If Trump is obstructing because he knows he is guilty

tall73

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The Supreme Court agreed to hear the similar Nixon case regarding whether he had to turn over the tapes, without going through the usual process.

I am sure the media would be happy to point this out to put pressure. They opted instead to push the case without all the information.
 
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Bobber

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No, it isn't. Executive privilege, as established by the courts, cannot be exercised in a blanket manner as Trump did.
I never said a President can use EP without being challenged on his right to do so. But that challenge is to take place in the Court and if they don't rule in his favour then to continue on becomes an illegal obstruction. You're saying he CANNOT use it as he did.....so your judgment is on the same level as the Supreme Court? I get it, that's your opinion but it never should be taken too seriously as a matter of law.
 
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FireDragon76

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They KNOW what happened--or did not happen.

What the House wanted was to present a sketchy indictment and then force the Senate to start all over from scratch in order to make this charade be so drawn-out that it remains unsettled even into primary season and, hopefully, up to the time of the national nominating conventions. It could then be front and center as part of their campaigning.

In no wise should the Senate fall for that.

You know, just throwing around words like "sketchy indictment" doesn't make it so.

It is not within Trump's legitimate rights to withhold Congressionally approved funds just because other countries won't do political favors for him.
 
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Bobber

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The Supreme Court agreed to hear the similar Nixon case regarding whether he had to turn over the tapes, without going through the usual process.

I am sure the media would be happy to point this out to put pressure. They opted instead to push the case without all the information.

An interesting point. Republican Senators can ask House managers why they have withheld what they the House consider to be necessary information to make their case? It was in their power to do so. If Trump resisted it it was in their power to take the issues to the Courts. Didn't have time? Seems like they had 3 weeks they wasted by not sending over the Articles of Impeachment.

Seems like they've still got all the time to waste for even now by demanding certain witnesses it would still have to go through the Courts as EP would still be employed. So what? They tie up all the time in the Senate while they're supposed to be the ones creating the case for Impeachment? A fact that will NEVER be changed. The House did not do their job and they have no one to blame but themselves.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I never said a President can use EP without being challenged on his right to do so. But that challenge is to take place in the Court and if they don't rule in his favour then to continue on becomes an illegal obstruction. You're saying he CANNOT use it as he did.....so your judgment is on the same level as the Supreme Court? I get it, that's your opinion but it never should be taken too seriously as a matter of law.
I'm saying that, based on the previous ruling of the Supreme Court, he cannot use it as he did. In US v Nixon, the SC stated that executive privilege was not blanket immunity. It could only be applied if a valid reason was provided. The Trump administration has provided no reason at all and has declared blanket immunity from any subpoenas related to Ukraine - this is, to me, a clear violation of the precedent laid down by US v Nixon, especially in light of the fact that some material requested by the House has since been released under FOIA requests (meaning that it wasn't actually privileged information).

I'm torn on whether the House should have gone to court over it. On the one hand, I want this information to see the light of day. However, I am concerned that the Supreme Court, in its current form, would rule in favor of the President despite the clear precedent. Kavanaugh has stated before that he disagrees with the ruling in US v Nixon, and the conservative members of the Court have largely ruled in favor of increasing Presidential powers. I'm also reasonably certain that the case would have been tied up long enough that the impeachment trial would not have finished before the 2020 election. There is precedent for expediting the case to the USSC (again, US v Nixon), but that requires the consent of the Court.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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They do have options to expedite at the supreme court. And now we are back to the primary goal of resolved before the election rather than the principle.
The reason for wanting it resolved before the election is one of principle - one of the articles of impeachment is related to Trump's efforts to illegally influence the 2020 election. To not resolve the matter prior to the election would taint the results.
 
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wing2000

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I'm saying that, based on the previous ruling of the Supreme Court, he cannot use it as he did. In US v Nixon, the SC stated that executive privilege was not blanket immunity. It could only be applied if a valid reason was provided. The Trump administration has provided no reason at all and has declared blanket immunity from any subpoenas related to Ukraine - this is, to me, a clear violation of the precedent laid down by US v Nixon, especially in light of the fact that some material requested by the House has since been released under FOIA requests (meaning that it wasn't actually privileged information).

I'm torn on whether the House should have gone to court over it. On the one hand, I want this information to see the light of day. However, I am concerned that the Supreme Court, in its current form, would rule in favor of the President despite the clear precedent. Kavanaugh has stated before that he disagrees with the ruling in US v Nixon, and the conservative members of the Court have largely ruled in favor of increasing Presidential powers. I'm also reasonably certain that the case would have been tied up long enough that the impeachment trial would not have finished before the 2020 election. There is precedent for expediting the case to the USSC (again, US v Nixon), but that requires the consent of the Court.

One other point: The seven subpoenas raised by the House were essentially ignored by the White House. The White House has yet make an actual claim for executive privilege. I don't see how the USSC would ever approve a blanket claim of privilege....
 
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tall73

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The reason for wanting it resolved before the election is one of principle - one of the articles of impeachment is related to Trump's efforts to illegally influence the 2020 election. To not resolve the matter prior to the election would taint the results.

a. They didn't resolve it. They know the Senate will vote it and move on.

b. With the press over this current issue he could be doing a hundred other things we would never know about.

c. The only way to see the evidence is the courts. If they appealed to the Supreme Court to take it up it might get done well before the election.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Wouldn't he just say no to the Senate as well if they wanted to call witnesses, requiring the same fight in the courts?

If the goal was truly to hear from the witnesses then a battle in the courts seems the way to obtain the testimony, even if it took a while.

So now we have both sides with a narrative for their voters, but no testimony from those close to the situation.
If Trump can defy both the House and then the Senate, what’s to say he won’t also try to defy the courts?

The House and Senate have to enforce their legal power to impeach without having to go to the courts for permission to do so. The Constitution flatly and plainly grants the powers of impeachment to the Congress and no one else.
 
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tall73

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If Trump can defy both the House and then the Senate, what’s to say he won’t also try to defy the courts?

The House and Senate have to enforce their legal power to impeach without having to go to the courts for permission to do so. The Constitution flatly and plainly grants the powers of impeachment to the Congress and no one else.

Because if the ignored both them and the courts the case for impeachment would be beyond clear, even for Republicans.

In the meantime, some of us would just like to see the evidence.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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Because if the ignored both them and the courts the case for impeachment would be beyond clear, even for Republicans.

In the meantime, some of us would just like to see the evidence.

I’ll need to see some evidence for this. I don’t believe they would care at all. They will ride or die with Trump no matter what.
 
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FireDragon76

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I predict however that will be the judgment of history.

I don't think history books centuries from now are going to have a favorable opinion of Donald Trump- if there are history books at all.
 
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SimplyMe

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I predict however that will be the judgment of history.

I can't agree with this, particularly with the secondary information that is already coming out (such as Lev Parnas). Granted, I'm not sure that history will be kind to Democrats -- saying that they should have been more "serious" including going to court to get around "Executive Privilege" -- though I think history will be less kind to Republicans for knowing what Trump did yet finding excuses for him, for political reasons.
 
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FireDragon76

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If Trump can defy both the House and then the Senate, what’s to say he won’t also try to defy the courts?

The House and Senate have to enforce their legal power to impeach without having to go to the courts for permission to do so. The Constitution flatly and plainly grants the powers of impeachment to the Congress and no one else.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Congress is an equal branch of government, no matter how much some people have peddled in cynicism to the contrary.
 
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tall73

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I’ll need to see some evidence for this. I don’t believe they would care at all. They will ride or die with Trump no matter what.

How would I provide evidence of what they would do if Trump disregarded the court action if the House would not push the court action? It is a counter-factual.

But if we know the republicans will not do anything, then this is all about optics. At least if we tried to go through the courts it would clarify it further.
 
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tall73

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I can't agree with this, particularly with the secondary information that is already coming out (such as Lev Parnas). Granted, I'm not sure that history will be kind to Democrats -- saying that they should have been more "serious" including going to court to get around "Executive Privilege" -- though I think history will be less kind to Republicans for knowing what Trump did yet finding excuses for him, for political reasons.

Agreed, but the Democrats could pursue the court matter and remove their side of that. If it didn't work, at least they tried.
 
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KCfromNC

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I have heard all of that testimony. But there is a reason the other is still desired. I agree I don't think there is a good reason. But then I don't think there is a good reason for a lot of what they keep from the public.

So why not go to the courts and get that info?
Because it would be a waste of time.

The testimony already out there is convincing, consistent and fact-based. Some people still ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist. Getting even more testimony isn't going to change their minds. And it will just delay the process, perhaps opening the door for Donald to continue to court foreign interference in the upcoming election.

Given all the people who have already said that Donald did it, do you really think that adding a few more will suddenly make the GOP stop supporting him? I don't see why anyone would fall for this tactic. Put the blame on this where it belongs.
 
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