Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

renniks · Feb 1, 2020

tdidymas said:
This verse is about blessing the nation, not about personal salvation.
TD

It's both. Whose sins are forgiven?

renniks · Feb 1, 2020

tdidymas said:
This verse is about blessing the nation, not about personal salvation.
TD

Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Proverbs 28:13

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
James 4:8

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18:32

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30

renniks · Feb 1, 2020

Hammster said:
I didn’t say that. I’m just telling you that this was God talking to His chosen people about a specific situation.

Scripture can’t mean what it never meant.

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30

Hammster · Feb 1, 2020

renniks said:
We are God's chosen people. The promises given to Israel are for all believers.

But that promise was to Israel.

Hammster · Feb 1, 2020

renniks said:
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30

???? Are we just posting random verses now?

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 1, 2020

QUOTE="renniks, post: 74687788, member: 226371"]Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Proverbs 28:13

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
James 4:8

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18:32

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30[/QUOTE
===========================================
If someone conceals (and denies) their sins, and refuses to repent constantly, how can they draw near to God ?
"repent" = 'turn to God' as well as away from sin, instead of concealing sin...

tdidymas · Feb 1, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The "flaw" in your analysis is thinking there it takes "spiritual wisdom and power" and one must "make the EFFORT to get their gift.

The whole concept of receiving a free gift is that it is received PASSIVELY. If one TAKES a "gift" by EFFORT, let's just not call it a gift, ok? Let's, instead, call the police and report a THEFT. For that's what it is.

What I have been saying all along is that we receive the gift of God passively, which includes not even making the choice to receive it. If we have to receive the gift by making a choice to receive it, then it’s an active receiving, not a passive one. This is what the OP is about. God did not get our permission to make us a new creation prior to Him making us that. We became willing to receive the gift after the gift was given. We were willing to believe after the gift of faith was given. Willingness to accept God’s terms requires faith in God, so we must already believe in God before we can even acknowledge that a gift has been given to us by Him, or even that He is offering one.

Therefore, our faith was a divine appointment, and was a divine imposition. God imposed the message of the gospel on us, and imposed the conviction of the Spirit on us, and imposed the warning of judgment on us, and imposed the spiritual wisdom to heed the warning, and imposed the hope that is in Christ. And in spite of all our resistance, His divine influence broke down our resistance, and we submitted. (At least, this is my experience, and how I read the scripture).

I think you've misread the passage. Those verses are 6 quotes from the OT that demonstrate the various ways that all people are sinners. Do all unbelievers murder and shed blood? Of course not. And none of the verses say that a person can't receive a free gift.

So are you saying that some people make better choices than others, by virtue of their autonomous free will (the better choice in this case to believe in Christ)?

It's already been done; when Christ died for them on the cross.

God doesn’t move in someone’s heart until He is good and ready. Peter said to believers that they were born again by the seed of the gospel. Paul wrote in Rom. 10 that faith comes by hearing the word. So, God moving in hearts is done in time, not outside of time.

Furthermore, Christ dying on the cross did not make God move in peoples’ hearts before they existed. It also doesn’t make faith in the gospel message personal. God has to make it personal. So God moves in peoples’ hearts by divine appointment.

"the text"? What text are you referring to?

Forgot already? John 10. You claimed that it wasn’t clear about limiting atonement to the sheep, unless it contained the word “some.” My contention is that it’s the nature of the conversation. I’m saying where is your explanation that it could mean something different? So far, you’re not very convincing.

Great passage!! I love it!!

Let's note the various sheep mentioned in ch 10.

There are these as noted by Jesus:
1. My sheep
2. other sheep of Mine
3. those not of My sheep

So, in ch 10, Jesus refers to all of humanity by the words "the sheep". That's who He died for. If your theory were correct, He'd have said that He would die for "My sheep and the other sheep of Mine". Or just "My sheep". But he also noted those who were "not of My sheep" (v.26).

You’re contradicting yourself here. The ones he was talking to were not his sheep. But if his sheep is all mankind, then they must not be part of mankind. Furthermore, the other sheep are still his sheep. Then there are only 2 categories, his sheep and not his sheep. Since all are mankind, Christ died for some and not others. It’s by design and purpose, not by virtue, since Christ’s death is more than virtuous.

Can you provide any verse that makes this clear?

It’s inherent in the conversation of John 10. Jesus spoke of having sheep prior to their coming to him. Therefore he has to have in mind that the Father has chosen some out of the world.

Except you have no evidence for that. Just the Calvinist talking points.

See my explanation above and ask where it’s not clear.

Nope. As I showed above, He would die for THE sheep. If His death was not for everyone, He would have made that clear by SAYING that He would die for His sheep.

He did say he would die for his sheep – v. 15 “I lay my life down for the sheep.” Note it doesn’t say “for everyone,” but “for the sheep.” How is this not clear?

Were you reading His mind when He said it?

It’s in the text - :16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” It’s a future event to that time. The best conclusion is that some were chosen to be the sheep before they heard the gospel and believed. Don’t you think that Paul got his idea of predestination from these statements of Jesus? Even if Paul got his idea by direct revelation, these statements confirm it.

Nice talking point, but that's it. There is no evidence for this in Scripture.

Except I’m still proving it from the text of scripture.

Well, I think you're asking the wrong question. It isn't what reason did God predestine people, but to whom?

Then the question of for what reason.

We see from Rom 8 that it is believers to whom He predestined. And to what did He predestine believers FOR? "To be conformed to the image of His Son."

What does that mean? iow, God the Father wants all His children (children by faith in Christ, not by election or adoption) to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I'm sure you have heard the words "Christ-like". That's what believers have been predestined for.

The way I read it you have it backward. God predestined us to adoption as sons before the world existed. We become believers because God predestined us, not the other way.

Unfortunately, not all reach their predestination.

If someone doesn’t reach a destination, then they weren’t predestined to that destination. The definition of predestination is “the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation.” It means if someone is foreordained to salvation, then salvation is their destination. Therefore your statement is nonsense.
TD

tdidymas · Feb 1, 2020

renniks said:
It's both. Whose sins are forgiven?

No, it's not both. Go back to 2 Chron. 7 and read the context. It's all about the warning of hardships if the people or the king fail to obey the commandments, and about relieving those hardships if they repent. This is classic Old Covenant material.
TD

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 1, 2020

Whoever stands for the truth, will necessarily be rejected and will suffer much persecution/ tribulation/ problems/ hardships.

tdidymas · Feb 1, 2020

renniks said:
Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Proverbs 28:13

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
James 4:8

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18:32

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30

I commend you for your efforts to show evangelistic verses. Yet this does not tell us how an individual obtains the faith to believe the gospel. What the OP is about is how that happens, which is an act of God. Rom. 10 says "faith comes by hearing" the gospel. Notice it says "comes." Where is it coming from? It is coming from the message heard. But who gave a hearer ears to hear? Many don't hear it, as they are dull of hearing. Many don't believe the gospel because their eyes are blinded by the god of this world. Therefore God has to open eyes, open ears, give people spiritual understanding to obey the gospel and believe the message. This is what regeneration is. It is a miraculous and supernatural act of God, initiated and completed by Him alone. It is not initiated by an autonomous "free will" with blind eyes and deaf ears. Faith comes from God as a free gift, since it is not inherent in the souls of natural men who are in bondage to the sinful nature. God has to free them first, in which He translates us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son.
TD

FreeGrace2 · Feb 1, 2020

tdidymas said:
What I have been saying all along is that we receive the gift of God passively, which includes not even making the choice to receive it.

Where do you get the idea that receiving the free gift of eternal life "includes not even making the choice to receive it"?

It seems you really don't understand the gospel. God offers the free gift of eternal life to those who believe that Christ died for them. Those who hear the message and want to be saved receive it. That most certainly IS a choice.

And the jailer. He asked Paul what he MUST DO to be SAVED. That's a conscious understanding of the concept of being saved. And the jailer wanted it.

And Paul was no Calvinist. He told the jailer to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.

If he were a Calvinist, his answer would have been "there's nothing at all you can do about it. ONLY if you've been chosen to believe will you be saved. And God's decision has already been made. And you can't know until you reach eternity.

If we have to receive the gift by making a choice to receive it, then it’s an active receiving, not a passive one.

This really misses the whole point, and is confused. Active receiving means taking. No one takes eternal life from Jesus. Passive receiving is simply accepting what is being offered. This is really basic information.

This is what the OP is about. God did not get our permission to make us a new creation prior to Him making us that.

OK.

We became willing to receive the gift after the gift was given.

I guess you really don't realize how silly this is.

You HAVE to be willing to receive a gift, or you won't have it. God doesn't force the gift into your hand. But it does seem that a lot of Calvinists think so.

We were willing to believe after the gift of faith was given.

What is this "gift of faith"? What does it look like, and how does it function? And finally, where in the Bible is this even taught?

Willingness to accept God’s terms requires faith in God, so we must already believe in God before we can even acknowledge that a gift has been given to us by Him, or even that He is offering one.

Not quite. We absolutely do need to believe that God exists BEFORE we will believe in Him or His Son. But the gift isn't given to us UNTIL we believe in the work of Christ on the cross on your behalf.

Therefore, our faith was a divine appointment, and was a divine imposition. God imposed the message of the gospel on us, and imposed the conviction of the Spirit on us, and imposed the warning of judgment on us, and imposed the spiritual wisdom to heed the warning, and imposed the hope that is in Christ.

I believe you are trying to "impose" your opinions on me. lol

Where does the Bible teach all this imposition on God's part.

And in spite of all our resistance, His divine influence broke down our resistance, and we submitted. (At least, this is my experience, and how I read the scripture).

I've never read such stuff in my life. What I've read is that God created mankind with a conscience to understand right from wrong (Rom 2:14) and is therefore able to understand the gospel and believe or reject it.

So are you saying that some people make better choices than others, by virtue of their autonomous free will (the better choice in this case to believe in Christ)?

If you don't think that some people make better choices than others, you haven't observed the human race.

God doesn’t move in someone’s heart until He is good and ready.

Are you suggesting that God causes people to believe??

Peter said to believers that they were born again by the seed of the gospel.

Peter was referring to believing the gospel. Or do you think that Peter and Paul were in conflict theologically, because Paul wrote this:

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Do you notice the order and sequence here?

Furthermore, Christ dying on the cross did not make God move in peoples’ hearts before they existed.

That should be quite obvious. God doesn't "move" in any non-existent heart.

It also doesn’t make faith in the gospel message personal. God has to make it personal.

The gospel IS absolutely personal. Christ died for YOUR sins. But I know the Calvinist talking point that Christ died ONLY for the elect. Yeah, right.

So God moves in peoples’ hearts by divine appointment.

Do you have any support from Scripture?

Forgot already? John 10. You claimed that it wasn’t clear about limiting atonement to the sheep, unless it contained the word “some.” My contention is that it’s the nature of the conversation. I’m saying where is your explanation that it could mean something different? So far, you’re not very convincing.

I explained the different types of sheep that Jesus noted. It wasn't that difficult.

Jesus SAID He would die for THE sheep. You misstated Jesus by saying that He would die for HIS sheep. Is that a bit more clear now? If you think "THE" and "HIS" are th same sheep, you're the confused one.

You’re contradicting yourself here. The ones he was talking to were not his sheep.

No I'm not. He was noting that not all sheep were His. There were HIS sheep, those who were NOT His sheep, and then the general THE sheep, being everyone.

But if his sheep is all mankind, then they must not be part of mankind.

This is very confused. HIS sheep are NOT "all mankind". That would be THE sheep, not HIS sheep. This isn't that difficult.

Furthermore, the other sheep are still his sheep.

Yes, of course. He said so.

Then there are only 2 categories, his sheep and not his sheep.

OK. There are sheep that are His (saved) and those that aren't His (unsaved). And He would die for THE sheep.

Since all are mankind, Christ died for some and not others.

I will explain once again. Jesus said He would die for THE sheep.

He did NOT say that He would die for HIS sheep.

It’s inherent in the conversation of John 10. Jesus spoke of having sheep prior to their coming to him.

Please provide verses. I don't believe you.

Therefore he has to have in mind that the Father has chosen some out of the world.

Right. He did. He chose believers.

He did say he would die for his sheep – v. 15 “I lay my life down for the sheep.” Note it doesn’t say “for everyone,” but “for the sheep.” How is this not clear?

So, now it's clear to me that you cannot differentiate between the words "HIS" and "THE". Wowsers.

He said He would die for THE sheep. He did NOT say He would die for HIS sheep.

It’s in the text - :16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” It’s a future event to that time.

He was referring to Gentiles by "other sheep of Mine".

The best conclusion is that some were chosen to be the sheep before they heard the gospel and believed.

Besides being a reformed talking point, where in Scripture is this taught?

Don’t you think that Paul got his idea of predestination from these statements of Jesus? Even if Paul got his idea by direct revelation, these statements confirm it.

I explained what believers are predestinated for. Did you miss it?

Except I’m still proving it from the text of scripture.

Uh, no.

The way I read it you have it backward.

You're reading it backward.

God predestined us to adoption as sons before the world existed.

??!! Where do you get that from Scripture?

Aren't you aware that the believer's adoption hasn't even occurred YET?

We become believers because God predestined us, not the other way.

And yet, you don't have ANY verse that says that.

If someone doesn’t reach a destination, then they weren’t predestined to that destination. The definition of predestination is “the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation.”

Please show me ANY verse that says that anyone is predestined to salvation. That is a Calvinist myth. Predestination isn't to salvation.

It means if someone is foreordained to salvation, then salvation is their destination. Therefore your statement is nonsense.
TD

My statement ONLY appears to be nonsense, because of your extremely biased Calvinist talking points, none of which are biblical.

I've asked you for specific verses that SAY what you claim. I hope you respond to my request.

renniks · Feb 1, 2020

tdidymas said:
I commend you for your efforts to show evangelistic verses. Yet this does not tell us how an individual obtains the faith to believe the gospel. What the OP is about is how that happens, which is an act of God. Rom. 10 says "faith comes by hearing" the gospel. Notice it says "comes." Where is it coming from? It is coming from the message heard. But who gave a hearer ears to hear? Many don't hear it, as they are dull of hearing. Many don't believe the gospel because their eyes are blinded by the god of this world. Therefore God has to open eyes, open ears, give people spiritual understanding to obey the gospel and believe the message. This is what regeneration is. It is a miraculous and supernatural act of God, initiated and completed by Him alone. It is not initiated by an autonomous "free will" with blind eyes and deaf ears. Faith comes from God as a free gift, since it is not inherent in the souls of natural men who are in bondage to the sinful nature. God has to free them first, in which He translates us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son.
TD

So God commands people to do what he doesn't give them the ability to do?
Sounds more like Satan to me.

renniks · Feb 1, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you suggesting that God causes people to believe??

Calvinism is God causing everything, as much as the Calvinist try to deny it. Well, some of them do. It's just determinism with a lot of smoke and mirrors. They argue for God doing everything, then try to deny they just argued for fate. It's very puzzling, but understandable if you investigate what their leaders teach.

tdidymas · Feb 1, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Where do you get the idea that receiving the free gift of eternal life "includes not even making the choice to receive it"?

Because every choice has an action tied to it. Inaction is merely an action against what is decided against. Choices made by men are the work of man. Choices made by man result from the desires, influences, cravings, lusts, knowledge, experiences, memories, and such that reside within man. Man’s will is subject to his greatest desire at any given moment. If you don’t believe this, then I think your anthropology needs an adjustment.

So, when God gives a person life, as Eph. 2 describes, it is afterward that the person’s desire to believe God is greater than his lust for pleasure, pride, and material things, because the Spirit of God is a greater influence than any of the other. So, believing in Christ is the free gift of God by means of His grace which He bestows on whom He chooses to bestow it. What I am saying is that according to Eph. 2, life is given to a person before he is alive enough to make the proper choice favorable to the gospel message.

It seems you really don't understand the gospel. God offers the free gift of eternal life to those who believe that Christ died for them. Those who hear the message and want to be saved receive it. That most certainly IS a choice.

And the jailer. He asked Paul what he MUST DO to be SAVED. That's a conscious understanding of the concept of being saved. And the jailer wanted it.

And Paul was no Calvinist. He told the jailer to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.

If he were a Calvinist, his answer would have been "there's nothing at all you can do about it. ONLY if you've been chosen to believe will you be saved. And God's decision has already been made. And you can't know until you reach eternity.

Your view of Calvinist teaching is extremely distorted. I get the idea you aren’t listening because you don’t want to listen. Nothing you say in here against Calvinism is anything close to what it teaches. I get the idea that you are prejudiced because of slanders you have heard about it. However, I’ll keep plugging away.

God offers eternal life to everyone within hearing range, not just to those who believe, since many are called.

Those who hear the message and want to be saved have already had their “wanter” adjusted by God. In order for someone to want what God is handing out, they must be made spiritual by God, according to 1 Cor. 2. I’m not talking about a common want to inherit paradise after death, which every religion hopes for. I’m talking about the want of what God is handing out, which is submission to Christ, and that takes faith to receive. That kind of faith is a spiritual matter, according to Paul in that chapter. God is the only one who can make a person spiritual enough to want that submission to Christ. People can’t, won’t, and don’t make themselves spiritual, since they are spiritually dead, according to Eph. 2 and Rom. 3:10-18. Becoming spiritual means being born again. According to John 1:13 people are born again of God’s doing, not their own.

This really misses the whole point, and is confused. Active receiving means taking. No one takes eternal life from Jesus. Passive receiving is simply accepting what is being offered. This is really basic information.

I thought you said that taking was stealing. Are you backing off from that? If you say that passive receiving is simply accepting what is offered, then why not say that what God has offered an individual is already given to them?

Oh yes, I get it, you’re trying to save the idea that people can reject salvation, because you loathe the idea that grace is irresistable, yes, I get it.

But how can a person accept a salvation they don’t understand nor believe, and how can a person who understands and believes reject it? I think you have a great burden to prove your reasoning on this matter, other than merely casting aspersions on Calvinism. I think Paul is clear that people who reject the gospel message are unregenerate souls who don’t understand it, and those who accept it have been regenerated.

So, since you asked for a clear scripture saying Christ’s atonement is for some people and not all, I’ll ask you for a clear scripture on belief coming from man apart from God, rather than from God’s work in man. Can you show me a verse in the bible that clearly states that?

And if you quote one of the usuals, I’ll be asking for an exegesis.

And Calvinism comes from Paul, as it is the same soteriology. Paul evangelizing the jailer doesn’t prove anything against Calvinism. Calvinists are very strong evangelists, if they have the gift. So your aspersions about “if he were a Calvinist” is just nonsense.

I guess you really don't realize how silly this is.

It’s not silly, as many times in the NT we are exhorted to rejoice in what God has done for us. Almost every epistle begins with a whole section on what God has done first, and then we are exhorted to obey and give thanks for that. What this whole thread is about is the misunderstanding people have about how God saves people from a spiritual viewpoint.

You HAVE to be willing to receive a gift, or you won't have it. God doesn't force the gift into your hand. But it does seem that a lot of Calvinists think so.

I told another poster here that in my own experience, God did just that. I had no plan to ever become a Christian, but God put a “shotgun” to my head, and I surrendered. God met me where I was. It was His choice, not mine. So your idea that God doesn’t force anyone to receive a gift is simply wrong in my view. God imposes things on people all the time – preaching, conviction, guilt, fear, and even blessing. He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. When I read Eph. 2:5, it certainly looks like the imposition of a blessing of life to me. Can you do an exegesis on that verse and explain how that’s not an imposition?

What is this "gift of faith"? What does it look like, and how does it function? And finally, where in the Bible is this even taught?

Eph. 2:8 - “it is the gift of God.”

Rom. 10:17 “So faith comes from hearing...” - it says “comes” not “decided.”

2 Pet 1:1 - “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: ” - it says “received,” not “produced” nor “chosen”. Other versions say “obtained,” but no difference. It came from outside you, not from you. It was done to you, not something you did. So, you claim faith is chosen by the person who has it, but this is not what the text actually says. It doesn’t say “To those who have chosen a faith the same kind as ours.” It says “received.” That means it is a gift from God.

As far as what it looks like and how it functions, study Heb. 11.

Not quite. We absolutely do need to believe that God exists BEFORE we will believe in Him or His Son. But the gift isn't given to us UNTIL we believe in the work of Christ on the cross on your behalf.

What gift are you talking about? Eternal life? The Holy Spirit? Salvation? And what aspect of salvation? Justification? Sanctification? Let’s get specific.

So it begs the question, do you believe that your faith came from you alone, and that it was your decision alone, apart from any gift God offers?

I believe you are trying to "impose" your opinions on me. lol

Where does the Bible teach all this imposition on God's part.

“When the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.” - sounds like an imposition to me, and felt like one, too.

I've never read such stuff in my life. What I've read is that God created mankind with a conscience to understand right from wrong (Rom 2:14) and is therefore able to understand the gospel and believe or reject it.

1 Cor. 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

He’s talking about who receives the gospel message and who doesn’t. One must be made spiritual by God in order to receive it.

If you don't think that some people make better choices than others, you haven't observed the human race.

Yes, and better choices means that person is more righteous, wiser, better educated, and everything the world aspires to. But Paul describes the spiritual condition of man in Rom. 3:10-18. I know you think these things only refer to some people. It’s a common mistake. But he says “all are under sin” and uses these things as examples of the true condition of the human spirit. If God let us do whatever we wanted, then given the right situation and the strong enough temptation, we would do all of what is described. No one person is “basically good.” If you read it differently, then I think you need correction.

Are you suggesting that God causes people to believe??

I’m not suggesting, I’m stating it. It’s what I have been saying for some time now in this thread. Read what I wrote above about how faith is the gift of God.

Peter was referring to believing the gospel. Or do you think that Peter and Paul were in conflict theologically, because Paul wrote this:

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Notice what it says in the text – “to everyone who believes” not “to everyone who chooses to believe” which is what you want it to say. Believing the gospel comes by illumination of the Spirit, as Paul mentioned in 1 Cor. 2:4. My point in the 1 Peter verse was the same. Rebirth comes by way of hearing the gospel, and it takes an act of God to open the ears of the hearer so that he understands and believes.

Do you notice the order and sequence here?

The order in the statement is that salvation comes before belief. Is this what you’re talking about? Or are you talking about the Jew first and then the Gentile?

That should be quite obvious. God doesn't "move" in any non-existent heart.

The gospel IS absolutely personal. Christ died for YOUR sins. But I know the Calvinist talking point that Christ died ONLY for the elect. Yeah, right.

It looks to me like your language is contradictory. You claim that Christ died for everyone, yet you claim it’s personal. How is it personal if His death doesn’t save anyone in particular? It appears to me that you’re saying it doesn’t become personal until a person chooses to believe it. Like, it’s personal alright, but it doesn’t save anyone until they believe. But this sounds like it’s not personal for the unbeliever. Am I misunderstanding you?

Do you have any support from Scripture?

Eph. 2:5

I explained the different types of sheep that Jesus noted. It wasn't that difficult.

Now that I get what you're saying, it really was difficult, because it's convoluted.

Jesus SAID He would die for THE sheep. You misstated Jesus by saying that He would die for HIS sheep. Is that a bit more clear now? If you think "THE" and "HIS" are th same sheep, you're the confused one.

Incredible! Can you see that “the sheep” is referred to several times in this passage, and it refers to the sheep of Christ? He contrasts Himself as the shepherd with the hireling in which “the sheep” don’t hear them because they don’t belong to them, but they hear the voice of the shepherd. This whole context puts sheep in the category of those belonging to Christ. I think your idea that “the sheep” is everyone doesn’t fit the context. IMO you’re grasping at straws.

But I’ll go with you here. Suppose that the sheep pen has sheep that are not Christ’s. Those that are His know His voice and follow Him, in v. 3. For argument sake, let’s say there are sheep not of His fold and those of His fold. Ok, so from this we know some of them belong to Him.

But He says in v. 16 that there are other sheep belonging to Him that are not yet in the fold. Who decided those were His sheep? Yet, they are His sheep before they come into the fold. These are those which are predestined to be His sheep, since they belong to Him before they are in the fold, and before they hear His voice.

But I think your idea that “the sheep” and “My sheep” are different sheep doesn’t fit the context, since in v. 14 He is speaking of sheep that belong to Him, and then right afterward says he lays His life down for the sheep. In context, His sheep are the sheep He is talking about.

No I'm not. He was noting that not all sheep were His. There were HIS sheep, those who were NOT His sheep, and then the general THE sheep, being everyone.

I don’t get that from the context. Those not His sheep are not sheep, they’re goats.

This is very confused. HIS sheep are NOT "all mankind". That would be THE sheep, not HIS sheep. This isn't that difficult.

Now I get it. But from my POV, it is a strained interpretation, doesn’t naturally follow the text.

OK. There are sheep that are His (saved) and those that aren't His (unsaved). And He would die for THE sheep.

There’s no difference. The sheep He dies for are His.

I will explain once again. Jesus said He would die for THE sheep.
He did NOT say that He would die for HIS sheep.

The sheep He dies for are His sheep, if you read v. 14 & 15 together like it’s the same context.

Please provide verses. I don't believe you.

v. 16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

“must bring” is a future event. “shall hear” is a future event. He calls these His sheep, so His sheep not of this fold are His sheep before they are brought, and before they hear His voice.

So, now it's clear to me that you cannot differentiate between the words "HIS" and "THE". Wowsers.

He said He would die for THE sheep. He did NOT say He would die for HIS sheep.

Nitpicking at words doesn’t solve anything. In context with v. 14 & 15 together, His sheep are the same sheep He is dying for.

He was referring to Gentiles by "other sheep of Mine".

Besides being a reformed talking point, where in Scripture is this taught?

I just explained it, but of course you don’t see it.

I explained what believers are predestinated for. Did you miss it?

No, didn’t you see my response?

Eph. 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”

He says predestined to adoption as sons. It means the fact that we are children of God was predestined for us by God.

And the whole controversy is about why. You claim like most Arminians that God predestined those He foresaw would choose to believe. Is this not what you teach? So your idea of “to whom” is merely a smoke screen. It’s a way around predestination which Arminians simply do not believe. Instead, they turn it into prediction. Anything to make predestination “NOT predestination.”

??!! Where do you get that from Scripture?

Eph. 1:4-5 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will”

“Before the creation of the world” - that is, before the world existed.

“chose us” and “predestined us” is the same idea in different words, and shows that predestination is specific to those He chose.

Aren't you aware that the believer's adoption hasn't even occurred YET?

The redemption of our bodies is part of that adoption, as it is part of salvation. But sons we are, as John testifies in 1 Jn. 3:1.

And yet, you don't have ANY verse that says that.

But you don’t have any verse that says the contrary. All you have is your biased interpretation. So we’re in the same boat, aren’t we?

Please show me ANY verse that says that anyone is predestined to salvation. That is a Calvinist myth. Predestination isn't to salvation.

If you think “predestined to adoption” is not to salvation, then I think you’re deluded.

My statement ONLY appears to be nonsense, because of your extremely biased Calvinist talking points, none of which are biblical.

And so you say, along with all Arminians.

I've asked you for specific verses that SAY what you claim. I hope you respond to my request.

I don’t believe you on this matter, as you have rejected every verse of scripture I have presented. Of course it requires interpretation the same as your prooftexts also require interpretation. The question is whose interpretation is the correct one, seeing they conflict.
TD

tdidymas · Feb 1, 2020

renniks said:
So God commands people to do what he doesn't give them the ability to do?
Sounds more like Satan to me.

Your idea is Pelagian by nature, and was condemned by the councils of that time.

But I'll go with you here (again). It's not that they can't theoretically obey. But they have a twisted appendage that doesn't work right, and it's called human reasoning. Since unregenerate man is in bondage to the sinful nature, that nature prevents him from coming to the proper conclusions about the gospel message. He doesn't believe because he doesn't want to believe. He loves his life of pleasure and materialism more than he could possibly love God (or hope in Christ) because he doesn't know God.

Even if he thinks he knows God (as those think in all the religions of the world), or thinks he loves God, that God he thinks he knows and loves is a god of his imagination, not the only true God. This is why Paul says that to the Jew the gospel is a stumbling stone, and to the Greek foolishness.

Therefore, it takes a supernatural act of God to turn that man's heart to receive God's message and hope in Christ. This happens with some people who hear the gospel message, and are converted.
TD

FreeGrace2 · Feb 2, 2020

renniks said:
Calvinism is God causing everything, as much as the Calvinist try to deny it. Well, some of them do. It's just determinism with a lot of smoke and mirrors. They argue for God doing everything, then try to deny they just argued for fate. It's very puzzling, but understandable if you investigate what their leaders teach.

I'm quite familiar with the talking points of reformed theology. While it is internally consistent, it is totally inconsistent with Scripture.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 2, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Where do you get the idea that receiving the free gift of eternal life "includes not even making the choice to receive it"?

tdidymas said:
Because every choice has an action tied to it.

Please explain this "action". The statement has no meaning without some explanation.

Inaction is merely an action against what is decided against.

Word games. Inaction is just that; no action. This is a common trick by Calvinists; redefine words to fit their theology.

Choices made by men are the work of man. Choices made by man result from the desires, influences, cravings, lusts, knowledge, experiences, memories, and such that reside within man.

Stop right there. You're trying to get to the "T" in TULIP; that man is incapable of believing. Nonsense. Read Romans 2:14 and realize that God created humanity with a conscience so they can determine right from wrong.

So, there goes your "T". Out the window. And that tumbles all the rest of the letters.

Man’s will is subject to his greatest desire at any given moment. If you don’t believe this, then I think your anthropology needs an adjustment.

And man's "greatest desire" is also tied to his conscience, you know, the one God gave man so he could determine right from wrong.

So, when God gives a person life, as Eph. 2 describes, it is afterward that the person’s desire to believe God is greater than his lust for pleasure, pride, and material things, because the Spirit of God is a greater influence than any of the other.

What do you mean by "afterward"? I can't follow this sentence.

So, believing in Christ is the free gift of God by means of His grace which He bestows on whom He chooses to bestow it.

Utter nonsense. Your statement is patently FALSE. No where in the Bible is the action of "believing in Christ" described as "the free gift of God". If you think so, then prove it from Scripture. All you're giving me are reformed talking points, none of which are found in Scripture.

What I am saying is that according to Eph. 2, life is given to a person before he is alive enough to make the proper choice favorable to the gospel message.

Please define "life". Physical or spiritual. Apart from that, your sentence can't be understood.

Your view of Calvinist teaching is extremely distorted.

lol. I'm responding to what YOU are posting. Maybe your view of Scripture is what is distorted. I've already shown your errors in this very post, by describing "believing in Christ" as a free gift of God.

I get the idea you aren’t listening because you don’t want to listen.

If I'm not listening, then how am I able to address your sentences and point out the errors in them?

Nothing you say in here against Calvinism is anything close to what it teaches.

I'm responding to what YOU post.

I get the idea that you are prejudiced because of slanders you have heard about it. However, I’ll keep plugging away.

Just to make sure you get the point, I am responding to what YOU post.

God offers eternal life to everyone within hearing range, not just to those who believe, since many are called.

Of course He does. But Calvinists seem totally unaware of how contradictory that really is according to their own theology. Why would God offer something to those He NEVER INTENDED to give? But, you can't answer that.

Those who hear the message and want to be saved have already had their “wanter” adjusted by God.

The "wanter" is the conscience, which I've already addressed. If you are trying to get to the talking point about regeneration precedes faith, don't bother. There aren't any verses that teach that.

In fact, I can share verses that PROVE that faith precedes regeneration.

I thought you said that taking was stealing.

Wow. You accused me of not listening, and now you prove that you aren't. I said that taking by force is stealing.

Are you backing off from that? If you say that passive receiving is simply accepting what is offered, then why not say that what God has offered an individual is already given to them?

Because that would be incorrect. God doesn't waste time offering what has already been given. Can't you see the absurdity in such a statement?

There is NO REASON to offer what has already been given.

If a husband gave his wife a cup of coffee, and THEN offered her one, she would be thinking of getting him admitted to a mental hospital.

Oh yes, I get it, you’re trying to save the idea that people can reject salvation, because you loathe the idea that grace is irresistable, yes, I get it.

Actually, you seem to "get" very little. Where do YOU get the idea that grace is irresistible? Certainly not from the Bible.

What about Acts 7:51?

But how can a person accept a salvation they don’t understand nor believe, and how can a person who understands and believes reject it?

You questions are bogus. In the first one, obviously they can't. But how does that support reformed theology? It doesn't. It's just a fact. One has to understand before they can believe. Romans 10 lays that all out.

As for the second question, aren't you aware that many people have CHANGED THEIR MINDS about what they have believed? Haven't you EVER changed your mind about something?

I think you have a great burden to prove your reasoning on this matter, other than merely casting aspersions on Calvinism.

I am only pointing out the fallacies of Calvinism. It isn't biblical.

I think Paul is clear that people who reject the gospel message are unregenerate souls who don’t understand it, and those who accept it have been regenerated.

I've met and read in magazine many people who clearly DO understand the message of the gospel and YET don't believe it. So don't give me this jazz. And you are still trying to defend regeneration before faith, which isn't biblical.

So, since you asked for a clear scripture saying Christ’s atonement is for some people and not all, I’ll ask you for a clear scripture on belief coming from man apart from God, rather than from God’s work in man. Can you show me a verse in the bible that clearly states that?

So, iow, you don't have any such verse that supports your claims, so you simply dodge and ask me a question. Doesn't work like that.

But, since your question is so easy to answer, I can't resist. No one believes "apart from God". That would be impossible. You see, from Romans 1:19,20 God already made His existence obvious, so that no one has any excuse. Those who never respond to God's obvious existence will never be able to use the excuse at the GWT judgment that "no one told me the gospel". Ha. No excuse.

Since we have the written word, again, no one has any excuse. The Bible came from God. So there is no such thing as "apart from God". Yet, this isn't even close to the talking point about regeneration in order to believe.

And Calvinism comes from Paul, as it is the same soteriology.

Not.even.close.

Paul evangelizing the jailer doesn’t prove anything against Calvinism.

I already gave you what he answer should have been if he were a Calvinist.

So, I must ask you, since Paul wasn't omniscient, and could NOT know if the jailer was "one of the elect", how does his answer align with Calvinism's view of election?

Calvinists are very strong evangelists, if they have the gift. So your aspersions about “if he were a Calvinist” is just nonsense.

Then explain why evangelize since God has already chosen, and apart from ANY conditions, who will be saved? I know the stock answer, that God commands it. But even that is contrary to reality. If God has already chosen, apart from any condition, then there is NO NEED for it. Since what God ordains, will surely come to pass. I think that is in the WCF.

It’s not silly, as many times in the NT we are exhorted to rejoice in what God has done for us.

I'm not arguing that.

I told another poster here that in my own experience, God did just that. I had no plan to ever become a Christian, but God put a “shotgun” to my head, and I surrendered.

Sure. What gauge? What brand? Nonsense. You simply were convicted in your soul by the Holy Spirit and you realized, from your God given conscience, that you needed to be saved.

Of course no one "plans to become a Christian". So no need to make such a statement, as if others do.

God met me where I was.

He meets everyone where they are.

It was His choice, not mine.

It's God's choice that everyone be saved. But not everyone gets saved.

1 Tim 2
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Blue words are God's desire.
Red words are who Christ died for.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 2, 2020

tdidymas, your post was so long, I had to split it up in order to post it.

Here's the second part.

So your idea that God doesn’t force anyone to receive a gift is simply wrong in my view.

Of course it would be. You're a Calvinist and Calvinists think that God forces His gift on those He chooses. But you cannot find any verse that backs you up on this.

God imposes things on people all the time – preaching, conviction, guilt, fear, and even blessing. He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. When I read Eph. 2:5, it certainly looks like the imposition of a blessing of life to me. Can you do an exegesis on that verse and explain how that’s not an imposition?

I've never said God doesn't impose things on people. The Bible, though, NEVER says anything about imposing salvation on anyone. That's your error.

Eph. 2:8 - “it is the gift of God.”

The "it" refers back to being saved, or salvation. Which perfectly aligns with Rom 6:23 and eternal life is a gift of God.

Rom. 10:17 “So faith comes from hearing...” - it says “comes” not “decided.”

And...what's your point here?

[QUTOE]2 Pet 1:1 - “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: ” - it says “received,” not “produced” nor “chosen”. Other versions say “obtained,” but no difference. It came from outside you, not from you.[/QUOTE]
Do you even understand this verse. The word "faith" is a noun. What is the noun? The message from God. That's what has come to man, and man receives.

This verse in no way supports your claim that God causes people to believe.

Rom 10:9 says that man believes from the heart. Not "from God'.

[QTUOE] It was done to you, not something you did.[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant statement, since "faith" isn't "done to you". It's not a verb.

So, you claim faith is chosen by the person who has it, but this is not what the text actually says.

I never said any such thing. There are many religious faiths. People choose what they believe. Do you understand that?

It doesn’t say “To those who have chosen a faith the same kind as ours.” It says “received.” That means it is a gift from God.

No it doesn't.

What gift are you talking about? Eternal life? The Holy Spirit? Salvation? And what aspect of salvation? Justification? Sanctification? Let’s get specific.

Eternal life, salvation, and the Holy Spirit are ALL described in the Bible as gifts. Is that specific enough for you?

So it begs the question, do you believe that your faith came from you alone, and that it was your decision alone, apart from any gift God offers?

My faith, which is the belief system found in the Bible, obviously comes from God, since God wrote the Bible through human authors.

If you are asking about my action of believing in Christ, that came from my heart, since the Bible says so.

“When the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.” - sounds like an imposition to me, and felt like one, too.

OK.

1 Cor. 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

He’s talking about who receives the gospel message and who doesn’t. One must be made spiritual by God in order to receive it.

No, Paul is talking about the fact that unbelievers cannot understand spiritual things. But that is not the gospel.

The proof is in the fact that many unbelievers HAVE described the gospel message very accurately and yet don't accept it.

Do you understand the story of Santa Clause? Do you believe it?

Yes, and better choices means that person is more righteous, wiser, better educated, and everything the world aspires to.

No it doesn't. Here's the FACT. God gave everyone a conscience, with which to discern right from wrong. Some don't care, some do. Nothing about being more righteous in the choice. That's just smoke and mirrors.

Aren't you aware of Gen 15:6, and Romans 4? On the basis of believing God's word, God CREDITS righteousness to the believer. Do you see it? It isn't the action that is righteous, but that God imputes or credits righteousness to the one believing.

Notice what it says in the text – “to everyone who believes” not “to everyone who chooses to believe” which is what you want it to say.

Are you admitting that what you believe to be true isn't a choice that you have made?

The order in the statement is that salvation comes before belief.

No it doesn't. Read it again. Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

iow, coffee comes to the one who asks for it. So, what comes first; the coffee, or the request for coffee.

It looks to me like your language is contradictory. You claim that Christ died for everyone, yet you claim it’s personal. How is it personal if His death doesn’t save anyone in particular?

Because His death saves NO ONE. His death satisfied the justice of God the Father. That is why God CAN give a free gift to those who believe. Their sins have been paid for. But that doesn't mean they have been forgiven. Jesus even told the Pharisees that they would die in their sins if they didn't believe in Him.

It appears to me that you’re saying it doesn’t become personal until a person chooses to believe it.

You would be wrong. Christ died for every person. That is personal. By His death, He purchased a "Christmas present" for everyone.

Picture a Christmas tree with Christmas presents for everyone in humanity, with their name on their own present. Inside is the gift of eternal life.

So, who gets a present. Only those who believe in Christ for salvation.

But the Calvinist version is that only those who God chose beforehand to have it.

Like, it’s personal alright, but it doesn’t save anyone until they believe. But this sounds like it’s not personal for the unbeliever. Am I misunderstanding you?

Totally. Correct evangelism tells unbelievers that Christ died FOR THEM. But Calvinism won't ever say that.

[QTUOTE]Eph. 2:5[/QUOTE]
How does this verse support any of your claims.
" made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

What it does is equate "made alive (regeneration)" with "being saved". It's v.8 that sinks your boat. There, faith precedes salvation.

Incredible! Can you see that “the sheep” is referred to several times in this passage, and it refers to the sheep of Christ?

Your claim is unsupported in ch 10.

He contrasts Himself as the shepherd with the hireling in which “the sheep” don’t hear them because they don’t belong to them, but they hear the voice of the shepherd. This whole context puts sheep in the category of those belonging to Christ. I think your idea that “the sheep” is everyone doesn’t fit the context. IMO you’re grasping at straws.

OK, let's consider a sheep pen, and a shepherd who has His own sheep in that pen. But there are other sheep in that pen that are not His own. OK?

If the shepherd says He will die for his sheep, that makes sense. What if he says that he will die for THE sheep in that pen. That's different.

But I’ll go with you here. Suppose that the sheep pen has sheep that are not Christ’s. Those that are His know His voice and follow Him, in v. 3. For argument sake, let’s say there are sheep not of His fold and those of His fold. Ok, so from this we know some of them belong to Him.

Great. My example!! And Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, He did NOT say HIS sheep, as you keep claiming.

But He says in v. 16 that there are other sheep belonging to Him that are not yet in the fold.

No, He said nothing about "not yet" in the fold. He was referring to Gentile believers.

But I think your idea that “the sheep” and “My sheep” are different sheep doesn’t fit the context, since in v. 14 He is speaking of sheep that belong to Him, and then right afterward says he lays His life down for the sheep. In context, His sheep are the sheep He is talking about.

You are just in total denial of the reality of what Jesus said. He identified sheep that were His and sheep that were not His. And He would die for THE sheep.

I don’t get that from the context. Those not His sheep are not sheep, they’re goats.

And this demonstrates the sheer ERROR of your misunderstanding. There is NO mention of goats anywhere in ch 10. So what you are doing is eisegeting the text, not exegeting the text. You are adding what is not there. If Jesus considered the unbelieverss goats, He would have said so. But that would be weird, since Jesus was talking about people, believers and unbelievers. So in ch 10, THE sheep means everyone.

Now I get it. But from my POV, it is a strained interpretation, doesn’t naturally follow the text.

Of course it wouldn't when read through the lens of Calvinism.

There’s no difference. The sheep He dies for are His.

This is delusional. Of course there is a difference. But that fact reveals the error of Calvinism, and your eyes aren't open to reality.

v. 16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

This is prophesy when Jews and Gentiles are in the same church, after His death and resurrection.

“must bring” is a future event. “shall hear” is a future event. He calls these His sheep, so His sheep not of this fold are His sheep before they are brought, and before they hear His voice.

Of course. The undeniable fact is that Jesus mentioned sheep that are His and those who were not His sheep. And He never mentioned any goats. That is laughable.

Eph. 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”

He says predestined to adoption as sons. It means the fact that we are children of God was predestined for us by God.

You don't understand anything about adoption then. Rom 8:23 indicates it is still future.

And the whole controversy is about why. You claim like most Arminians that God predestined those He foresaw would choose to believe. Is this not what you teach?

Eph 1:4 is clear. The "us" refers to believers, as proven from v.19 where Paul actually defines what he means by "us". God chose believers to be holy and blameless. This speaks to how believers are to live their lives, as these words are found elsewhere as a command to obey.

So your idea of “to whom” is merely a smoke screen. It’s a way around predestination which Arminians simply do not believe. Instead, they turn it into prediction. Anything to make predestination “NOT predestination.”

Just to be clear, I'm no Arminian. They are quite screwed up in their silly loss of salvation view.

But you don’t have any verse that says the contrary. All you have is your biased interpretation. So we’re in the same boat, aren’t we?

Nope. You are all aone in that biased interpretation of yours.

If you think “predestined to adoption” is not to salvation, then I think you’re deluded.

You are free to think anything you want to. But just read Rom 8:23 and learn about when adoption occurs. John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 prove that you are wrong.

I don’t believe you on this matter, as you have rejected every verse of scripture I have presented.

I don't reject any Scripture. I DO reject the talking points of Calvinists and Arminians who misread and misunderstand Scripture.

renniks · Feb 2, 2020

tdidymas said:
Your idea is Pelagian by nature, and was condemned by the councils of that time.

Your idea is fatalism with God thrown in. It's no different at it's core than Aristotle's unmoved mover and in fact, was introduced into the church by Augustine who was a former cult member. He was influenced by Platonic philosophy and Manichaen theology. Peleagias may have gone too far in the other direction, if he did indeed believe what is claimed, that is, that man can obey God perfectly of his own will. That is not what I am claiming. I'm just stating the obvious, that God will give us the ability to obey him, to the extent that we choose to rely on him.

renniks · Feb 2, 2020

tdidymas said:
Therefore, it takes a supernatural act of God to turn that man's heart to receive God's message and hope in Christ. This happens with some people who hear the gospel message, and are converted.

But those who are not converted, but are convicted, could have been saved if they had surrendered.
Otherwise, it's just God forcing himself on some and ignoring others. That's not a God of love. That's not the One who died for all.

Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Newbie

Newbie

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Newbie

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads