Freedoms, libertarianism versus the Bible

[createdtoworship]

Freedom. It's nice to be free isn't it? In some aspects we are free, not in other aspects. But freedom is not something God gives necessarily speaking.....here is why. Most freedoms cost an opposing party a loss of freedom. For example a homosexuals right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them. So when you have children you realize that one kid wants Pepsi and the other coke. In giving one freedom you are denying the other. So some freedoms are biblical but most if not all freedom in the Bible is not what you would think. Do you have a freedom not to die? No everyone dies, how about a freedom not to be tortured in hell? No. We canot gain that freedom through conventional means. Do you have the freedom to peaceably assemble? In china they assemble in underground churches. All freedoms at least freedoms that have been biblically promised have to do with Christ....see this link: 4 Things the Bible Says About Freedom

So what I am saying is God never promised freedom. Freedom to buy land, freedom to not work for a living. Land is God's technically, the government does not own the dirt, God does. Freedom to not be a slave of culture. Libertarianism is all about the freedoms of all. But the problem is is that God Himself does not give universal freedom. Some freedom He wants US to work for, to fight for, to pray for. Again freedom starts literally with Christ. Being free from sin allows one to have the liberty to be free from slavery, or indebtedness or health problems, or financial problems, or doubts or worries. Freedom is not guaranteed ACCEPT freedom from sin. But that freedom is probably the hardest thing you will ever do. Fighting for liberty from addiction is the hardest thing you will ever do. but it is the most rewarding.

 

[Strathos]

Most freedoms cost an opposing party a loss of freedom. For example a homosexuals right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them.

Since when were pastors compelled by the law to marry a couple that they don't want to? Just because two people can legally marry doesn't mean they can force a church to conduct the ceremony.

 

[Credos4Christ]

I'd contest the notion that God didn't grant humans freedom. In fact, I'd say human freedom, in the sense of free will, is the distinguish trait of humans. Humans are rational beings. They're thinkers. Animals are not. They're amoral and they simply abide what their natural inclinations are. But humans are granted free will, and they are accountable for their decision to use or misuse it (Sir. 15:11-20).

The problem, though, is freedom's fundamentally properties. Are they limited? Are they mutable? I'd suggest, personally, that freedom is in many ways limited—as it should be. For instance, a parent snatching their child away from oncoming traffic is a pretty good example of an exercise of force which impedes on another person's freedom. Freedom's limitations, therefore, are often found in places where the limitation of freedom protects a person or promotes justice.

To the latter point, we may murder murderers (Gen. 9:6) or, in today's world, jail kidnappers or fine thieves. There are proportionate responses to the loss of human freedom which further limits human freedom. All humans are created with dignity in the image of God. But once someone has taken the life of another, for instance, or has defied a commandment of God in a particularly egregious way, they've forfeited their dignity and also ipso facto forfeit their freedom.

An interesting discussion on this topic in the context of capital punishment featuring Dr. Ed Feser can be found here.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'd contest the notion that God didn't grant humans freedom. In fact, I'd say human freedom, in the sense of free will, is the distinguish trait of humans. Humans are rational beings. They're thinkers. Animals are not. They're amoral and they simply abide what their natural inclinations are. But humans are granted free will, and they are accountable for their decision to use or misuse it (Sir. 15:11-20).

The problem, though, is freedom's fundamentally properties. Are they limited? Are they mutable? I'd suggest, personally, that freedom is in many ways limited—as it should be. For instance, a parent snatching their child away from oncoming traffic is a pretty good example of an exercise of force which impedes on another person's freedom. Freedom's limitations, therefore, are often found in places where the limitation of freedom protects a person or promotes justice.

To the latter point, we may murder murderers (Gen. 9:6) or, in today's world, jail kidnappers or fine thieves. There are proportionate responses to the loss of human freedom which further limits human freedom. All humans are created with dignity in the image of God. But once someone has taken the life of another, for instance, or has defied a commandment of God in a particularly egregious way, they've forfeited their dignity and also ipso facto forfeit their freedom.

An interesting discussion on this topic in the context of capital punishment featuring Dr. Ed Feser can be found here.

well free will is a freedom yes. But I am talking about more conventional freedoms. Free will, freedom over sin, yes these things are biblically promised. But 99% of freedoms we have are not biblically mandated.

 

[createdtoworship]

To the latter point, we may murder murderers (Gen. 9:6) or, in today's world, jail kidnappers or fine thieves. There are proportionate responses to the loss of human freedom which further limits human freedom. All humans are created with dignity in the image of God. But once someone has taken the life of another, for instance, or has defied a commandment of God in a particularly egregious way, they've forfeited their dignity and also ipso facto forfeit their freedom.

An interesting discussion on this topic in the context of capital punishment featuring Dr. Ed Feser can be found here.

murder is not a sin because it removes freedom of life, it's a sin because it's a lack of love for one's enemies.

 

[Tanj]

For example a homosexuals right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them.

No it doesn't. No country with homosexual marriage forces any religious figure to perform their religious ceremony.

So when you have children you realize that one kid wants Pepsi and the other coke. In giving one freedom you are denying the other.

Or you could just buy one of them pepsi, and the other one coke.

biblestuff.

Not my area.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Freedom. It's nice to be free isn't it? In some aspects we are free, not in other aspects. But freedom is not something God gives necessarily speaking.....here is why. Most freedoms cost an opposing party a loss of freedom. For example a homosexuals right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them. So when you have children you realize that one kid wants Pepsi and the other coke. In giving one freedom you are denying the other. So some freedoms are biblical but most if not all freedom in the Bible is not what you would think. Do you have a freedom not to die? No everyone dies, how about a freedom not to be tortured in hell? No. We canot gain that freedom through conventional means. Do you have the freedom to peaceably assemble? In china they assemble in underground churches. All freedoms at least freedoms that have been biblically promised have to do with Christ....see this link: 4 Things the Bible Says About Freedom

So what I am saying is God never promised freedom. Freedom to buy land, freedom to not work for a living. Land is God technically, the government does not own the dirt, God does. Freedom to not be a slave of culture. Libertarianism is all about the freedoms of all. But the problem is is that God Himself does not give universal freedom. Some freedom He wants US to work for, to fight for, to pray for. Again freedom starts literally with Christ. Being free from sin allows one to have the liberty to be free from slavery, or indebtedness or health problems, or financial problems, or doubts or worries. Freedom is not guaranteed ACCEPT freedom from sin. But that freedom is probably the hardest thing you will ever do. Fighting for liberty from addiction is the hardest thing you will ever do. but it is the most rewarding.

Liberalism is not freedom. It is still bondage to sin. The only freedom is in Christ, who sets us free not to sin but to follow and trust in Him for our salvation and our future. In Christ we are free to reflect love, joy, peace, goodness, gentleness, kindness, patience, faithfulness, and self control. Liberalism denies Christ, and keeps people in bondage to the works of the flesh. They think they are free to do as they please, but share the gospel of Christ with them and encourage them to repent of the their sins and receive Him as Saviour and Lord, and you will find that they cannot. They will argue against the gospel, because they are imprisoned within their sinfulness. Therefore their freedom is a fraud.

 

[Soyeong]

Freedom. It's nice to be free isn't it? In some aspects we are free, not in other aspects. But freedom is not something God gives necessarily speaking.....here is why. Most freedoms cost an opposing party a loss of freedom. For example a homosexuals right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them. So when you have children you realize that one kid wants Pepsi and the other coke. In giving one freedom you are denying the other. So some freedoms are biblical but most if not all freedom in the Bible is not what you would think. Do you have a freedom not to die? No everyone dies, how about a freedom not to be tortured in hell? No. We canot gain that freedom through conventional means. Do you have the freedom to peaceably assemble? In china they assemble in underground churches. All freedoms at least freedoms that have been biblically promised have to do with Christ....see this link: 4 Things the Bible Says About Freedom

So what I am saying is God never promised freedom. Freedom to buy land, freedom to not work for a living. Land is God technically, the government does not own the dirt, God does. Freedom to not be a slave of culture. Libertarianism is all about the freedoms of all. But the problem is is that God Himself does not give universal freedom. Some freedom He wants US to work for, to fight for, to pray for. Again freedom starts literally with Christ. Being free from sin allows one to have the liberty to be free from slavery, or indebtedness or health problems, or financial problems, or doubts or worries. Freedom is not guaranteed ACCEPT freedom from sin. But that freedom is probably the hardest thing you will ever do. Fighting for liberty from addiction is the hardest thing you will ever do. but it is the most rewarding.

The reason why the land of the free is not also the land where there are no laws is because we can use our freedoms to hinder the freedoms of others, so true freedom is not the freedom to do whatever we want, but the freedom to do what we ought. Good legislatures do not create laws with the goal of limiting our freedoms, but with the goal of enhancing them, and no one knows better than God in His infinite wisdom how we ought to live, which is why the Mosaic Law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45), while it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage (John 8:31-36). God is trustworthy, so His law therefore is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so we must be like violins who trust God to tie down our strings in order to make music.

 

[createdtoworship]

The reason why the land of the free is not also the land where there are no laws is because we can use our freedoms to hinder the freedoms of others, so true freedom is not the freedom to do whatever we want, but the freedom to do what we ought. Good legislatures do not create laws with the goal of limiting our freedoms, but with the goal of enhancing them, and no one knows better than God in His infinite wisdom how we ought to live, which is why the Mosaic Law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45), while it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage (John 8:31-36). God is trustworthy, so His law therefore is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so we must be like violins who trust God to tie down our strings in order to make music.

I was thinking of this earlier, sacrifice releases power, it's not about freedom but about discipline. Discipline always is a lack of freedom. But it yields fruitful results. Freedom isn't all what it's cut out to be. One can have perfect political freedom yet be addicted to sin, and they can't enjoy their freedom.

 

[createdtoworship]

Since when were pastors compelled by the law to marry a couple that they don't want to? Just because two people can legally marry doesn't mean they can force a church to conduct the ceremony.

sir you have no clue about all the lawsuits do you. Oh yes homosexuals are suing pastors that refuse to marry them and winning about 80% of the time. It's not just pastors, but photographers, and wedding cake bakers. They have all had their freedom to NOT support the marriage, removed.

 

[createdtoworship]

If obedience to Christ comes from religious duty, and not from a heart overflowing with the Father's love then we will never be free ...

 

[pleinmont]

There is much in the Bible which is right or good, imo.

 

[createdtoworship]

There is much in the Bible which is right or good, imo.

oh yeah, it can be good but not be an inherent 'right.' Loving one's family is good, but it's not really a right. Taking care of the homeless is good, sharing is good, being kind. All that stuff is good. But they are not promised that someone will love us, or share with us, or be nice to us. Those are not promises that God makes. But He does promise that He himself will love us, share with us of eternal blessing, and be a friend, or father to us....whichever we may need at the time.

 

[pleinmont]

oh yeah, it can be good but not be an inherent 'right.' Loving one's family is good, but it's not really a right. Taking care of the homeless is good, sharing is good, being kind. All that stuff is good. But they are not promised that someone will love us, or share with us, or be nice to us. Those are not promises that God makes. But He does promise that He himself will love us, share with us of eternal blessing, and be a friend, or father to us....whichever we may need at the time.

That was a TYPO I meant to say there is much in the Bible which ISN'T good or right. Jesus was far from perfect, just like the rest of us, he certainly isn't worth worshipping.

 

[createdtoworship]

That was a TYPO I meant to say there is much in the Bible which ISN'T good or right. Jesus was far from perfect, just like the rest of us, he certainly isn't worth worshipping.

I cannot debate Christs divinity here, but I acknowledge your right to view and express your opinions about the Bible, I just happen to disagree with them.

 

[Strathos]

sir you have no clue about all the lawsuits do you. Oh yes homosexuals are suing pastors that refuse to marry them and winning about 80% of the time. It's not just pastors, but photographers, and wedding cake bakers. They have all had their freedom to NOT support the marriage, removed.

That's not true at all. No one is forcing churches to marry any couples they don't wish to. In fact the Supreme Court ruled that such a thing is unconstitutional. Claiming otherwise is nothing but ignorant fearmongering.

 

[SkyWriting]

Freedom. It's nice to be free isn't it? In some aspects we are free, not in other aspects...right to marry removes a pastors rights to NOT marry them.

Marriage ceremonies are voluntary and not legally required.

 

[createdtoworship]

That's not true at all. No one is forcing churches to marry any couples they don't wish to. In fact the Supreme Court ruled that such a thing is unconstitutional. Claiming otherwise is nothing but ignorant fearmongering.

again you have no clue about the lawsuits. Thats ok. Just look it up.

 

[SkyWriting]

Do you have a freedom not to die? Not everyone dies, how about a freedom not to be tortured in hell?

Everyone dies and has the right to refuse God, resulting in Hell. (Current, active tense in scripture.)

 

[SkyWriting]

Fighting for liberty from addiction is the hardest thing you will ever do. but it is the most rewarding.

Addiction is the solution to unrealized pain that needs to be worked though.
It's a poor solution, but the remedy is to pivot to a better solution for the pain.

Addiction is not a disease, it's a bad solution to hide an unrecognised pain.