Which world is better: the world with no God or the world where the gospel is true?

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public hermit

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Then it’s not an example of an atheist arguing for ‘something from nothing’, in the same sense that we are talking about here. And Krauss would acknowledge that.

That's fair, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. I remember when his book came out and the debates that followed. Besides Krauss's disdain for philosophers and philosophical notions, I'm not so sure he thought of his nothing as anything other than nothing. You're right, he seemed to argue that nothing is real and has existence. And yet, he obviously wanted to try and monopolize on the usual concept of nothing, somehow hoping to convince people that the nothing we thought was nothing is actually something, after all. He was hoping to solve the old question, "Why something instead of nothing?" And his answer seemed to be, "What is nothing is something, and therefore it is truly the nothing from which all other somethings arise." It was an ambitious attempt to change the way we normally conceive of nothing, and it didn't work, did it?

What Is Nothing? Physicists Debate | The Existence of Nothing | Live Science
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You would also have to have all knowledge to know that the hand before your face is real and not a figment of your fevered imagination. That means this is not a valid objection.
I agree. But my objection is still valid. I am not dismissing the possibility of solipsism.

I switched from "something cannot come from nothing" to the more formalized principle of sufficient reason (i.e., that everything must have a reason, cause, or ground). This principle is, amongst many other things, required for empirical science to function, since if scientists denied that there had to be an underlying reason that experiments turned out one way instead of an other, all of science would come to a grinding halt.
I don't have an objection to this. I agree that everything must have a cause. I don't agree that we can know what that cause is or if it is just properties of this universe.

For a different example, imagine a group of street magicians sharing magical tricks on the street. One of them begins to perform magnificent illusions that the others cannot figure out, and when they ask him how he does these tricks, he claims that he uses real magic. Should the other magicians accept the possibility that their colleague actually has magical powers, or should they operate according to the principle of sufficient reason and assume that there is a rational explanation behind his tricks? (Mind you, even the notion that the magician is actually performing real magic doesn't immediately break the principle of sufficient reason, since he would presumably be the cause of the magic. This makes denying the principle of suffficient reason more radical than accepting the possible of magic.)
I have always promoted sufficient reasons for belief. I would not conclude in any way that magic is real in your example.

Again, I think denying the principle of sufficient reason is far more extreme than entertaining solipsism.
I am not denying sufficient reason. I am not convinced that the sufficient reason is a god or being in any way. How do you describe what the necessary cause is?

This has nothing to do with whether someone is named Gina or Clara or Genevieve. If modern atheists are operating under the assumption that we are not justified in assuming that random street magicians aren't genuine sorcerers, I think there is an enormous problem with the underlying epistemology.
This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Also, I am one atheist, we don't all believe the same things. We are only unoted under a lack of belief in gods.

This is a deeply problematic, somewhat uncritical statement. The unfounded assumptions that you just happen to hold are somehow justified, but assumptions that for whatever reason you do not share are therefore unnecessary and unwarranted? I would assume that there are genuine solipsists out there who do not see any reason to assume that reality is genuine, and they would consider your assumptions unnecessary and unwarranted.
Because the assumptions are made for different reasons. My assumption that solipsism is not a truth claim. Solipsism could be true but I cannot operate in this reality if I truly believed that. assumption that something cannot come from nothing is a claim. Can you define nothing?

The other problem is that you are always operating under the assumption that everyone except you is making a claim. I would not say that the principle of sufficient reason needs to be true, but that our minds are hardwired to accept that it is true, which puts it in the same category as the denial of solipsism. (Though I think that the success of the scientific project actually provides very good evidence that the principle of sufficient reason is true, since the whole thing hasn't collapsed into unintelligibility just yet.)
I disagree. But are not you speculating on what that sufficient reason is?

So what is the sufficient reason? Is it a being or law of the universe. Does it affect me in any way?
 
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MrsFoundit

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Just because you don't know the science does not invalidate it.

I did not say it was invalid.

No, I am bring new knowledge to a discussion.

Not to me.

Nope. When you say things like "desperate atheism" whatever that means, it implies that you are not assessing the science I refer to. It is easy to look up on the internet if you wish.

Now, on top of your false claim of ability to "assess" a thing without any idea what it is, you can apparently now detect knowledge based on your non-comprehension of words.

Why can't you tell me what you believe and why? Why are you a christian?

I have told you what I believe and why and why I am a Christian.
 
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MrsFoundit

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Can we agree that if future discoveries yield that the 'universe' always was, (i.e.) is eternal, this might raise great pause for the current assertions of [creationism] entire; logically?


What are the relevant "current assertions?".

(Alternatively), if the universe is deemed a finite, or did have a true beginning, we are no closer to concluding monotheism, than we were outside of this yet undiscovered observation?

Yes.
 
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MrsFoundit

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Enlighten me please. You say this kind of thing a lot but never explain what you mean. Please explain what you mean.

Ok.

What was your basis for referring to "faith" as a possible "pathway to truth"?
Include a definition of "faith" and your standards for testing "truth".
 
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quatona

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This thread is about which world is better, which world is best.
Ah, so we had a misunderstanding. I thought you asked which world I like better.
As for the question "Which world is better": I don´t know how to answer it. You would have to give me criteria, values, etc. based on which you want me to consider your question (since you don´t want me to apply my own).
It may be that the best world is not the actual world.
Actually, it´s kind of weird that you reduce the considerations to two possible worlds out of a multitude of possible worlds.
It may be that the world we prefer is not the one that is best. Your assertion that what is true is not a matter of what you prefer bears this out.
I have no other way of approaching this question - to me it´s not a truth-question, but an opinion-question.
If you can provide a method of figuring out the "true" answer to the quality of a world, I am all ears.

You say that you prefer finitude. Obviously, others do not.
Well, I can only speak for myself.
Are you saying that non-existence is preferable to you than that?
Non-existence isn´t even a state. I said I prefer finitude over infinitude (is that even a word?).
Whatever the case, on this account, it seems World 2 is not only preferable, but better than World 1. Do you disagree?
Well, I don´t know how you arrived at that truth claim. You would have to provide the logic.



We can take them one by one. Is meaning a matter of preference. Does what is meaningful for you and for others depend on preference? Same for purpose?

You see, part of what I am getting at is meaning and purpose and preference depend on our existence in this world. So, at the end of the day none of these are simply up to our own preference. For, we do not spontaneously generate ourselves. We are wholly dependent on factors not up to our preferences. This is true in both World 1 and World 2.

In World 1 the source of our ability to have meaning and purpose is wholly accidental, or at least it is not up to us. These things spring from accident or necessity, depending on how you look at it, none of which have anything to do with our "rathers." Meaning, purposes, preferences, are simply biological functions and mean nothing, have no purpose, and the "I" who prefers is an illusion. Now, to be fair, we might argue that there is an evolutionary meaning and purpose, but even that is not up to our preferences and the meaning and purpose is not our own. It's simply an accident, a happening, a force thrust upon us according to the species we happen to be and nothing more.

In World 2, meaning and purpose also do not depend on us. They are given, sustained, and realized in relation to the Divine Source who has the power to give such things. These too are thrust upon us, for we do not spontaneously generate ourselves, but we are created with meaning, for purpose, and the "I" who, through their own preference does or does not live in the appropriate way, is real and accountable for it.
In short: In world1 we are the ones who get to create meaning, in world2 we aren´t.



You don't have to justify anything to me. This is a conversation in which we are freely engaging with each other to learn and understand. Again, that is the meta-purpose of this thread.

I think how we consider others is relevant given how we see the world. I am curious about how you see others, given your choice of World 1 and your preference for finitude. I argued above that the "I" in World 1 is an illusion.
I´m sorry, but I haven´t seen you arguing this. I have seen you asserting it.
Assuming you agree, do you see others as simply biological products of blind forces, or evolutionary forces?
Assuming I would agree that the I is an illusion, your questions about me wouldn´t even make sense.

Is you concern for others, which I will generously assume you have, simply the end result of neurological happenings in your brain or does it matter beyond the mere sentiment you feel in your body?
You have a weird way of putting up funny either-ors.

In World 2, We are obligated to see others as creatures who have been brought into existence and are loved by God, as are we. How we see others and how we live in relation to them is of the utmost importance. They matter, and it doesn't depend on our preference.
Yeah, world2 is better for God - I´ll give you that.



Assuming you agree with my assessment of these two worlds so far, I doubt you can see both worlds as the same. Or if you do, you are not being consistent. Based on what has been said, what meaning and purpose amount to in one world is radically different than what they amount to in the other. Do you agree?
Well, humans are way more important to me than Gods.
 
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cvanwey

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What are the relevant "current assertions?".

It does not really matter, because they are still working models in progress (i.e) 'eternal inflation', other...

The (yes/no) question becomes...

If the 'universe' always was, then to assert a 'creator' seems absurd, right?



Okay, so we agree here :) So leave the debate, investigation, inquiries, for the 'origins' of the 'universe', to the 'powers-that-be'. To argue 'something from nothing', or other, gets us no closer to [your] God.
 
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Uber Genius

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World no 2 has eternal Hell, which is much worse than World no 1.

I am surprised that Christians tend to ignore the evil when it's commanded by God.

For example, and there are dozens of such examples, a man gathering sticks on a Saturday, lost his life because of this. See Numbers 15:32-36.

He was killed. We are not sure whether he had a family, but assuming he did, his kids lost a father and his wife a husband. That's a problem, in my view. But in a religious view, the evil was not done by those who killed him, but by the man himself! He deserved the punishment!

To me, that's a true insurmountable problem of evil in the world No 2, even if you assume there is no Hell.

The problem of hell does need to be examined by every Judeo-Christian or Muslim believer.

But your statement about, "Christians tend to ignore evil when it's commanded by God," is not true of the tens of thousands of Christians I have interacted with during the last 45 years as a Christian.

So problem must be dealt with carefully and systematically in order to achieve rationality (avoid logical fallacy).

Secondly, while I agree that if we define hell as eternal conscious torment, (many do not, both historically and currently), the problem of hell undercuts the notion of a loving God, if the Christian is familiar with the various arguments for the existence of God (cosmological, teleological, moral, transcendent, ontological), and has some internal witness of the Holy Spirit, they could hold that God has a good reason for creating a world in which people freely separate themselves from God forever, even if you don’t know what that reason is.

So although the POH is a good undercutting argument for the atheist, it could be the case that it takes one from a 90% confidence level of God's existence down to say 65% but that they are justified in saying:

"On balance, given that God's existence is the best explanation of:

- The beginning of the universe from nothing, no space, no time, no matter, no energy

- The fine-tuning for life of the universe and solar system

- The sudden arrival of algorithmically complex information in the form of DNA

- The existence of objective moral values and duties

- Meaning in human existence and in suffering

- The fact that there are no atheists in fox holes

- Numerous experiences of an other-worldly presence known in scripture as the Holy Spirit

I am still maintain warranted belief even though God has chosen to create a place of eternal conscious torment by beings who freely choose to be there."

So even before we look at the nature of punishment predicated on God's commands, and those commands predicated on God's good nature so to properly represent the problem of hell, we would not necessarily have a knockdown argument.

In fact, most of my engagements, f2f that is, with atheists finds that they have little in the way or arguments for atheism or defeaters for theistic arguments, but rather have significant experience of suffering and evil. It is this experience that the real world is not good, and certainly not like we are told a place like heaven is. Therefore their warranted belief in no God is not countered by knowledge of evidence in favor of that belief.

Warrant differs among individuals. Especially since a little experiential data counts for an order of magnitude of warranted belief than a priori arguments, wouldn't you agree.

Now this last paragraph, where I suggest atheism can be as warranted as theism is an area where few of my fellow Christian would join me. But that is because most haven't had a class in epistemology which is no great crime.
 
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MrsFoundit

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It is a fact that someone that believes something with evidence has a higher standard of evidence than someone that does not require evidence for belief.

You have repeatedly been asked to identify what you call "evidence". As in positively, not that it is not faith.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So although the POH is a good undercutting argument for the atheist, it could be the case that it takes one from a 90% confidence level of God's existence down to say 65% but that they are justified in saying:

"On balance, given that God's existence is the best explanation of:

- The beginning of the universe from nothing, no space, no time, no matter, no energy

- The fine-tuning for life of the universe and solar system

- The sudden arrival of algorithmically complex information in the form of DNA

- The existence of objective moral values and duties

- Meaning in human existence and in suffering

- The fact that there are no atheists in fox holes

- Numerous experiences of an other-worldly presence known in scripture as the Holy Spirit
A best explanation is not sufficient evidence for belief. There are an infinite possible explanations for the existence of the universe or anything on your list. An explanation is meaningless unless it is founded on evidence. Just because something explains something does not mean in any way it is correct. Pixies explain all these things you listed as well as a god does.

Most atheists have meaning in life and many die content with their belief. The last two on your list are just false.

I am still maintain warranted belief even though God has chosen to create a place of eternal conscious torment by beings who freely choose to be there."
I freely choose to not go to hell. Am I saved?
 
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Uber Genius

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A best explanation is not sufficient evidence for belief
Careful, you just destroyed a significant amount of scientific knowledge including Darwin's Theory of Evolution which he argued was with abduction!

This is the fallacy known as special pleading.
 
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Uber Genius

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Most atheists have meaning in life and many die content with their belief. The last two on your list are just false.
Misses the point.
We are talking about objective meaning!

For more read any existentialist. The claim is not "Do you feel meaningful," or "Are you able to just create meaning where there is no justification for same (Satre/Camus/etc.)"

Just claiming these are false is not arguing in support of your claim.

We can go down that path in detail if you like.

Similar to the argument for objective values and duties,

I don't claim that atheist can't be moral, just that they can't be consistent with their belief and be moral, of course they can be moral on theism as they are endowed with the same moral faculties a theist is and so perceive moral standards while denying their source or their existence.
 
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MrsFoundit

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If the 'universe' always was, then to assert a 'creator' seems absurd, right?

Why is what seems absurd relevant either way? Apparent absurdity is just subjective perception in any world view.

Okay, so we agree here :) So leave the debate, investigation, inquiries, for the 'origins' of the 'universe', to the 'powers-that-be'. To argue 'something from nothing', or other, gets us no closer to [your] God.

I am not debating anything dependent on what science does or does not know. I did not use "something from nothing" as a truth claim, I was simply told I did by someone else.

My first mention of it came with an exclusion for anyone who entertains panspermia or admits to no idea.

I am also not attempting to "get" anyone closer to any deity in this thread.
 
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Uber Genius

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I freely choose to not go to hell. Am I saved?
Now that is a good question.

Can't speak for Muslims or Jews here. Nor can I speak for all Christians.

But my take on New Testament is that there are only two options:
1 - Confess Jesus as Lord and master
2 - Reject Jesus as Lord and master
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Careful, you just destroyed a significant amount of scientific knowledge including Darwin's Theory of Evolution which he argued was with abduction!

This is the fallacy known as special pleading.
No it is not. One definition of special pleading is this:

Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.

All I am saying is that an explanation needs support by evidence to be believed. Saying it is the best available answer says nothing about the absolute quality of the evidence.

Lets say there are three explanations for why someone lives in Minnesota.

1. They were born there.
2. Aliens put them there.
3. Pixies told them to live there.

The best answer of the three known answers is that they were born there. But the answer is actually that they got a job there.

Best explanations do not show any measure of truth.
 
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Uber Genius

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t does not really matter, because they are still working models in progress (i.e) 'eternal inflation', other...

The (yes/no) question becomes...

If the 'universe' always was, then to assert a 'creator' seems absurd, right?

False

All evidence is that the universe began to exist.

Similarly, all evidence is that IF a multiverse exists then it too has to have a beginning.

Not controversial at all.

This is why when the Kalam Cosmological Argument is argued, few cosmologists ever argue against the premise "the universe began to exist."
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Misses the point.
We are talking about objective meaning!

For more read any existentialist. The claim is not "Do you feel meaningful," or "Are you able to just create meaning where there is no justification for same (Satre/Camus/etc.)"

Just claiming these are false is not arguing in support of your claim.

We can go down that path in detail if you like.

Similar to the argument for objective values and duties,

I don't claim that atheist can't be moral, just that they can't be consistent with their belief and be moral, of course they can be moral on theism as they are endowed with the same moral faculties a theist is and so perceive moral standards while denying their source or their existence.
Justify your belief in a god that is moral then you would be correct.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Now that is a good question.

Can't speak for Muslims or Jews here. Nor can I speak for all Christians.

But my take on New Testament is that there are only two options:
1 - Confess Jesus as Lord and master
2 - Reject Jesus as Lord and master

Then how can you say that people freely choose to go to hell? Who sends people to hell?
 
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Uber Genius

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I agree. But my objection is still valid. I am not dismissing the possibility of solipsism.
Then with whom would you be conversing?
If you have taken your epistemic factory settings and set them so high as to reject the existence of a real world, other minds, the reality of the past, it hardly seems coherent to then "Argue" a point with a non-existent person, about a non-existent real world, on whether or not the person of God exists?

So every response you could make to any post betrays the fact that you actually believe in a real world, with other minds, and rationality and some semblance of your faculties giving you similar data to other minds' faculties.

There is a so much foundational work to do here before we ever get to the discussion the knowledge claims God doesn't exist, or God does exist.
 
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cvanwey

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False

All evidence is that the universe began to exist.

Similarly, all evidence is that IF a multiverse exists then it too has to have a beginning.

Not controversial at all.

This is why when the Kalam Cosmological Argument is argued, few cosmologists ever argue against the premise "the universe began to exist."

Okay, again, IF the 'universe' turns out eternal, can [we] agree that to assert a creator becomes absurd? (yes or no)?

On a complete side note... If it's so obvious as to what you say, then the 'still irrelevant topic' is settled right? wrong... :)

 
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