neither you or I will solve this disagreement. The reason is simple: there is no clear single verse anywhere that proves either position.
You have not answered why posttrib won't work either.

Posttrib and Amillennialism has countless Scriptures. Pretrib has nothing!

1. Posttrib theory eliminates people in natural bodies to replenish the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Exactly! That is because all men are either destroyed or glorified when Jesus comes. There are no survivors as I have repeatedly showed you, and how you have been unable to refute. This is the end of the world. We are now into eternity. Men either inherit the new earth or the lake of fire forever. Rev 20 is the last of 7 recaps taking us back to Christ's glorious resurrection.

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

2. Posttrib theory makes it impossible for believers to to attend the marriage and supper except the dead in Christ - and they would attend in spirit form only.

How so? It is the catching away when Christ comes "with" and "for" His saints (as in 2 Thess 4).

3. God has promised to keep His children out of His wrath - the very purpose of the pretrib rapture. Posttrib says God will protect His children during wrath. This is a contradiction: God also said that the saints would be overcome. Saints cannot be protected and overcome at the same time. If God protects, why the great number of beheaded in Revelation? What? God will protect only those who believe in a posttrib rapture?

God has always protected His people in the midst of judgment. We can literally see that from Genesis to Revelation. Pretribbers point to the judgment that is poured out on this earth in Revelation and struggle to accept that the Church could be present through such a period. However, they forget two important things. First, Revelation is covered in apocalyptic symbolism, and second, the plagues and judgments are remarkably similar to those poured out by God on Egypt when the children of Israel inhabited the land.

· 1 Thessalonians 5:9 confirms we are not appointed to orge wrath: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
· 1 Thessalonians 3:3 makes clear we are appointed to thlipsis tribulation: “That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.”
Wrath is God’s punishment on the wicked. Tribulation is the devil’s punishment upon the Church.

4. A posttrib rapture will give all saints a resurrection body at the rapture, but the sheep and goats are natural people who either be sent to hell or allowed entrance into the Millennial kingdom. Where then will God find any sheep?

There is no such thing as a future millennium. We are in it now. You have to force 1000 years into countless passages that it does not exist. That is because it's not going to happen in the future.

5. The bible speaks over and over at the unknown and unexpected return of Christ. It would not be so for a posttrib rapture. Once the 7th vial earthquake has shaken the mountains down into the earth, the next big event would be His coming. It would be expected.

Not so. He could come tonight and all is over.

7. Daniel makes it very clear that the 70th week is for HIS people, not the church. Posttrib theory ignores this fact.

Is there a gap between the 7th and the 8th week?

What future events do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

8. In the parable of the ten virgins, 5 are foolish and need to go and purchase oil. They return later and are told it is too late, the door has been closed. This of course would be impossible in a posttrib world. There is no "later."

Exactly! This is the end of the world. Those left behind are destroyed. Those caught up are delivered from the wrath to come.

9. Logic along shows us God is not the kind of God that would pour out His wrath upon His own children. Some of the vials are going to be worldwide. NO ONE will be exempt from suffering.

We will be caught up before He pours out His wrath on the wicked and this earth at the end.

Is the Rapture biblical?

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