Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism

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Kylie

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I'm sorry, I was assuming constant acceleration (as under gravity, which was the original comparison).

Clearly, if the rocket stops accelerating, the compression ceases and it will expand a little - assuming perfectly elastic materials, it will return to its pre-acceleration state. But the rocket wouldn't continue squishing when the engines fire again, it would resume squishing, because there is no squishing when the rocket isn't firing :cool:

Sorry, I think we're on different pages here.

When the rocket fires with a constant force, it will accelerate at a constant speed. There will be a force trying to squish the rocket, and this force will indeed squish the rocket. But there's another force, the rigidity of the rocket materials, that resists this squishing. If the rocket is accelerating at a constant speed, the rocket will squish until its rigidity balances it, and the rocket will no longer squish.

Isn't this the same as what happens with gravity?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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When the rocket fires with a constant force, it will accelerate at a constant speed. There will be a force trying to squish the rocket, and this force will indeed squish the rocket. But there's another force, the rigidity of the rocket materials, that resists this squishing. If the rocket is accelerating at a constant speed, the rocket will squish until its rigidity balances it, and the rocket will no longer squish.

Isn't this the same as what happens with gravity?
Yes; but with gravity, the squishing is weaker further away from the centre of mass of the gravitating body in question. That's a difference between gravity and a rocket.
 
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Kylie

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Yes; but with gravity, the squishing is weaker further away from the centre of mass.

So if I measure the force of gravity near the Earth's center of mass and then measure it again far away, then I'll find it is weaker.

And if I measure the acceleration in a rocket near the engine, I'll find it's greater than if I measure the acceleration near the nose cone, since near the nose cone, there's more of the rocket between me and the engine and thus more material to squish and it acts like a shock absorber, right?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So if I measure the force of gravity near the Earth's center of mass and then measure it again far away, then I'll find it is weaker.

And if I measure the acceleration in a rocket near the engine, I'll find it's greater than if I measure the acceleration near the nose cone, since near the nose cone, there's more of the rocket between me and the engine and thus more material to squish and it acts like a shock absorber, right?
I'm not sure what you're after here - I was just describing how, in practice, you can distinguish between being in a gravitational field on Earth and accelerating in a rocket at 1g. The squishing is incidental.

If you stand a very tall rocket on Earth, where the acceleration due to gravity is 1g at the surface, the acceleration due to gravity will be < 1g up at the sharp end. If the same rocket accelerates at 1g in free space, the acceleration will be 1g at the engines and 1g at the sharp end, once things have settled down, which happens very quickly.
 
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Michael

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So if I measure the force of gravity near the Earth's center of mass and then measure it again far away, then I'll find it is weaker.

And if I measure the acceleration in a rocket near the engine, I'll find it's greater than if I measure the acceleration near the nose cone, since near the nose cone, there's more of the rocket between me and the engine and thus more material to squish and it acts like a shock absorber, right?

Actually......

The force of gravity at the very center of the Earth is exactly zero because all the forces from all the mass of the Earth are evenly balanced. As you move outward from the center, the amount of gravity that you experience will depend on the amount of mass inside the sphere between you and center of the Earth and your distance from the center of mass inside the smaller sphere.

The acceleration of the rocket will only be (slightly) different in the nose section *during the compression process* as the material does indeed initially act like a shock absorber for a short period of time. After the compression process is complete however, all the areas of the rocket experience the same amount of acceleration.
 
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sjastro

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The fact that a given model *must* violate the laws of physics in order to get it's predictions to be correct only further undermines the validity of the model IMO.

FYI, since the LCDM model predicts a "flat" (rather than a curved) universe, it's not the geometry of the LCMD model that violates conservation of energy laws based on sjastro's argument, it's the "space expansion" process that requires the LCDM model to abandon those laws of physics, along with the postulation of a form of energy (dark energy) that remains constant throughout that expansion process. The LCMD model ultimately violates the conservation laws of energy not once, but *twice* even *before* discussing Guth's so called "free lunch" inflation process.
Whereas the mathematics I presented in my previous post is well beyond Michael's ability to comprehend, the statement
sjastro said:
This was recognized by Einstein and Hilbert well before the advent of expanding cosmologies such as the Big Bang or Steady State.
should be self evident unless Michael can show this is false.
Otherwise he is engaging in pure self denial.

Using Michael's own definition particle physics must be a train wreck because the conservation of parity which is just as "valid" as any other conservation law is preserved for the strong, electromagnetic forces and gravity but is violated for the weak force.
Parity.jpg
 
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Michael

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Whereas the mathematics I presented in my previous post is well beyond Michael's ability to comprehend,

It's a little ironic, and more than a bit amusing that I had to explain the existence of Beltrami fields/flows to you, and their use in "force free" plasma models for decades if not a full century, and yet you're *still* trying to attack *my* math skills. :) Wow.

the statement
should be self evident unless Michael can show this is false.
Otherwise he is engaging in pure self denial.

Not at all, but then the LCDM model presumes a *flat* universe so "curvature" has absolutely nothing do with the issue of conservation of energy, or lack thereof in the LCMD model.

Using Michael's own definition particle physics must be a train wreck because the conservation of parity which is just as "valid" as any other conservation law is preserved for the strong, electromagnetic forces and gravity but is violated for the weak force.

No, actually it's the LCDM model and it's proponents who assume that the standard particle physics model must be a "train wreck", or at least incomplete.

I personally would just assume that either parity isn't always conserved in the weak force, and such a lack of conservation of parity is somehow ultimately responsible for the fact that there's more matter than antimatter in our visible universe. Or I would assume that it's "conserved" only when matter and antimatter are equal, and we just can't "see" all the antimatter that might exist outside of our visible universe.

Ultimately I believe that all the forces of nature might ultimately be resolved in a theory (of everything) based on electromagnetism, but admittedly I haven't seen one yet that thrills me.

It's kind of silly IMO to "assume" that parity is necessarily always conserved when we have *controlled experimental evidence* to the contrary. On the other hand there is *zero* experimental evidence that energy is not conserved. Notice the key difference when it comes to controlled experimental evidence?
 
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sjastro

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It's a little ironic, and more than a bit amusing that I had to explain the existence of Beltrami fields/flows to you, and their use in "force free" plasma models for decades if not a full century, and yet you're *still* trying to attack *my* math skills. :) Wow.

You are not fooling anyone with this ongoing bluff otherwise show us a demonstration of your maths skills which leads to the conclusion the tensor calculus is wrong and energy is conserved even in static curved spacetime.

Not at all, but then the LCDM model presumes a *flat* universe so "curvature" has absolutely nothing do with the issue of conservation of energy, or lack thereof in the LCMD model.

No, actually it's the LCDM model and it's proponents who assume that the standard particle physics model must be a "train wreck", or at least incomplete.

The maths is based on the status of GR circa 1915.
If you want us to believe you are a profound mathematical genius then why haven’t you pointed out the flaws in Einstein’s and Hilbert’s maths which shows GR is not conserved globally even in static curved spacetime?

In fact you don’t even have to address the tensor calculus which is clearly beyond your level of comprehension as indicated by your bluffing; instead it is far easier to address the historical facts that Einstein and Hilbert were aware energy was not conserved globally nearly a decade before Friedmann came out with the first expanding model of the Universe.

This point alone completely destroys your nonsensical argument unless you can show Einstein and Hilbert were either aware of expanding spacetime in 1915 or they never considered the conservation of energy to be non applicable to static curved spacetime.

Then there is the inconvenient fact that after abandoning a static universe model, Einstein co-developed the Einstein-deSitter model which is an expanding Universe where Einstein according to your own standards violated his own theory.

I personally would just assume that either parity isn't always conserved in the weak force, and such a lack of conservation of parity is somehow ultimately responsible for the fact that there's more matter than antimatter in our visible universe. Or I would assume that it's "conserved" only when matter and antimatter are equal, and we just can't "see" all the antimatter that might exist outside of our visible universe.

Ultimately I believe that all the forces of nature might ultimately be resolved in a theory (of everything) based on electromagnetism, but admittedly I haven't seen one yet that thrills me.

For a self professed mathematical genius this is totally ridiculous; otherwise show how parity P is conserved even if the Universe is 50% matter, 50% antimatter given that CP is still violated.
In fact a mathematical genius like yourself should be familiar with the bra-ket notation of QM and show if P is not violated then neither is CP by demonstrating the eigenstate of the neutral | K° > meson does in fact spontaneously transition into a combination of its particle and antiparticle states
| K° > and | ₭° > respectively according to the transition;
| K° > ↔ | ₭° > ;
instead of existing in a long lived transition state | Kₜ > where CP is violated and;
| Kₜ > = (| K₂ > + ε| Kₗ >)/√(1+ |ε|²)
where | Kₗ > =( | K° > - | ₭° >) /√2 and | K₂ > =( | K° > + | ₭° >) /√2 are the mixed eigenstates for the particle and antiparticle states and ε is the amount of CP violation which is experimentally determined to be ε = 2.3 X 10⁻³.

So get to the task of showing us mere mortals how you are right and QM is wrong.

It's kind of silly IMO to "assume" that parity is necessarily always conserved when we have *controlled experimental evidence* to the contrary. On the other hand there is *zero* experimental evidence that energy is not conserved. Notice the key difference when it comes to controlled experimental evidence?

For a mathematical genius this is totally contradictory.
There is no controlled experimental evidence either to show matter/antimatter in whatever ratio you want is going to tell us whether parity is conserved or not.
 
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Michael

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You are not fooling anyone with this ongoing bluff otherwise show us a demonstration of your maths skills which leads to the conclusion the tensor calculus is wrong and energy is conserved even in static curved spacetime.

Had I made such a suggestion, your request might have merit. Since I didn't, it's a complete strawman. Furthermore, there is zero evidence that the universe that we live in is 'curved'. In fact the LCDM model assumes that it's *flat*, and therefore any subjective choice to violate the conservation of energy laws *in our actual universe* is entirely optional.

The rest of your post is also another obvious example of you burning strawmen of your own creation. Enjoy your bonfire.
 
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sjastro

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Had I made such a suggestion, your request might have merit. Since I didn't, it's a complete strawman. Furthermore, there is zero evidence that the universe that we live in is 'curved'. In fact the LCDM model assumes that it's *flat*, and therefore any subjective choice to violate the conservation of energy laws *in our actual universe* is entirely optional.

The rest of your post is also another obvious example of you burning strawmen of your own creation. Enjoy your bonfire.
Since you have concocted what amounts to a ridiculous conspiracy theory that GR has been bastardized by astronomers so that energy conservation can be violated in LCDM then logically the tensor calculus must be wrong.

Now that you have handwaved this as a non issue the tensor calculus does in fact show the violation of the conservation of energy is an inherent property in GR as I showed in post #78, which is permitted in LCDM and any other expansion model since GR is the relevant gravitational theory in these models.
Furthermore this is consistent with the historical perspective that Einstein and Hilbert came to the conclusion of energy violation years before an expanding Universe was even contemplated!!!

To add to your woes since the flatness of the Universe is based on a postdiction using the measured total energy density as the parameter, the Universe could have been closed which LCDM allows depending on the total energy density.
Since a closed Universe is not flat it also violates the conservation of energy even if static hence one cannot choose to violate the conservation of energy; neither is it an option in LCDM.

The end result of your flippant handwave and false accusations of strawmen is the bonfire has ultimately caused your conspiracy theory go up in smoke.
 
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Michael

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Here is a rather humorous account why energy is not necessarily conserved using Noether's theorem and Lagrangian mechanics instead of tensor calculus as used previously in this thread

It's rather amusing and quite telling that the two examples of energy conservation violations which the individual in the video cites, are directly related to the LCDM model, which *presumes* that the LCDM model is accurate to start with. :) Talk about self serving circular reasoning.....
 
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sjastro

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Michael

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Since you have concocted what amounts to a ridiculous conspiracy theory that GR has been bastardized by astronomers so that energy conservation can be violated in LCDM then logically the tensor calculus must be wrong.

Nope, that's your own strawman again.

Even your suggestion that conservation of energy does not apply to *all* expansion models is inaccurate. It's entirely possible to have an expanding *object* model which doesn't automatically violate conservation of energy laws. It's only the "space expansion" variety of expansion models that necessarily violates conservation energy laws which simply points out the absurdity of suggesting "space expansion" as a "cause" of redshift.

The other amusing aspect of that video you cited is that the person in the video said the same very thing that I did, specifically that "space expansion" and "dark energy" both violate the conservation of energy laws.

From a skeptics point of view, the LCDM model is falsified *twice*, once because "space expansion" violates known laws of physics, and a second time with the introduction of dark energy. It's dead in the water unless one is willing to simply toss out the laws of physics on a whim. All this demonstrates is the inherent weakness of the LCDM model in general.

As I mentioned earlier, it's also quite telling that only two instances the author of the video cites where energy conservation does not apply is directly related to the LCDM model, which *assumes* that the LCDM is correct to start with. It's a complete self serving and circular argument.
 
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Here is a rather humorous account why energy is not necessarily conserved using Noether's theorem and Lagrangian mechanics instead of tensor calculus as used previously in this thread

This guy says it again.

If space is expanding; what is space expanding into?
 
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sjastro

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Nope, that's your own strawman again.

Even your suggestion that conservation of energy does not apply to *all* expansion models is inaccurate. It's entirely possible to have an expanding *object* model which doesn't automatically violate conservation of energy laws. It's only the "space expansion" variety of expansion models that necessarily violates conservation energy laws which simply points out the absurdity of suggesting "space expansion" as a "cause" of redshift.

The other amusing aspect of that video you cited is that the person in the video said the same very thing that I did, specifically that "space expansion" and "dark energy" both violate the conservation of energy laws.

From a skeptics point of view, the LCDM model is falsified *twice*, once because "space expansion" violates known laws of physics, and a second time with the introduction of dark energy. It's dead in the water unless one is willing to simply toss out the laws of physics on a whim. All this demonstrates is the inherent weakness of the LCDM model in general.

As I mentioned earlier, it's also quite telling that only two instances the author of the video cites where energy conservation does not apply is directly related to the LCDM model, which *assumes* that the LCDM is correct to start with. It's a complete self serving and circular argument.
And how does this save your conspiracy theory given that Einstein and Hilbert knew that energy was not conserved globally a decade before expansion was even advocated.
Your post is a classic example of special pleading and the use of word salad to redefine the definition of expansion to take me out of context.
You are flogging a dead horse.
 
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sjastro

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This guy says it again.

If space is expanding; what is space expanding into?
It's not expanding into anything.
You have an observable universe which is expanding as the particle horizon increases with cosmological time.
Furthermore it is the scale factor that increases with time.
What this means is the space-time between galaxies that are not gravitationally bound expands without the galaxies themselves moving in space-time.
 
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It's not expanding into anything. It's just expanding.

So empty space is expanding into empty space? How do you know that it is not a space bubble expanding into air? I know that question might sound a little kooky to you; but no more kooky than empty space expanding into empty space sounds to me.

 
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