Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

Hammster said:

Okay, my apologies. That’s what I took from your post. If that’s not the case, then, how can one submit to God (something that’s pleasing to Him) while still in the flesh (and those in the flesh cannot please God)?

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I already answered. You just ignored it.

Hammster said:

I’m not seeing in Acts where it says when he was regenerated. What words are you seeing that specifically say that?

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If someone asks how to be saved, what should I reply? If I was a consistent Calvinist, I should say that if God wants to save you he will. Don't do anything.

Hammster said:

No, it’s not a good question for this thread.

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God Loves You!

tdidymas said:

I agree this is a huge topic, and this forum is not designed to resolve these issues. The reason I am responding is because I'm answering the objections to so-called Calvinism which the OP is about. In my view the objections are invalid, although many of the questions are legitimate.

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What do you mean by “totally depraved spiritually”, because we might be in agreement?

The “fall” is not used in scripture to describe Adam and Eve’s first sin. We know humans did obtain “knowledge of good and evil”, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

Ro. 3:10-18 is very poetic and at least some is a hyperbole like:

“Their throats are open graves… “

“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”

“ruin and misery mark their ways”

But lets stick to: “no one righteous, not even one;11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

I am not saying the unbelieving sinner can do anything noble, worthy, righteous, or beneficial to others or God. 1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

All unbelieving sinners do not have Godly type Love, so they are nothing and gain nothing.

But can the sinner do “something”?

Jesus could use any word He wanted to best communicate, so describing the prodigal son in the foreign land twice Christ used “dead”, so by Jesus’ definition of a spiritually “dead” person, that person can for purely selfish reasons turn to his father. In like selfish reasoning and for the same motive spiritually “dead” sinners can turn to God. This is not righteous since unselfishness is righteous and the person is doing it for selfish reasons. The sinner is not doing something worthy or honorable since he/she is wimping out, giving up and surrendering to their enemy while they are still hating their enemy, but like a surrendering soldier in battle the soldier is just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from his/her enemy. They may realize they really should be tortured to death for their previous war crimes, but God showers them with gifts which include Godly type Love and eternal life.

tdidymas said:

I see that your argument is well-thought out, except you are leaving out some things, which every Arminian leaves out, namely that because of the Fall, man is totally depraved spiritually, and this is described in Rom. 3:10-18. If man wasn't totally depraved, then he could produce a spiritually righteous act, and if he could do that, then righteousness would be established by obedience to the law. But the apostle Paul debunks that idea.

This makes the gospel message about Christ much more serious than most people make it out to be. Christ doesn't save people from mistakes. He saves them from hating God. And this takes an act of God, since human reasoning cannot come to the point of choosing to love Him. God must intervene in the life and soul of individuals.
TD

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The unbelieving sinner is not “saving himself” any more than the prodigal son “saved” himself, all the saving belongs to the Father.

I fully agree the unbelieving (hell bound) sinner has no reason to Love God, he/she does not even have the Love to Love God. It is only after the unbelieving sinner willingly accepts God’s sacrificial pure charity as charity that the sinner is showered with unbelievable gifts, the greatest being Godly type love and eternal life.

corinth77777 said:

This not a debate statement:
There is a passage where God says walk before me...what that has to do with the process I'm not sure....

There is also a passage where the old testament folks seem to be Baptized in the presence of the trinity under the cloud and in the red sea.

This you can argue: but remember even though I am not dogmatic about, that the dead do not cry out on their own... that I do not leave room for a change of mind.

If God made people with Free will, in His image, the ability to need something bigger then themselves one really can't put their finger on when God starts His work.
Even though God is the progenitor of all things what part in our conscience allows man to seek more than the world, Satan, and the flesh. ARE WE SAYING that people do not know they are dead.....

NOW IF YOU CAN PROVE THE DEAD DO NOT KNOW THEY ARE DEAD, AND THE DEAD DO NOT KNOW THEY NEED SOMETHING GREATER THEN THEMSELVES THEN YOU'VE MADE YOUR POINT.

BECAUSE MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT IN THE SENSE AS SOMEONE MENTIONED....ADAM AND EVE NEEDED TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THEM SELVES

OR THAT THE LAW WAS GIVEN TO POINT TO SIN IN US.

WALKING IN THE COURSE OF THIS WORLD..IS TO OBEY The Spirit of Satan...

Are we saying that people in which God made in His image...cannot want or will anything bigger then themselves?

The question then can we be what we are not.
And maybe I answered my own question

Not without knowledge..

For if I grew up as Lots Daughters thinking they were the end of the world...would I do anything other than my knowledge presents

Meaning then our system of perceived ideals produces only what it can think.

However once one knows another knowledge are they forced to be accepting of it. Yet the fact they have knowledge now makes themselve accountable for their own fate.

Yet they still choose.

So then the knowledge of sin is what would make one know they had a natural conscience?

Or can the conscience on it's own cannot perceive a sinful nature without knowlege.

With that said from reverse flip, on the thought on Adam and Eve's Story.... the tree
Was the knowledge of good and evil.

They initially knew no sin too...
Until
They chose Satan's advise and not God's command.

If now they knew Good and evil
What was the fall. Knowing good and evil, Doing evil or disobeying the one that has created and protected them, by eating from the tree?

I think it was disobedience
Therefore now one has to obey the truth
By believing who brings life.

What does all this mean...not sure just where my thoughts led.

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It's difficult for me to follow you on this, but I have some thoughts:
1. Knowledge is much more than mental information, as it involves the whole being including the will and the spirit. So, knowledge of good and evil is not mere experience. Mankind became determiners of good and evil because of separation from God spiritually. In the parable of the virgins, Jesus said to the foolish "I don't know you," meaning He chooses not to know them. Since God is omniscient, if He says "I don't know you," he is rejecting them.
2. The conscience of natural man involves only his instincts, learning, and experience, and the natural fears and sense of responsibility that goes with it. When a person is regenerated, their conscience is strongly influenced by the Spirit, so there is a spiritual dimension and set of desires that the unregenerate don't have.
3. The spiritually dead don't know they are spiritually dead - 1 Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This means that if a person hears that Christ saves from sin, the unregenerate person doesn't think he needs to respond to such a message, as he thinks it nothing but religious mumbo jumbo. Eph. 2 telling us we were spiritually dead is revelation from God, so we can't know that naturally.
4. Free will is the problem, not the solution. The way the term is used in this forum presumes that the human will is separated from God, thus the term "free," meaning free from God. This is the essential argument of every person who advocates for it. And if the human will is separated from God, then it is not reconciled. So then, God didn't create us with a "free will" in that sense. We were created to live in harmony with His will, and so our desires were created to be in harmony with God's desires. This says that we were created to be led by the Spirit. In the fall, our desires became twisted and bent and conceited, and this is the result of autonomy that is separated from God and out of harmony with His will. So then, fallen man's autonomy is evil, because of that spiritual separation. We must be reconciled to God in Christ, and this takes living in faith. Then our will becomes no longer free for sinning, thus no "free will" in the spiritual sense, as we are living in God's will.
TD

Hammster said:

You used Acts 16 as a proof text. I’m asking for specifics. Your reply looks like you are dodging. Again, where specifically does Acts 16 say or show that faith precedes regeneration?

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You did not answer my question. What did Paul tell the Jailer? How did he reply when asked how to be saved? You are the one dodging the obvious answer.

Hammster said:

I may have missed it, but I didn’t ignore it. Which post?

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Let me paraphrase: Every man is spirit and flesh.
Job 32:8 - But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
So when we read:
1 Corinthians 2:14

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

We don't assume men cannot understand spiritual things if he is willing.
Matthew 7:7Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…

Do you really believe God turns away anyone who is truly seeking? No where does it say the spirit of man can't seek God. It says we can't in the flesh, but we are more than flesh.

Psalm 42: 7Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfalls; all Your breakers and waves have rolled over me.
Sit by the sea sometime and see if your spirit does not react to God's majesty. Even people who know nothing of God are awed by his creation. God doesn't just speak in one way. He reaches out to people in a multitude of ways. If they don't seek him because of it, that's on them for clinging only to their flesh. God seeks all men.

bling said:

What do you mean by “totally depraved spiritually”, because we might be in agreement?

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Yes, the way I read the NT is the gospel is spiritual in nature. So when Paul described the human condition in Rom. 3:10-18 (the spiritual condition of the unregenerate, that is, those under sin), he is talking about their relationship with God. I get the idea that many people confuse these words with what they experience in the natural, and what they reason in their minds. So, we have people thinking they are "basically a good person," because they reason that they aren't as full of the bitterness it describes. But after a person comes into the light of the gospel and embraces the revelation of the scripture, they begin to understand just how bitter they have been in spirit. In my own experience, I thought I was essentially a happy person when I was doing my own thing. But after coming to Christ and learning how to live the Christian life, I came to realize how evil, conceited, and bitter I was, and only after years of studying scripture to understand it, I now can see clearly that I was a hater of God. I did not know that at first. So, when Paul wrote that we were dead in sin, I now see just how dead I was; it means "without God in the world." So, God must speak to a person's spirit and reveal Himself, and the way I read the NT, that only happens when a person is born of the Spirit. It is a spiritual event, not a natural one, and therefore can't be determined by natural means. This is essentially the teaching of Total Depravity. It means spiritually.

The “fall” is not used in scripture to describe Adam and Eve’s first sin. We know humans did obtain “knowledge of good and evil”, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

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This knowledge is not mere experience. The serpent persuaded Eve to partake, which presumes that knowledge was a good thing, and Eve believed it. But we know that she was deceived. This kind of knowledge is a determination, and so there came a separation between God and man at that point, and this is why we call it "the fall." It's not a fall from grace, but a fall from God, and from a right standing with Him.

It also means we became spiritually dead, and this is what Paul is writing about in Eph. 2. The term "free will" as it is used in this forum means that human will is separated from God's will, and the implication is that it is not reconciled to God. In this sense, "free will," or autonomy, is the problem, because we were created to be led by the Spirit and be in harmony with God's will.

Gen. 3:22 "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.'" This means that man was separated from God, had a will "free" from God, and determined for himself what is good and evil. So this knowledge has self-willed determination in it.

Ro. 3:10-18 is very poetic and at least some is a hyperbole like:

“Their throats are open graves… “

“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”

“ruin and misery mark their ways”

But lets stick to: “no one righteous, not even one;11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

I am not saying the unbelieving sinner can do anything noble, worthy, righteous, or beneficial to others or God. 1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

All unbelieving sinners do not have Godly type Love, so they are nothing and gain nothing.

But can the sinner do “something”?

Jesus could use any word He wanted to best communicate, so describing the prodigal son in the foreign land twice Christ used “dead”, so by Jesus’ definition of a spiritually “dead” person, that person can for purely selfish reasons turn to his father. In like selfish reasoning and for the same motive spiritually “dead” sinners can turn to God. This is not righteous since unselfishness is righteous and the person is doing it for selfish reasons. The sinner is not doing something worthy or honorable since he/she is wimping out, giving up and surrendering to their enemy while they are still hating their enemy, but like a surrendering soldier in battle the soldier is just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from his/her enemy. They may realize they really should be tortured to death for their previous war crimes, but God showers them with gifts which include Godly type Love and eternal life.

The unbelieving sinner is not “saving himself” any more than the prodigal son “saved” himself, all the saving belongs to the Father.

I fully agree the unbelieving (hell bound) sinner has no reason to Love God, he/she does not even have the Love to Love God. It is only after the unbelieving sinner willingly accepts God’s sacrificial pure charity as charity that the sinner is showered with unbelievable gifts, the greatest being Godly type love and eternal life.

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If we understand Paul's teaching in Eph. 2:1-10, the sinner can do nothing at all in regard to his salvation because he is spiritually dead - "without God in the world." And until God interrupts his life with the gospel and conviction of the Spirit, he will not do anything or choose anything in regard to his salvation. Faith in the gospel is a spiritual matter, and it takes a spiritual person to perform it.

Biblical faith is not a mere mental idea or acknowledgement of what is true, which is how the world defines it. Biblical faith finds understanding of what God says about Christ, and therefore obedience follows 100%. Not saying it can't be resisted, since it is likely we all felt and experienced resistance to the gospel message.

But obedience is the result (fruit) of faith in Christ, and the decision to submit is only made after God has revealed Himself in the message - it is a supernatural event accomplished in the spiritual dimension. The understanding about Christ needed to respond to the gospel takes God revealing Himself and what He is about to individuals.

So, the point is that an unbelieving sinner will never willing accept God's charity unless God grants him understanding of it, as Jesus said "no one can come to me except the Father draw him." This metaphor essentially means that God must give understanding to a person by making him spiritual, as 1 Cor. 2:14 teaches.

And in reference to the prodigal son, the way I understand it from Paul's teaching is that the man was born again when he "came to his senses" and realized that his father's house had blessings, and he had the hope that he could return and be accepted in some way. And that realization is the very knowledge and wisdom that only comes from above. The parable's setting is the natural realm, but teaches us spiritual truth.
TD

tdidymas said:

It's difficult for me to follow you on this, but I have some thoughts:
1. Knowledge is much more than mental information, as it involves the whole being including the will and the spirit. So, knowledge of good and evil is not mere experience. Mankind became determiners of good and evil because of separation from God spiritually. In the parable of the virgins, Jesus said to the foolish "I don't know you," meaning He chooses not to know them. Since God is omniscient, if He says "I don't know you," he is rejecting them.
2. The conscience of natural man involves only his instincts, learning, and experience, and the natural fears and sense of responsibility that goes with it. When a person is regenerated, their conscience is strongly influenced by the Spirit, so there is a spiritual dimension and set of desires that the unregenerate don't have.
3. The spiritually dead don't know they are spiritually dead - 1 Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This means that if a person hears that Christ saves from sin, the unregenerate person doesn't think he needs to respond to such a message, as he thinks it nothing but religious mumbo jumbo. Eph. 2 telling us we were spiritually dead is revelation from God, so we can't know that naturally.
4. Free will is the problem, not the solution. The way the term is used in this forum presumes that the human will is separated from God, thus the term "free," meaning free from God. This is the essential argument of every person who advocates for it. And if the human will is separated from God, then it is not reconciled. So then, God didn't create us with a "free will" in that sense. We were created to live in harmony with His will, and so our desires were created to be in harmony with God's desires. This says that we were created to be led by the Spirit. In the fall, our desires became twisted and bent and conceited, and this is the result of autonomy that is separated from God and out of harmony with His will. So then, fallen man's autonomy is evil, because of that spiritual separation. We must be reconciled to God in Christ, and this takes living in faith. Then our will becomes no longer free for sinning, thus no "free will" in the spiritual sense, as we are living in God's will.
TD

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Sounds good..I must read it a couple of times.
Point being since God is b4 all things....it seems to me regeneration would come first

tdidymas said:

It's difficult for me to follow you on this, but I have some thoughts:
1. Knowledge is much more than mental information, as it involves the whole being including the will and the spirit. So, knowledge of good and evil is not mere experience. Mankind became determiners of good and evil because of separation from God spiritually. In the parable of the virgins, Jesus said to the foolish "I don't know you," meaning He chooses not to know them. Since God is omniscient, if He says "I don't know you," he is rejecting them.
2. The conscience of natural man involves only his instincts, learning, and experience, and the natural fears and sense of responsibility that goes with it. When a person is regenerated, their conscience is strongly influenced by the Spirit, so there is a spiritual dimension and set of desires that the unregenerate don't have.
3. The spiritually dead don't know they are spiritually dead - 1 Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This means that if a person hears that Christ saves from sin, the unregenerate person doesn't think he needs to respond to such a message, as he thinks it nothing but religious mumbo jumbo. Eph. 2 telling us we were spiritually dead is revelation from God, so we can't know that naturally.
4. Free will is the problem, not the solution. The way the term is used in this forum presumes that the human will is separated from God, thus the term "free," meaning free from God. This is the essential argument of every person who advocates for it. And if the human will is separated from God, then it is not reconciled. So then, God didn't create us with a "free will" in that sense. We were created to live in harmony with His will, and so our desires were created to be in harmony with God's desires. This says that we were created to be led by the Spirit. In the fall, our desires became twisted and bent and conceited, and this is the result of autonomy that is separated from God and out of harmony with His will. So then, fallen man's autonomy is evil, because of that spiritual separation. We must be reconciled to God in Christ, and this takes living in faith. Then our will becomes no longer free for sinning, thus no "free will" in the spiritual sense, as we are living in God's will.
TD

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I was thinking out Loud...and did not want to lose my thoughts ...I believe God gave me the first 2 passages THAT I HAD wrote in part IN ORDER To help explain or give me an understanding of the subject. "can the dead cry out" The Baptism in the Red Sea with the Trinity in mind, and When God tells Abram in GENESIS TO WALK before Him.

I was speaking to my spouse about the second passage. And what came to me is that God calls things into existence. Everything is made by him through Him and for Him. We some how can fall into His will but not without falling into His Grace or what He has already spoken, through obedience to His son.

I haven't thought about the Red sea Baptism yet and the part the Trinity plays in helping to understand this Subject.

Hopefully God will give me understanding in His time.

But the rest of my questions I didn't mind if you had Ideals on them. I never really had to think on this subject until now. I believed Dallas Willard that Regeneration came first...but never tested it against any common Ideals.

corinth77777 said:

If I recall correctly...What statements and clarifications did they give... Did they even use the words Eternal security or perserverence of the Saints....if you could quote something they have witten.

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Look up the doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace. They will explain what John Calvin taught on the subject.

corinth77777 said:

I was thinking out Loud...and did not want to lose my thoughts ...I believe God gave me the first 2 passages THAT I HAD wrote in part IN ORDER To help explain or give me an understanding of the subject. "can the dead cry out" The Baptism in the Red Sea with the Trinity in mind, and When God tells Abram in GENESIS TO WALK before Him.

I was speaking to my spouse about the second passage. And what came to me is that God calls things into existence. Everything is made by him through Him and for Him. We some how can fall into His will but not without falling into His Grace or what He has already spoken, through obedience to His son.

I haven't thought about the Red sea Baptism yet and the part the Trinity plays in helping to understand this Subject.

Hopefully God will give me understanding in His time.

But the rest of my questions I didn't mind if you had Ideals on them. I never really had to think on this subject until now. I believed Dallas Willard that Regeneration came first...but never tested it against any common Ideals.

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"Walk before me" could mean, and this is only if God has a Faith.....and that is calling things into existence, that God's Faith was already exercised....as His word from the beginning of time has already went out. And all it means is obedience puts us in alignment with His will that already went out. That is of course if His will is His word.
So what part may this play in the understanding of can the dead cry out on their own....Is the Fact God's will is before man.

corinth77777 said:

"Walk before me" could mean, and this is only if God has a Faith.....and that is calling things into existence, that God's Faith was already exercised....as His word from the beginning of time has already went out. And all it means is obedience puts us in alignment with His will that already went out. That is of course if His will is His word.
So what part may this play in the understanding of can the dead cry out on their own....Is the Fact God's will is before man.

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I'm not sure I understand your question. My understanding of walking before God is that we believe He is for us, and we submit to His will because we want to please Him in all things. It means walking in that faith of relying on God to guide us, and use our imagination as a tool of inspiration of God's presence and glory.

And not sure what you mean by "the dead cry out on their own." I think that spiritually dead people cry out because their lusts are not satisfied. But only spiritual people who know God and draw near to Him can cry out to Him for spiritual satisfaction.
TD