Freedoms, libertarianism versus the Bible

SkyWriting

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versus God's permissive will."

The concept fails examination.

God plans and executes the spin of each electron in the Cosmos for every second of existence. Our future is already in God's memory.


Psalm 147
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Psalm 147
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 139
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...
 
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createdtoworship

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Yes but as for the logical case of hell this is not the place for that, I have a perfectly logical and moral case for unending torment here:
Eternal Hell Justified (part 2)

I believe that is what you were referring to in your post, if not let me know

(as far as the links I don't typically read links or follow websites, but again evil in the world is not caused by God but caused by the fall of man). the garden of eden was perfect without evil until man sinned.
 
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createdtoworship

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The concept fails examination.

God plans and executes the spin of each electron in the Cosmos for every second of existence. Our future is already in God's memory.


Psalm 147
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

1 Chronicles 28:9
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Psalm 147
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Psalm 139
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...
well I can see you don't believe in hell in general so I am not sure your interpretation of these verses is correct. But God for sure is not evil as that is a condradiction between most of the Bible and the fact God is love and good. So I am unsure why you would think God would be behind evil dictators. Again God allowed pharoah to enslave hebrews for hundreds of years, but eventually God allowed pharoahs head to come upon him with the slow death of his entire legacy. (as far as providing verses regarding the permissive will and pefect will of God a simple google search should suffice, if you can't find it let me know)
 
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SkyWriting

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well I can see you don't believe in hell in general so I am not sure your interpretation of these verses is correct.

My interpretation is of no importance.
And my view of hell is not relevant or important.
 
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stevevw

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Freedom. It's nice to be free isn't it? In some aspects we are free, not in other aspects. But freedom is not something God gives necessarily speaking.....here is why. Most freedoms cost an opposing party a loss of freedom. For example a homosexuals right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them. So when you have children you realize that one kid wants Pepsi and the other coke. In giving one freedom you are denying the other. So some freedoms are biblical but most if not all freedom in the Bible is not what you would think. Do you have a freedom not to die? No everyone dies, how about a freedom not to be tortured in hell? No. We canot gain that freedom through conventional means. Do you have the freedom to peaceably assemble? In china they assemble in underground churches. All freedoms at least freedoms that have been biblically promised have to do with Christ....see this link: 4 Things the Bible Says About Freedom

So what I am saying is God never promised freedom. Freedom to buy land, freedom to not work for a living. Land is God's technically, the government does not own the dirt, God does. Freedom to not be a slave of culture. Libertarianism is all about the freedoms of all. But the problem is is that God Himself does not give universal freedom. Some freedom He wants US to work for, to fight for, to pray for. Again freedom starts literally with Christ. Being free from sin allows one to have the liberty to be free from slavery, or indebtedness or health problems, or financial problems, or doubts or worries. Freedom is not guaranteed ACCEPT freedom from sin. But that freedom is probably the hardest thing you will ever do. Fighting for liberty from addiction is the hardest thing you will ever do. but it is the most rewarding.
You are right in that true freedom is in Christ. When you say freedom from addiction there was a saying that AA & NA had "you have to throw the towel in to win". So rather than trying to beat and control addiction yourself you had to let go and let God or a higher power help you. It is a paradox that true freedom comes not by having control of things to do what you want but by giving over that control to God who then frees you from all those things that bind you to your addiction. This same principle applies to everyone and to life in general.

When secular society claims that we are a free society I think this is not true. It seems when we let humans run things we end up with more and more rules, regulations and laws to ensure we do the right thing and keep order. This becomes a complicated mess of do's and don'ts and we end up binding ourselves up. Governments, big corporations and generally modern life are the slave masters. Money becomes a master and people get bound to the system and in debt for life. It reminds me of a couple of bible verses

James 4: 13-14

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business, and make a profit.” You do not even know what will happen tomorrow! What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

Matthew 6:25-27 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?”

Matthew 6: 31-33
“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
 
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createdtoworship

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You are right in that true freedom is in Christ. When you say freedom from addiction there was a saying that AA & NA had "you have to throw the towel in to win". So rather than trying to beat and control addiction yourself you had to let go and let God or a higher power help you. It is a paradox that true freedom comes not by having control of things to do what you want but by giving over that control to God who then frees you from all those things that bind you to your addiction. This same principle applies to everyone and to life in general.

When secular society claims that we are a free society I think this is not true. It seems when we let humans run things we end up with more and more rules, regulations and laws to ensure we do the right thing and keep order. This becomes a complicated mess of do's and don'ts and we end up binding ourselves up. Governments, big corporations and generally modern life are the slave masters. Money becomes a master and people get bound to the system and in debt for life. It reminds me of a couple of bible verses

James 4: 13-14

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business, and make a profit.” You do not even know what will happen tomorrow! What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

Matthew 6:25-27 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?”

Matthew 6: 31-33
“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
amen brother thanks for sharing a wonderful and thoughtful post. That was my desire with this thread, to speak of the power of the cross to overcome addiction. But usually my threads end in debate, then get closed for ad hominems because people don't understand how to debate politely. I am blunt but I am always polite in my bluntness. But thanks for reminding me of the purpose behind this thread. The power of the cross over sin. I didn't know that about AA, that's pretty awesome.
 
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stevevw

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amen brother thanks for sharing a wonderful and thoughtful post. That was my desire with this thread, to speak of the power of the cross to overcome addiction. But usually my threads end in debate, then get closed for ad hominems because people don't understand how to debate politely. I am blunt but I am always polite in my bluntness. But thanks for reminding me of the purpose behind this thread. The power of the cross over sin. I didn't know that about AA, that's pretty awesome.
Yeah step 1 is admitting that you have a problem and you are powerless to beat it. A bit like admitting you are a sinner. Step 2 is coming to believe that a Power greater than yourself can help sort things out. A bit like getting to that point in life where you throw in the towel and accept help from someone or something else.

Step 3 is to turn your life over to that Power which for many is the Christian God but can be a god of your own understanding or even the AA or NA group. That sets a person up for doing the rest of the steps which are about changing the person and making amends. These principles can be applied to life and I see them as similar to doing Gods will and not self will. Ironically it gives a person the power over destructive behaviour similar to the power over sin.

The Twelve Steps of AA – Alcoholics Anonymous
 
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