Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad said:

This is all myth: it has been shown over and over on these threads that first and second century writers wrote of a pretrib rapture. Does it make you feel better to write this myth?

THE TRUTH? The rapture doctrine was invented BY GOD before the foundation of the world, and God kept it secret until it was revealed to Paul.

Why make up myths about something written clearly in God's word? Go and refresh your mind: read 1 Thes chapter 4 & 5.

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Everything that disagrees with you and your beliefs is a MYTH, when it is in fact Pretrib which is a MYTH invented by the Jesuits to cause division within Protestantism. Full Preterism is the same.

iamlamad said:

Wow! It is amazing how you have this all figured out to eliminate a pretrib rapture!

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All I'm doing is simply heeding my Lord Jesus' answer to His disciple's question at the end of Luke 17. But you are not, even though you make up all kinds of excuses.

iamlamad said:

and so did early church writers.

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This is a claim that Rapturists often make. Most famously an out of context quote from St. Irenaeus.

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'" - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, ch. 29.1

Out of context, it sure looks like it might support the Dispensationalist claim.

But let's look further, earlier he writes,

"And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into a barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire, they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: 'I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.'" - ibid. Book V, ch. 28.4

Now let's look at the passage from ch. 29 in its fuller context, with the above in mind:

"In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons 'as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance--in fact, as nothing;' so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces toward the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

The Church shall undergo tribulation as a testing, to purify, that through it the Church might be rendered more suitable for the resurrection and life that is to come in eternity with God. The Church does not escape tribulation, but shall endure and go through the purgation of fire of trial, suffering, and tribulation for her own benefit, that coming through it, we might be found, like St. Polycarp whom Irenaeus quotes, "the pure bread of God". Wheat shall be separated from the tares, the chaff consumed, but the wheat enduring, ground up, and made into bread.

That is what the blessed father is saying here.

But nevertheless, Rapturists will continue to misquote the ancient fathers wherever it suits their purposes, without much care or concern for what the fathers themselves actually say. That's a pretty serious problem.

-CryptoLutheran

sovereigngrace said:

LOL.

Where do you find a touch-down on the Mt of Olives in Rev19?
Where do you find the battle of Armageddon mentioned in Rev19?



Hello! Revelation 19:7-10 describes the consummation of our relationship with Christ when we join Him in the air: “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come [Gr. erchomai], and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are ‘called’ [Gr. kaleō] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

This is the great union in the sky! This is the catching away. There is only one future coming.

This word “called” as in “called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb” comes from the Greek word kaleō meaning to be invited or bidden. This refers to the catching away of the saints when those on earth are bidden to meet Christ in the air.

This reading again shows correlates with the consistent catching away passages of Christ rescuing those who are ready: “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.” This is a common thread that ties all these passages together. Those that are “ready are rescues” those that are caught unexpected are destroyed.



Really? You cannot even show me "a rapture" in Revelation. That says it all! I have shown that there is not one mention of a 7 year trib. It is imaginary. It doesn't exist. The numbers do not add up. They actually expose the theory.

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I have shown you over and over that these things DO exist and are found in scripture plain as day. The problem is, people with preconceived glasses are blind to them.

OF COURSE the numbers add up! But that is the point: if the numbers are parallel times, it is a MISTAKE to add them!

I showed you over and over:
Daniel two times showed us the last half of the week is time, times and half of time or 3.5 years.
Then John shows us FIVE times:
1260 days TWICE.
42 months TWICE.
Time, times and half of time once.

This is SEVEN scriptures that prove the last half of the 70th week is real and will take place. I think God expects any reader to be able to multiply by 2 and get the entire week.

This is all SCRIPTURE - scripture you plan on overlooking because it does not fit.

Daniel 9:
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [one seven];
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Notice how clearly Daniel tells us a week is coming. A period of a week of years or seven years.

Notice how clearly Daniel tells us some event will divide that week into two halves.

Then the seven times God has given us the time for the last half of the week, in days, in months and in years -

All this should be FAR MORE than enough for even you to believe. But you have to put up with those pesky preconceived glasses that deny all this. I understand.

ViaCrucis said:

This is a claim that Rapturists often make. Most famously an out of context quote from St. Irenaeus.

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'" - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, ch. 29.1

Out of context, it sure looks like it might support the Dispensationalist claim.

But let's look further, earlier he writes,

"And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into a barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire, they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: 'I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.'" - ibid. Book V, ch. 28.4

Now let's look at the passage from ch. 29 in its fuller context, with the above in mind:

"In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons 'as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance--in fact, as nothing;' so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces toward the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

The Church shall undergo tribulation as a testing, to purify, that through it the Church might be rendered more suitable for the resurrection and life that is to come in eternity with God. The Church does not escape tribulation, but shall endure and go through the purgation of fire of trial, suffering, and tribulation for her own benefit, that coming through it, we might be found, like St. Polycarp whom Irenaeus quotes, "the pure bread of God". Wheat shall be separated from the tares, the chaff consumed, but the wheat enduring, ground up, and made into bread.

That is what the blessed father is saying here.

But nevertheless, Rapturists will continue to misquote the ancient fathers wherever it suits their purposes, without much care or concern for what the fathers themselves actually say. That's a pretty serious problem.

-CryptoLutheran

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Did you not notice that He never said the church would go through wrath? God has made it clear, the entire church age has been "great tribulation," with multiplied thousands of martyrs - probably millions by now. He has it right: the church is caught up, then tribulation such as has not been..." We are not here for those 7 years because all 7 years are the wrath of God on earth.

Look, God has promised He will not set any appointments for us with His wrath. But if you wish to set your own appointment, I am convinced God will accept that. My only question is, WHY, when God has made a way to escape what is coming?

Davy said:

All I'm doing is simply heeding my Lord Jesus' answer to His disciple's question at the end of Luke 17. But you are not, even though you make up all kinds of excuses.

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What are you going to do with Luke 21:36? Are you planning on escaping what is coming? Or perhaps you are going to set your OWN appointment with His wrath. It is for sure God is not going to set an appointment for you.

safswan said:

The Real Rapture - 4


What Really Happens and When.​

The preceding arguments were necessary to prove that, the theory of a secret rapture, followed by a period of tribulation, is not sustained by the scriptures,neither is the theory of a brief appearing.

...
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." [Matthew 5: 4].
　

safswan.

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This was a great instruction in myth. Here is the truth:

Understanding Paul’s meaning in 2 Thes. 2


First we must understand that what Paul actually wrote was:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for - except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Most translators added some text - and we can only guess that their added text was Paul's meaning. In fact, I suspect it is. They typically add: "that Day will not come". WHAT day? What day did Paul just mention? From your text: "the day of the Lord has already come" So Paul was referring back to the "Day of the Lord." However, some Greek texts have it as "the Day of Christ." Which is correct? We don't know. Neither do we know, in Paul's mind, if there was a difference. If I had to guess, I would say Paul's meaning was the Day of the Lord, for that is what he used in his first letter to the Thessalonian church. We all I, believe, will agree that "Christ is Lord."

Next, we MUST understand that the THEME of this passage is the gathering.

(Amplified) 2 Thes. 2:1 BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,

Therefore, the CORRECT theory of what Paul is telling us MUST include the gathering. Any theory that does not clearly include the rapture or gathering of the church cannot be the intent of the Author.

Now let's get into verse 3:

NASB. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

“It” here is referring back to the Day of the Lord. The real question here is, what did Paul mean by the Greek word "Apostasia?" Many people puzzle over it, yet there is no need, because in three parallel verses Paul clearly shows us his meaning. It is called CONTEXT. Notice in this very verse, SOMETHING must occur FIRST, before the man of sin can be revealed. Look VERY CLOSE: only ONE THING comes FIRST:


3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, (KJV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction,(ESV)

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,(NASB)

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness[c] is revealed, the son of destruction. (HCSB)

let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first and the man of [c]sin be revealed, the son of perdition, (ASV)

Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (DRB)

let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction, (YLT)

So there is only ONE THING that must come first, not two things. And that one thing is hidden in Paul's use of the word "Apostasia." Then, AFTER that one thing will take place, the apostasia, then the man of sin can be revealed.

Now verse 6: And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Read closely:

(NIV)6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

(NASB) 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

(ESV) 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

(ASV) 6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

(HCSB) 6 And you know what currently restrains [him], so that he will be revealed in his time.

(Young's Literal) 6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,

(Peshitta - Lamsa) 6 And now you know what has prevented him from being revealed in his time.

A beginning reader could understand the two parts to this sentence: first, there is something holding back, restraining, holding down, the man of sin from being revealed, and then at the proper time he will be revealed. After reading this we are SUPPOSE TO KNOW who and what the restrainer is, who or what is holding him back, and preventing him from being revealed until his time, for Paul wrote, "and NOW you know."

Paul wanted us to KNOW so much, he basically wrote it yet again. Something is restraining or holding back, until such time as the restraining is removed or taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be removed.

(ASV)7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only [there is] one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, ...


(NASB) 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed ...


(Green's Literal) For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, ...


(Peshitta - Lamsa) 7 For the mystery of iniquity is already at work: until he who now is the obstacle be taken out of the way.
8 Then shall the Wicked be exposed, ...


(The Emphasized Bible) 7 For, the secret, of lawlessness, already, is inwardly working itself, - only, until, he that restraineth at present, shall be gone, out of the midst:
8 And, then, shall be revealed the lawless one,


Again, ANY beginning reader would be able to understand that the restraining force or the one holding back or the one being an obstacle to the revealing, is going to be taken out of the way, removed, gone out of the midst. And AFTER that happens, THEN the man of sin can and will be revealed.

Verses 6-8 are written in simple language, easy to understand. It is written very plainly, and all translations give us the same idea. Now we have seen many times in a row with the different translations, that there is a restraining force holding the man of sin down, and PREVENTING his revealing. And we know that the restrainer will be taken out of the way, or removed, or departed out of the midst FIRST, BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

Now, back to us KNOWING: Paul wrote "And NOW YOU KNOW."

WHY did Paul write this? Because HE JUST TOLD US who the restrainer was. He wrote: "And Now You Know," in verse 6, so if we back up verse by verse and look for something "taken out of the way," we will KNOW - beyond any doubt - WHO the restrainer is.

WE find NOTHING "taken out of the way" in verse 5, nothing in verse 4. But consider verse 3

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the [apostasia] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Notice this verse carefully, then answer the question: is the man of sin revealed at the end of this verse? Most certainly he is! "IS revealed." Look back up at verse 3 in the different translations shown: many say the same thing: after verse 3a is finished, then in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED and Paul goes on to say what he will do when he is revealed, proving that in verse 3 Paul’s intention is that he IS revealed in 3b.

Therefore simple logic tells us that in the first part of this verse the one restraining is "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." It can be no other way, for Paul told is twice, once in verse 6 and again in verses 7 & 8 that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the one restraining is taken out of the way, yet in 3b he is certainly now revealed. Without any doubt then, in verse 3a, the “taken out of the way” MUST have taken place: the one restraining has been removed or taken out of the way.

Remember, we have just seen many times the restrainer mentioned, then the man of sin revealed in different translations. We have seen several times the restrainer mentioned, and then the restrainer REMOVED, DEPARTED and then the man of sin revealed. We know that the revealing CANNOT HAPPEN until the restrainer or the one “holding down,” is GONE out of the midst or taken out of the way.

Here is where Paul TELLS US WHO: (And now you know…)

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"

Now, we have just seen many verses telling us what must come first: it is the REMOVAL or DEPARTURE of the one restraining. Therefore, this word "apostasia MUST carry the meaning of something "taken out of the way," or something departed or something gone out of the midst. Now, look again at one of the FIRST English translations:

Geneva Bible: 1587

3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

This translation fits PERFECTLY with all the previous verses shown in MANY translations. There are several other early translations that use the word “departing.” If there is something “departing” is it being “taken out of the way? It certainly is, if it is not departing under its own power. And what is the THEME of this passage? It is the gathering, were from a whole, a certain part is “taken out of the way.” So this verse really does tell us WHAT or WHO is removed out of the way, or taken out of the midst. It is the GATHERING, the rapture of the church. Don't scream yet: at the catching up, is the church "departing?" You know it is!

We cannot ignore that this is not just any departing, it is THE departing. The adjective is there big as life in the Greek Texts: this is not your everyday ordinary departing, it is the SIGNIFICANT departing, the one Paul was talking about in the first verse: the “gathering.”

Therefore, DON'T EVER think we don't know who the restrainer is, for Paul wrote, AND NOW YOU KNOW!

Since this is truth, we need to remove this idea of a great “falling away” or apostasy from our teaching. The true church is GROWING, not falling away.

Yes, a few do fall away, but more come. This theory of a great “falling away” is false doctrine, not found in the scriptures. It came from the KJV’s poor translation of “apostasia.”

Now, according to Strong’s Greek dictionary, could “apostasia” mean a departing such as the rapture? Let’s look. “Apostasia” is a compound Greek work starting with the word “Apo.”

Apo G575
of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
2. of separation of a part from the whole
...1. where of a whole some part is taken

Does this fit with a “departing” as in the rapture, where of a whole, a part is “taken out of the way?” Yes, it certainly does!

The second word is Stasia or something similar, where we get the idea of a stationary engine or something else that is stationary or not moving. The idea is, the rapture will be SO QUICK, the Bride will be snatched away while the rest of the world is stationary.

I think we can rest assured that Paul knew what this compound word could mean or how it could be used. Perhaps this was not the most common meaning, but it certainly could be used for the rapture. We might also ask: did Paul write of a great catching away in his first letter, or did he write of a great falling away? Of course, he wrote of the rapture.

We could also say it this way:

Verses 3-5 above provide a description of the order of events:

1. The removal of the Church

2. The revealing of the antichrist

3. The antichrist presenting himself as God

And then again in verses 6-8:

1. The Church is holding the antichrist back, though he is still at work now

2. He is to be revealed in the right time

3. The One who holds him back (the Church) is taken out of the way

4. The lawless one (antichrist) is revealed at the proper time

5. The Lord returns to destroy the antichrist (Second Coming)


When using the word "departure" or "removal" in verse 3 above, the subsequent verses coincide and restate the same events. We have three similar statements on the removal of the Church first, and then the revealing of the antichrist.

Paul speaks of the day of the Lord, giving two signs to look for to KNOW one is IN the day of the Lord. (The Greek text is not that the day is coming, but that they were IN IT: it had already started. KJV put it: “as that the day of Christ is at hand.” Young’s Literal puts it more correctly: “as that the day of Christ hath arrived.” They were not scared that the day was coming, they were told they were IN IT. They were indeed upset, for Paul had taught them that they would be caught up before the Day would come. (That is exact what 1 Thes. 5 shows us.)

We know from other scriptures that the man of sin will be revealed for who he really is, at the abomination - right? When he enters the temple and declares that he is God, many will know that he is revealed for who is really is. Well, that is well INTO the day of the Lord. (John begins the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal, but the midpoint is in chapter 11.) Paul’s argument here then is answering the question: how can one know they are IN the day of the Lord (that it has already started)? His answer is, first there will be the great catching away of the Bride of Christ, then the man of sin will be revealed. If anyone sees these two signs, they will KNOW that the Day has started, and they are IN the Day of the Lord. And this is exactly what John shows us in Revelation.

It is truth of scripture that the day of the Lord will come soon. Since Paul declares that what they think is WRONG doctrine, then the truth of scripture cannot be that the day of the Lord is "at hand" as KJV says, but rather that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT (having already begun). In other words, it is impossible for a false report to be "true doctrine".

The implication is that if the false report was that the Day of the Lord would come soon, then there is a huge contradiction within the Bible on this teaching. The Greek text brings out the truth, that they thought the DAY had come and they were in it.

It is true doctrine that the Day of the Lord will soon come in the future; this is what we still teach today. Therefore, there could not have been a false report of true doctrine. The false report (and correct interpretation of what Paul was writing) was that start of the Day of the Lord was past; had already begun; and that the Day of the Lord was present.

A report saying that the Day of the Lord would "SOON ARRIVE" (which would be true doctrine) could not cause the true Christians in Thessalonia to worry or shake their faith. A message that said the Day of the Lord would soon arrive would be a blessing of comfort for believers; especially believers who were facing tribulation as the Thessalonains were. Christians look forward to that day; it is the blessed hope.

Therefore, the correct interpretation of 2 Thess 2:2 is that Paul was addressing a false report that said the Day of the Lord had already begun and was present, which meant that the resurrection was past.

safswan said:

The Real Rapture - 3
​

Should Christians Be Looking For Christ or Anti-christ?


Certainly the Christians hope is in Christ but we have been constantly warned to look for false prophets and false christs.[Titus 2:13;I Thessalonians 2:19;Matthew 24:23-26]


Anti-christ - Against Christ,Instead of Christ,enemy of Christ.
Anti - opposite,against,in exchange.


Hence to be anti-christ covers all the ares in which one may be engaged as described by the definitions above,these include:


i) Persons who try to make it appear as if they have fulfilled the promise of Christ's second coming.

ii) Persons who teach things which would nullify the effect of Christ's redemptive work.

iii) Persons who directly oppose the lordship of Christ and would want to do things contrary to Christ's teaching.

[See, Matthew 24:23-26;I John 2:22;4:3;Psalm 2:1-12;II John:7]


The apostle John told us we have been warned:


"Little children it is the last time and as ye have heard that anti-christ shall come;even now are there many anti-christs;whereby we know that it is the last time."[I John 2:18]


"...and this is that spirit of anti-christ,whereof ye have heard that it should come;and even now already is it in the world."[I John 4:3]


Why would John be warning Christians about anti-christ,and say it is in the world,if this was not something which Christians should take into consideration even as they(anti-christs) pervert the truth about God and Christ?[I John 2:19-28;4:1-6]


The final major anti-christ is the man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord.The mystery of iniquity(error falsehood,
wickedness,lawlessness) is now working,as it was in the time of the apostles,to lead up to the time of his appearance,and many
will be deceived by him,as they are taught not to look for
antichrist.[II Thessalonians 2:3-12]


There are many scriptures which describe the coming of the Lord and if carefully examined they clearly show that it is at the time when Christ comes to judge the world that He will call the saints (the Church) unto Him.Various terms are used to describe this occasion and this results in some confusion about the event.
Paul asked the Philippians to be without offence on the day of Christ.


"That ye may approve things excellent;that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ."[Philippians 1:10;2:16]

John told Christians to whom he was writing,that their love is being made perfect for the day of judgement(not for a secret rapture before the day of judgement).


"Herein is our love made perfect,that we may have boldness in the day of judgement:because as He is,so are we in this world."[I John 4:17]

Peter says Christians should be looking for and hasting ie., earnestly desiring,the day of the Lord or the day of God,and he also asks Christians to be without spot and blameless,ie., also without offense,perfect.


"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with great noise....seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,what manner of persons ought ye be in all holy conversation and godliness,looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved....,wherefore beloved seeing that ye look for such things,be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace,without spot blameless."[II Peter 3:10-14;see also,Mark 13:24-27;Matthew 24:29,30,43;I Thessalonians 5:1-4;3:12,13.]


From the above it is clear that Christians were being told to look for the day of the Lord when the world is to be judged and when they will be called to be in the presence of Christ.If Christians were to be raptured 3 1/2 to 7 years before this day,they would not have been warned about these things nor told to prepare for it.


Paul also told Timothy to keep the commands given to him until the appearing(not secret rapture) of the Lord.[I Timothy 6:14,15]


He also called it,that day,and he also hopes a Christian who had
been good to him will find mercy in that day.[II Timothy 1:12,18]


It is when the Lord is revealed from heaven in His glory that He will punish those who trouble the Christian,and also give the Christian relief from his tribulation,not in a secret rapture.


"And to you who are troubled rest with us,when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God..."[II Thessalonians 1:4-12;see also,I Peter 4:12-19]


From the preceding scriptures it is clear that the time of the gathering of the Church to Christ and the judgement of the world is called;that day,the day of Christ,the day of the Lord,the day of God,the day of judgement.


To be continued,

safswan.

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From the above it is clear that Christians were being told to look for the day of the Lord when the world is to be judged and when they will be called to be in the presence of Christ.If Christians were to be raptured 3 1/2 to 7 years before this day,they would not have been warned about these things nor told to prepare for it.

Paul said that THE DAY would come as a thief in the night, and another scripture tells us that JESUS comes as a thief in the night. Why is this?

It is simple: Jesus comes to the air, FOR His bride to catch them up, and this event, the rapture, will trigger the Day of the Lord. In other words, there is no TIME between the rapture and the DAY; The DAY follows hard after the rapture.

So if we as believers are looking for the DAY, we are also looking for the rapture. It is truth that judgment begins when the Day of the Lord begins. It begins with a great earthquake as shown at the 6th seal. (The church has bee waiting at the 5 seal for the final church age martyr).

The truth then is that Christ warned us about the judgment so that we would be ready when He comes and not be left behind in judgment and wrath.

I disagree with safswan.

iamlamad said:

This was a great instruction in myth. Here is the truth:

Understanding Paul’s meaning in 2 Thes. 2

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Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

safswan said:

The Real Rapture -2​

How Did This Grave Misunderstanding Come About?


...

Not just a portion of the book pertains to Christians,but all,and hence those who ignore certain portions of the book and say they pertain to Israel, or to some time after the "Church age",do so at their own peril.


To be continued,

safswan.

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All this is aided by a lack of understanding of the scriptures which would cause the secret rapture theory to be exposed as a deception.

There is most certainly a lack of understanding, on both the pretrib side and the posttrib side. But which is truth? Which is deception? It is all based on HOW people read the same scriptures. I challenge people to read without preconceived glasses!

With such clear instructions it is amazing how any one could formulate a teaching about a tribulation after a secret rapture of the saints.
The clear instructions is that there WILL BE a rapture, followed by the start of the Day of the Lord, then the 70th week. It is all laid out in order in Revelation for anyone to read. The rapture (NOT shown in Revelation because John did not see it) in Revelation will come just before wrath, exactly as Paul has laid out. Where does wrath begin in Revelation? In chapter 6 at the 6th seal.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told judgment cannot come until the final martyr is killed. Yet, judgment starts at the 6th seal. Therefore the final church age martyr has to come before the 6th seal.

What event would cause a martyr to be the FINAL martyr of the church age? of course the rapture that ENDS the church age. John and Paul are showing us that the rapture comes between the 5th and 6th seal.

The 70th week then, or "trib" starts with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. As further proof of this, God then showed John the raptured church in chapter 7 - as the great crowd, too large to number.

There it is in black and white: the rapture, followed the the start of the DAY, then the 70th week. A posttrib rapture is complete myth.

,it is after tribulations, afflictions and perplexities, that Christ comes for His elect.
This is simply NOT TRUE. Christ is coming for the battle of Armageddon. But at the same time sends out angels to GATHER THE ELECT...but who are these elect? Where are they gathered FROM? They are gathered from BOTH heaven and earth. The rapture ONLY gathers from earth. This cannot be the rapture. Angels gather here, but no angels gather at the rapture. So WHO is being gathered here?

God has promised to gather all Jews and descendants of Jacob back to Israel. God sends out angels to accomplish this.

Therefore, anyone teaching that this gathering together of the elect is Paul's rapture is simply mistaken and are teaching error. There are three reasons why this is not Paul's rapture:
1: It comes at the wrong time: the rapture comes before the trib, not after. This gathering is after.
2. It gathers from the wrong place. The rapture gathers ONLY FROM EARTH.
3. At the rapture, all believers will get a resurrection body that can fly. ! No need for Angels!

They both encourage the saints to watch and be sober as the Lord will come as a thief in the night
This warning is given so that people would be ready for the rapture and not get left behind. The rapture comes first when Jesus comes to the air, then, after the rapture, the DAY.

Why did Jesus not speak of the secret rapture of the Church to these men who are to be the foundation of the Church?
They were Jews. He told them about the end of THEIR age, that is about the 70th week. The Jewish church died out. But when the Jews did not receive Jesus as their Messiah as a nation, God turned to the Gentiles. We are now waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. The rapture is for the Gentile church of today.

Note to readers: it is very difficult to find anything specific to the Gentile church of today in the Olivet Discourse.

The fallacy of this argument is evident and should have put to rest any thought of a rapture,before tribulation theory,but other misunderstood scriptures are used to perpetuate this myth.
Sorry but the myth is a postrib rapture. God is pretrib and the scriptures show pretrib.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."[I Thessalonians 5:9 This is truth. God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. I wonder why then, so many posttribbers wish to set their OWN appointment? Especially when Luke tells us God has an escape plan so we all can escape His wrath.

The question is not whether or not God could protect us in His wrath. The question is, what is His intent: to pull us out or to protect us? The answer is clear: His word is out: the Antichrist will be given authority over any believers. This is the ONLY verse believers can have faith in during the 70th week. All believers need to today is follow God's escape plan: be ready any time for the pretrib rapture.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
It is truth: the moment someone is born again they are NOT translated to heaven. This verse is not speaking to the rapture or lack of a rapture.

The Lord will not come to the earth for the saints ,as they will be caught up into the air to meet Him.
Hence the dead in Christ, when resurrected, will meet the Lord on His journey towards the earth.
The truth is, He comes for the start of the Day of the Lord, and we find that in chapter 6 at the 6th seal, NOT IN CHAPTER 19 when He comes to Armageddon!

WHERE will Jesus be during the 70th week? Of course, IN HEAVEN. And that is just where He tells us He is going to bring us to: to the homes prepared where He will be during the week. The truth is, the church will be WITH HIM during the time of wrath on earth. I challenge the readers to read John 14, first two or three verses and ask themselves "where is Jesus during the wrath poured out on earth?"

In order to escape the judgements/tribulations described in the book of Revelation,the rapture of the Church is said to take place at the moment John is told to, "come up hither".
This is truth: pretrib for years has claimed the rapture to be in Rev. 4:1. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A beginning reader would tell us it was JOHN caught up. And we know it was around 95 AD. Sorry pretribbers, but the rapture did not happen in 95 AD!

Some pretribbers have learned the truth, that the rapture comes just before wrath (6th seal) and just after the final martyr as seen at the 5th seal.

This book is for the Church Sorry, but I disagree. It is more for the Jews that it is for the church. Why? Because many chapters in the book are about the 70th week and that week is for the Jews, not for the church. However, any believer can read it and be blessed. And it does tell us the end of the story.

sovereigngrace said:

You just do not get it. Take your Pretrib glasses off for one moment and let the sacred text speak for itself.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo (Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jesus said in Mark 3:23-27: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo Strong’s 1210) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (or deo Strong’s 1210) him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

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Yet, Jesus said "the prince of this world has nothing in me." He regognized the truth that Satan was and is the god of this world.

Have you just not read in Rev. 11 where at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are given back to Jesus? Did you not read then in the next chapter that Satan is case down from the heavenlies. It is there and then that Satan looses the kingdoms of the world. At that time then, he will no longer be the god or prince of this world.

sovereigngrace said:

Because it is not in the Bible! Hello! Many of us have abandoned this error because the Bible exposed it as man made.

I have asked you repeatedly a simple and basic question which you cannot remotely answer. That is because it is not in the Bible: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

The reasoning answer is: No! You have nothing. All you have is 2+2+2 equals 222, when in fact such adds up to 6. You do not have one single proof text. All you have is speculations and theories. The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

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It is ok that when posttribbers can't see the pretrib scriptures for what they are. They are free to set their own appointment with God's wrath on earth. (That is what they are doing in denying the pretrib rapture.)

Posttribbers can ignore the escape clause in Luk 21:36. They can still get to heaven after being left behind - but will probably end up with that group John saw in Rev. 20 where he said "souls."

Why is this? Because God's word to believers during the 70th week is clear: The saints WILL BE OVERCOME. Are you thinking you can go against His word? What does overcome mean to you?

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

iamlamad said:

I have shown you over and over that these things DO exist and are found in scripture plain as day. The problem is, people with preconceived glasses are blind to them.

OF COURSE the numbers add up! But that is the point: if the numbers are parallel times, it is a MISTAKE to add them!

I showed you over and over:
Daniel two times showed us the last half of the week is time, times and half of time or 3.5 years.
Then John shows us FIVE times:
1260 days TWICE.
42 months TWICE.
Time, times and half of time once.

This is SEVEN scriptures that prove the last half of the 70th week is real and will take place. I think God expects any reader to be able to multiply by 2 and get the entire week.

This is all SCRIPTURE - scripture you plan on overlooking because it does not fit.

Daniel 9:
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [one seven];
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Notice how clearly Daniel tells us a week is coming. A period of a week of years or seven years.

Notice how clearly Daniel tells us some event will divide that week into two halves.

Then the seven times God has given us the time for the last half of the week, in days, in months and in years -

All this should be FAR MORE than enough for even you to believe. But you have to put up with those pesky preconceived glasses that deny all this. I understand.

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iamlamad said:

I have shown you over and over that these things DO exist and are found in scripture plain as day. The problem is, people with preconceived glasses are blind to them.

OF COURSE the numbers add up! But that is the point: if the numbers are parallel times, it is a MISTAKE to add them!

I showed you over and over:
Daniel two times showed us the last half of the week is time, times and half of time or 3.5 years.
Then John shows us FIVE times:
1260 days TWICE.
42 months TWICE.
Time, times and half of time once.

This is SEVEN scriptures that prove the last half of the 70th week is real and will take place. I think God expects any reader to be able to multiply by 2 and get the entire week.

This is all SCRIPTURE - scripture you plan on overlooking because it does not fit.

Daniel 9:
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [one seven];
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Notice how clearly Daniel tells us a week is coming. A period of a week of years or seven years.

Notice how clearly Daniel tells us some event will divide that week into two halves.

Then the seven times God has given us the time for the last half of the week, in days, in months and in years -

All this should be FAR MORE than enough for even you to believe. But you have to put up with those pesky preconceived glasses that deny all this. I understand.

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What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

iamlamad said:

What are you going to do with Luke 21:36? Are you planning on escaping what is coming? Or perhaps you are going to set your OWN appointment with His wrath. It is for sure God is not going to set an appointment for you.

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Why don't you stick to the point of what I showed from Luke 17 and Matthew 24:28. You ought to be asking why pre-trib rapture leaders wrongly use that first one taken to mean a gathering of the Church to Christ when Jesus showed it means those who are like a dead carcase where the fowls are gathered to feast.

And again, you don't know what that 'wrath' is about, nor what timing it is for.

Also, not supposed to goad or taunt on this forum.

iamlamad said:

It is ok that when posttribbers can't see the pretrib scriptures for what they are. They are free to set their own appointment with God's wrath on earth. (That is what they are doing in denying the pretrib rapture.)

Posttribbers can ignore the escape clause in Luk 21:36. They can still get to heaven after being left behind - but will probably end up with that group John saw in Rev. 20 where he said "souls."

Why is this? Because God's word to believers during the 70th week is clear: The saints WILL BE OVERCOME. Are you thinking you can go against His word? What does overcome mean to you?

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

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All Posttribbers believe we escape the wrath of God, but they do not believe in this 7 years trib and 3rd coming after the catching away. You are unable to show that anywhere in the inspired text.

• You do not have one single rapture text (2nd coming) that teaches the wicked surviving.
• You do not have one single rapture (2nd coming) text that teaches a 7-year trib following.
• You do not have one single 3rd coming text that teaches a 7-year trib preceding it.

Yet there are many texts that teach a singular climactic return of Christ - including 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 6:12-16, 19:11-16.

iamlamad said:

It is ok that when posttribbers can't see the pretrib scriptures for what they are. They are free to set their own appointment with God's wrath on earth. (That is what they are doing in denying the pretrib rapture.)

Posttribbers can ignore the escape clause in Luk 21:36. They can still get to heaven after being left behind - but will probably end up with that group John saw in Rev. 20 where he said "souls."

Why is this? Because God's word to believers during the 70th week is clear: The saints WILL BE OVERCOME. Are you thinking you can go against His word? What does overcome mean to you?

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

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Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

Revelation 6:12-16 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second Coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

This reading correlates with Revelation 19 and graphically describes the same apocalyptic scene. It shows what awaits those left behind at Christ's Coming. The book of Revelation is like that. It is a recapitulation of events approaching the Second Coming and things that attend it. Here, when the reality of their awful doomed state finally hits them, the wicked hide from the One that has come to destroy. Like Noah and Lot's day, their day of opportunity is gone. Without exceptions, all outside the ark (Christ) at the catching away will be destroyed, whether bond or free.

Revelation 19:11-16 mirrors this passage, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Rev 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.

sovereigngrace said:

What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

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Why don't you give us your answers first. I promise, I will answer when I see your answers.
You see, these are tough questions. I may need some help.

One thing for sure, "everlasting righteousness" is for every believer in Jesus Christ. He gives His righteousness to every believer. However, since I believe it is possible (though very difficult) to walk out from under the umbrella of His blood, Each believer's righteousness will not be guaranteed until He or she is resurrected. For # 4 then, I would have to say, at the rapture...that is pretrib rapture. (Just had to add that!)

iamlamad said:

Why don't you give us your answers first. I promise, I will answer when I see your answers.
You see, these are tough questions. I may need some help.

One thing for sure, "everlasting righteousness" is for every believer in Jesus Christ. He gives His righteousness to every believer. However, since I believe it is possible (though very difficult) to walk out from under the umbrella of His blood, Each believer's righteousness will not be guaranteed until He or she is resurrected. For # 4 then, I would have to say, at the rapture...that is pretrib rapture. (Just had to add that!)

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Daniel 9:24 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

It is these six things alone that are clearly and deliberately predicted (in Daniel 9) to occur within the 70 weeks – thus “seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to…” Therefore, for one to apply this plain Messianic prophecy to anti-Christ (as Pretribbers do) could justifiably warrant the unenviable charge of peddling with full-blown apostasy. After all, applying something to anti-Christ, which evidently relates alone to the Savior, is gross error.

All these predictions were perfectly fulfilled in the person of Christ and in His wonderful earthly ministry. He spent 3 ½ years fulfilling every expectation that the Father demanded, from His arrival on the public scene (and His heavenly vindication from the Father after He was baptised) to His atoning death and His victorious resurrection for the grave. All of these predictions have been met in one man – the man Christ Jesus.

How could anti-Christ or any other mere mortal fulfil all or even one of these awesome Divine demands, such an idea is total blasphemy.

Daniel 9:25-26a says, “Know therefore and understand, that from (1) the going forth of the commandment to (2) restore and to build Jerusalem unto (3) the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

In the previous verse we have the total duration described as 70 weeks or 490 years. In verse 25 these 70 weeks are split into 3 parts, albeit the last week is still not yet specifically described:

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Whilst, the last week is still not fully described we will look at the overall outline at this juncture for a blueprint.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must answer is, is there any division between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical NO!

Then, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7 year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.

The text does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 things elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.

The overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary. And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practising of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

sovereigngrace said:

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. No, it is a picture of Paul's pretrib rapture. Paul ties the rapture to the Day of the Lord, and we can easily tell that the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal.

What you are missing:
Don't feel bad, for most students of Revelation miss this:
WHEN is the BOOK opened?
What is IN the book?

Notice that the book is described in chapters 5 & 6, and 8, but after the 7th seal is opened the BOOK is opened. Not, John did not write: "now the book is opened." He and the Holy Spirit expect the readers to understand that this EXTREMELY important book is open as soon as all 7 seals are opened. Therefore, what is written after the 7th seal is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK.

Just for teasers, one very important thing written inside the book is HOW and WHEN Satan loses the kingdoms of the world he has held now for 6000 years, and these kingdoms are given to the Christ.

Why am I writing this? Why is this important? You see, may posttribbers, to solve some of their scriptural problems just MOVE the 6th seal to the end, to coincide with the 7th vial that ends the week. When one understands the mail purpose of the seals is to seal the book, then one discovers it is IMPOSSIBLE to move the 6th seal anywhere.

Therefore a good bible student is forced to accept the truth that the Day of the Lord begins before the entire 70th week. A good bible student knows that the rapture is tied to the Day of the Lord by Paul Himself. Therefore, the rapture MUST BE and IS pretrib. There is simply no way for a good student of the bible to come to any other conclusion.

The book of Revelation then is PROOF of a pretrib rapture.

Next, most students of Revelation cannot pinpoint WHERE in Revelation the "trib" or 70th week is. This was the first thing God sent me to find when He pushed me into Revelation.

Just so you CAN know, if you choose to know:
The 7th seal begins the 70th week
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint
The 7th vial ends the week.

The 70th week then, in Revelation goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - while the rapture will take place between the 5th and 6th seals.

iamlamad said:

This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. No, it is a picture of Paul's pretrib rapture. Paul ties the rapture to the Day of the Lord, and we can easily tell that the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal.

What you are missing:
Don't feel bad, for most students of Revelation miss this:
WHEN is the BOOK opened?
What is IN the book?

Notice that the book is described in chapters 5 & 6, and 8, but after the 7th seal is opened the BOOK is opened. Not, John did not write: "now the book is opened." He and the Holy Spirit expect the readers to understand that this EXTREMELY important book is open as soon as all 7 seals are opened. Therefore, what is written after the 7th seal is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK.

Just for teasers, one very important thing written inside the book is HOW and WHEN Satan loses the kingdoms of the world he has held now for 6000 years, and these kingdoms are given to the Christ.

Why am I writing this? Why is this important? You see, may posttribbers, to solve some of their scriptural problems just MOVE the 6th seal to the end, to coincide with the 7th vial that ends the week. When one understands the mail purpose of the seals is to seal the book, then one discovers it is IMPOSSIBLE to move the 6th seal anywhere.

Therefore a good bible student is forced to accept the truth that the Day of the Lord begins before the entire 70th week. A good bible student knows that the rapture is tied to the Day of the Lord by Paul Himself. Therefore, the rapture MUST BE and IS pretrib. There is simply no way for a good student of the bible to come to any other conclusion.

The book of Revelation then is PROOF of a pretrib rapture.

Next, most students of Revelation cannot pinpoint WHERE in Revelation the "trib" or 70th week is. This was the first thing God sent me to find when He pushed me into Revelation.

Just so you CAN know, if you choose to know:
The 7th seal begins the 70th week
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint
The 7th vial ends the week.

The 70th week then, in Revelation goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - while the rapture will take place between the 5th and 6th seals.

Click to expand...

Until you take your Premil glasses off, you will never see what the inspired text is actually saying. It prevents you seeing the 7 recaps in Revelation. It causes you to advance beliefs that you are unable to find in the Bible. I prefer what the sacred text says! I refer you back to my last post that totally refutes/forbids your Pretrib belief.