Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

Bible Highlighter said:

Problem is that nobody repented hearing Kione Greek.

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Seriously? I assure you many thousands of people repented hearing Koine Greek in the early church!

People are just guessing at best as to what Kione Greek means and they do not have a 100% certainty on this language because they did not grow up and speak and write such a language as a part of their culture and life. It is a dead language and guessing based on what our English translation says is the best course of getting close to what the Greek says because our New Testament portion of our bible we have today was translated from Kione Greek. In fact, every spiritual matter in the Bible should be defended by the use of the Bible, and the Scriptures do not prophetically speak of how we need to go back to the older and more purer language in order to understand God's Word better. On the contrary, God's Word said it would be preserved for all generations (See: Psalms 12:6-7).

God preserves His Words with a few men that He feels are chosen for such a task.
Obviously not everyone just naturally is given the Spirit to preserve His holy words perfectly and without error. There are those who try to make such efforts on their own power without God. Of course their efforts are flawed.

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OK. We're done here. You have no clue how Biblical translation even works, and you're now relying on some notion of divinely inspired translators. Next you'll be telling me you only use the KJV because if it's good enough for the Apostle Paul it's good enough for you! Talk about your Flat Earth conspiracy theorists! LOL

Bible Highlighter said:

We need both God's grace, and Sanctification for salvation.
Both God's grace, and Sanctification are CONDITIONAL.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God forces us to believe or forces us to live holy. If God forced us to believe, and forced us to live holy, then humanity would not be in the sinful mess that it is in now.

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This is complete nonsense and piffle...

Since when is a free gift CONDITIONAL !!!!!!!!!!!

Clever theology that denies the beauty of what God has done for us in Christ on the Cross.

How about the Good news.

Eternal life is eternal life and nothing can seperate us from the Love of Jesus.

Rejoice in your salvation and do not be ever wondering if you might somehow lose it.

This is nuts and arrogant to suggest that what Jesus did for us was somehow not good enough to sustain our salvation.

Readers... do not be captive to ungodly fear, there is no fear in love.

His Holy fear however is a friend that prevents us from denying Him.

The Joy of the Lord is our strength.

Being worried about losing your salvation will kill joy and drain your strength.

Hold onto the GOOD NEWS in Jesus.

Dont be robbed of your joy and peace by clever envoys of ungodly fear.

I will never allow our beautiful relationship with Jesus to be threatened in this way.

The Love of Christ constrains us, we need not succumb to ungodly fear to stay safe in Him.

frumanchu said:

Seriously? I assure you many thousands of people repented hearing Koine Greek in the early church!

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I was not referring to the early church, but to the people of today. Nobody today speaks and writes Kione Greek in the same way like they did back in the early church. That's kind of the point.

You said:

OK. We're done here. You have no clue how Biblical translation even works, and you're now relying on some notion of divinely inspired translators. Next you'll be telling me you only use the KJV because if it's good enough for the Apostle Paul it's good enough for you! Talk about your Flat Earth conspiracy theorists! LOL

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Well, that is just a baseless accusation. I don't believe Paul used the KJV. That is just an ad hominem. I was not born again yesterday. I have been a believer since 1992. I have debated on forums using Scripture heavily against Eternal Security and Calvinism since 2010 approximately. Anyways, I do believe the KJV Cambridge Edition (circa 1900) version is the perfect Word of God for our day today, but I believe it is important to use Modern Translations to help update the 1600's English within the KJV. The use of Hebrew and Greek by people can be whatever that person wants it to be. They can just say the word actually means this or that and nobody would be the wiser because nobody today actually speaks and writes these languages as a part of a real culture anymore. But if we use the English in our Bibles, you cannot fudge the English language to say whatever you want it to say to defend a belief you prefer to see. We know what English says. No tricks or gimmicks. Just read it and believe it.

frumanchu said:

Like the Pharisees, you would go to great lengths to make a convert and then leave them twice the child of hell. Simul justus et peccator. We are justified by faith, we are sanctified in the Spirit but it is an ongoing process that does not meet its perfection until our glorification in Heaven. To make this claim that the regenerate cannot sin is to completely ignore the reality of the justification/sanctification different.

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You have it backwards.
How does one advocating for obedience to God create those destined for hell?
Isn't it those who advocate a false righteousness who are the ones creating a sect destined for hell?

Nope. What I propose is salvation apart from the Law (that is, our keeping of it). We are justified on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Period. He fulfilled the Law on our behalf because WE CANNOT DO IT.

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We CAN do it "in Christ".

Simply not true. I propose what the Gospel assures us of: forgiveness by His death and justification by His righteousness. My works are not to earn or secure my salvation; they are the good and perfect service to Him whose grace was poured out upon me. I pursue righteousness out of love for Him, not out of fear of Him. I truly pity those who pursue it because of the latter, for they know not the richness of the Gospel of Christ.

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My "works"-obedience are because of what Jesus did, not to secure it.

And perfectly righteous? One would deceive himself to think so, and if he relied upon it for his salvation he would trample the Gospel underfoot.

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Wait a minute...What happened to the imputed righteousness we were discussing?
Are you now saying it can't be manifested?
Are you "outlawing" the righteousness of our divine nature in Christ?

Nope. Completely wrong and dangerously unbiblical.

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The blood of Christ doesn't provide our justification and sanctification?
1 Cor 6:11 says it does..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

But do it PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUSLY OR ELSE!!!
That's not good news. That's the deadly legalism of the Pharisees.

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It is good news if your one and only heartfelt desire is to love God above all else.
Of course if one's motive is something else...

What a pity that you should bind men to believe that they must be perfectly righteous to lay hold of their salvation. "SIN NOT lest you show your faith to be less than acceptable!"

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It is written..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
I'll go with Paul on this one.

That is not the Gospel of Christ. We are justified by faith, reckoned righteous by the imputation of His perfect fulfillment of the Law. Having been declared righteous in His sight, we are progressively sanctified by the Spirit. Being freed from slavery to sin, and with the Spirit working within us, we put to death the things of the flesh and grow in grace, doing those good works He prepared for us beforehand to walk in.

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Show me from the bible where anything is "progressive", please.

We are not perfectly sinless in this life. To say otherwise, particularly with the claim that our salvation is at risk in our imperfection, is not the Gospel.

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If by "this life" you mean in the flesh...I agree.
But if you mean in our reborn life, the life we have after the death of the old man...you are dead wrong.
It is written..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
I was killed at my immersion into Christ at His death. (Rom 6:3-6)

Carl Emerson said:

This is complete nonsense and piffle...

Since when is a free gift CONDITIONAL !!!!!!!!!!!

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I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

You said:

Clever theology that denies the beauty of what God has done for us in Christ on the Cross.

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My Theology is derived from God's Word. But by what you described so far: It sounds like the version of grace you describe is the kind of grace that is a license for immorality or a safety net to sin on some level; Thus, this kind of grace is not beautiful. God would have to agree with such a plan of salvation that justifies sin and that is not possible because God is good. God cannot willfully agree with a human mindset to do wrong and yet they can also receive good benefits in return (despite that). God is good. God is holy. God cannot agree with willful sin. For Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

You said:

How about the Good news.

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It's not your version of how you think the good news should work. The gospel is believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

You said:

Eternal life is eternal life and nothing can seperate us from the Love of Jesus.

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Eternal life is not a superpower. Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Jesus is the life (John 14:6). It's not granted to us like a magic wish from a genie. We have to abide in Christ in order to have eternal life (See: 1 John 5:12). The way we can have an assurance that we know the Lord Jesus is if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

As for Romans 8:38-39:
If this was the only passage in the Bible, then you might be on to something.
But it is not. Besides, Romans 8:38-39 does not mention the words, "you" or "your sin" within that list of things that cannot separate you from the love of God. Only external things are mentioned within that list and not internal things.

You said:

Rejoice in your salvation and do not be ever wondering if you might somehow lose it.

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I cannot unlearn what I know. I know better. There are like a couple of pages I could write non-stop full of verses that show how what you believe is simply not true according to Scripture. The Bible teaches we can fall away, sin can destroy our souls, and it teaches how we need to endure to the end, and be holy, etc.

This is nuts and arrogant to suggest that what Jesus did for us was somehow not good enough to sustain our salvation.

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It's not how God's plan of salvation works. Yes, we are saved by God's grace. That is one aspect of God's plan of salvation. God also works through us in the Sanctification Process. We cannot take credit for this alone because God works through us to save us as we cooperate with God when we surrender to Him. The same is true with grace. So God ultimately gets the glory in both being saved by God's grace and in Sanctification. So how is surrendering to God's will or plan of salvation being arrogant?

You said:

Readers... do not be captive to ungodly fear, there is no fear in love.

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Godly fear is seeking forgiveness over one's sins and forsaking them because of God's wrath. That is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge. 1 John 2:5 says we can perfect love by keeping His Word. So by keeping His Word, we cast out fear.

You said:

His Holy fear however is a friend that prevents us from denying Him.

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Fear does not make any sense in your belief.

You said:

The Joy of the Lord is our strength.

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David sought forgiveness with the Lord in order to get back the joy of his salvation. Yeah, before you say it, you think there is two different kinds of salvation. One with joy and one without. That is not what David was talking about. He just wanted to have his salvation back by receiving God's forgiveness.

You said:

Being worried about losing your salvation will kill joy and drain your strength.

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I have been doing fine believing the way I do for the past 10 years.
Believers can confess and forsake sin to have mercy.

You said:

Hold onto the GOOD NEWS in Jesus.

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Sorry. I don't accept your version of the good news.
For me: It sounds like bad news.

You said:

Dont be robbed of your joy and peace by clever envoys of ungodly fear.

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Again, I don't have problems. Your imagining things.

You said:

I will never allow our beautiful relationship with Jesus to be threatened in this way.

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I prefer to stick to the truth of what the Bible says about sin and salvation. Jesus warned many times about how sin can destroy our souls. You are free to ignore that if you like.

Ez 36
25 I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.…

Jer 32
39I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will never turn away from Me. 41Yes, I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.

Jer 30
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Above are three prophesies that were fulfilled in Christ who promised the Comforter would indwell us.

This was not just for the Jews, as the promise of the Land was given to Abraham way before Moses and the Jewish people were born.
Abraham is the Father of all who have faith and according to Galatians 3 we are inheriting these promises through him.

So the promise of the indwelling Spirit is for Jew and Gentile alike under this new covenant as predicted and the early church was the first to receive it.

This includes the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord which seals our salvation forever.

So rejoice in your permanent salvation having the Awesome Fear of Him a your friend that keeps you from falling.

HALLELUJAH.

I strongly refuse the lie that believing in God's grace somehow associates me with promoting sinfulness. Anyone with a genuine love relationship with Jesus will have a hatred for sin - it comes with the package - we don't have to legislate it - that is legalism.

Walking in righteousness is a product of a heart that loves Jesus.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day,


Professor Bruce Ware addresses the question:

In Him,.


Bill

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Yes. It threatens your salvation.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Carl Emerson said:

I strongly refuse the lie that believing in God's grace somehow associates me with promoting sinfulness. Anyone with a genuine love relationship with Jesus will have a hatred for sin - it comes with the package - we don't have to legislate it - that is legalism.

Walking in righteousness is a product of a heart that loves Jesus.

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Walking in darkness is a product of a heart that doesn't love Jesus.
Pro 4:19 says..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:"
Darkness is sin.

BBAS 64 said:

Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

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No, but your salvation threatens your willful sinning.

Carl Emerson said:

I strongly refuse the lie that believing in God's grace somehow associates me with promoting sinfulness. Anyone with a genuine love relationship with Jesus will have a hatred for sin - it comes with the package - we don't have to legislate it - that is legalism.

Walking in righteousness is a product of a heart that loves Jesus.

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A hatred of sin is not the same as putting away sin. There are many bad criminals out there in whom I am sure they are disgusted by what they do, but that does not make what they continue to do any better morally speaking. One cannot walk in righteousness if one is also thinking that God's grace is a safety net to sin on some level. The goal of God's grace is to overcome grievous sin and not to treat sin as if it was something minor to God. God is holy, and He cannot agree with a person's mindset to continue in serious sins (that He condemns in His Word even just a little bit) as a way of life. Sure, many Eternal Security Christians believe they will not murder, rape, and abuse children, but they do not believe they will overcome other sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). Do not misunderstand me. Most all sins (generally speaking) are forgivable but we need to overcome by God's grace. We can do this by confessing and forsaking sin and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection and casting down imaginations and leading every thought captive to Jesus Christ. David essentially said that he hid God's Word within him so that he may not sin against God (See: Psalms 119:11). Paul tells us to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness in the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). In your belief, there is no such thing as the fear of God. The word "fear" has to be changed to mean something else. Even Philippians 2:12 says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Of course, I am sure those who believe as you do will try to seek another answer beyond what this verse plainly says because they don't like what it says plainly; But it wouldn't be the plain truth, though.

I like the admittance of Brother Ware's belief concerning the permanence of faith and salvation, but I think we can miss the primary sense of the passage (Heb 10:26) at the outset. I believe there is a reason why Paul said "the knowledge of the truth." If he intended to mean "believe" by the word "received" I think he would have just said "received the truth" which is his usual manner of writing and avoids the act of pleonasm. Thus the sense to me here is that Paul means the truth was not received, but that only the knowledge of it was received. This directly parallels Christ's proclamation that if He had not come and "spoke" and "done" that which He said and did, "they would not had sin" (guilt - Jhn 15:22, 24; also 3:19). This is why "the strength of sin is the law," because knowing the will of God incurs guilt if it is not believed upon.

Also, I see the passage (Heb 10:26) in a hypothetical sense ("If we sin willfully") which is similar to his hypothetical usage of Heb 6:6 ("If they shall fall away"). The prior would be contradictory to the 10:38 truism that declares "the just live by faith," which can mean the same as those who live by faith are just, because one is who is made just will manifest faith.

The latter (6:4-6) hypothesis merely expresses that it's impossible to be saved more than once ("renew them again unto repentance") because it would require Christ to be crucified again (v 6), all of which language is not to apply to something actual, i.e. nobody who is truly defined by that which in vs 4, 5 would depart from "the things that accompany salvation" (v 9), who “show diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end” (v 11), as "those who through faith and patience inherit the promises" (v 10).

Phil W said:

Walking in darkness is a product of a heart that doesn't love Jesus.
Pro 4:19 says..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:"
Darkness is sin.

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Yes I agree, but why did you raise this point?

Bible Highlighter said:

In your belief, there is no such thing as the fear of God. The word "fear" has to be changed to mean something else.

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THIS IS A BLATANT LIE AND I MUST STOP YOU FROM TRYING TO PILE YOUR RUBBISH ON MY HEAD AND DECEIVING OTHERS IN THE PROCESS. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME AND YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT MY WALK WITH JESUS ARE OUTRAGEOUS, INACCURATE AND AGAINST FORUM RULES.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes I agree, but why did you raise this point?

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You said..."Walking in righteousness is a product of a heart that loves Jesus."
I supplied the antithesis, to back up your POV.

Carl Emerson said:

THIS IS A BLATANT LIE AND I MUST STOP YOU FROM TRYING TO PILE YOUR RUBBISH ON MY HEAD AND DECEIVING OTHERS IN THE PROCESS. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME AND YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT MY WALK WITH JESUS ARE OUTRAGEOUS, INACCURATE AND AGAINST FORUM RULES.

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It's not against forum rules to have a belief that disagrees with somebody else.

I believe what I believe based on what I hold is true and I am not attempting to suggest something that is not true (even if you disagree).

My belief about what Eternal Security Proponents believe or Sin and Still Be Saved Salvationists is my personal belief and conviction based on not one conversation but many conversations with them over a period of 10 years.

These two kinds of believers have professed that they believe future sin is forgiven them and that no truly saved believer can lose salvation ever. Chastisement is the only real deterrent among them; But this does not threaten their salvation. So what is there to fear?

In fact, I do not see them giving me any examples of chastisement in their own life on this that convinced me that they should fear God (with a loss of salvation). What is there to fear in chastisement? Unbelievers can suffer the same challenges in life that a believer can suffer. We are told not to fear those who can kill the body but we are to fear only the Lord who can destroy us in hell fire (Matthew 10:28). Fear of the Lord only makes sense if we can be punished in hell if we refuse to obey Him. I never get the impression from Eternal Security Proponents or Sin and Still Be Saved Salvationists that their salvation is ever in jeopardy. So we have two different views of what the fear of the Lord means. I see the fear of the Lord as a destruction of my soul. They do not see this as the fear of the Lord. They think it means respect or something or chastisement (Which is not what the real fear of the Lord is). To fear God means God's judgment can come upon a person if they do not turn from their evil ways.

If you believe contrary to what I stated about "fear" in regards to how Eternal Security Proponent views "fear" and or how the Sin and Still Be Saved Salvationist regards the word "fear" above, then by all means, you have my apologies. But you have not given me any impression or indication that you believe differently than them on this word. Please convince me otherwise if you see things differently.

Thank you;
And may God's love shine upon you greatly in all truth today.

Bible Highlighter said:

It's not against forum rules to have a belief that disagrees with somebody else.

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That's not the problem. The problem is that you are presenting HIS belief as something other than what he actually believes.

frumanchu said:

That's not the problem. The problem is that you are presenting HIS belief as something other than what he actually believes.

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If I am misunderstanding his belief, he needs to explain how I am wrong. He said he believes future sin is forgiven him. So then what is there to fear if future sin is forgiven? If one is safe and secure in Jesus and can never lose salvation, then there is no fear of God anymore. This is why I believe he does not hold to the same view of the fear of God that I do. I believe that I can lose my salvation if I turn back and become disobedient, or if I am not careful to guard against the schemes of the enemy. This to me is the true fear of God as described in the Bible. The fear of God is not chastisement. Unbelievers go through the same problems and challenges that believers can go through.

Matthew 10:28 (Weymouth New Testament) says,
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Note: Gehenna is the "Lake of Fire."

Side Note:

If he believes he can lose salvation by being disobedient and this is what he means by fearing God, I will of course apologize. But I did not get that impression by what he said so far.