How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

Mark Quayle · Jan 23, 2020

Kylie said:
If there's only one door, then I have no choice.

If I jump out of a plane, then there's only one direction I can go. I am not choosing to go down.

Your point is moot. You had no choice in being born, where you were raised, etc etc. You could go on and on with that, and yet claim valid choice is yours in your decisions. If God controls your options, and your motivations and other influences, you still choose. Only one predestined outcome does not negate choice resulting those outcomes.

Mark Quayle · Jan 23, 2020

Kylie said:
Seems like you are moving the goalposts. You were talking about things, "that science can't touch." And then you specifically used love as an example. Post 734.

Yes, I did, but the definition of love doesn't add or subtract from my point that science can't touch it.

Mark Quayle · Jan 23, 2020

Kylie said:
But by your logic, the outcome was predetermined, so there was something preventing me from choosing any other ball.

Let me back up and try again, then. Your choice too, agreed, not just the outcome resulting from that choice, is predetermined. You would be right to say that choice is also an outcome, as it resulted from many other choices and their results, Therefore, it is all caused. How that negates choice is beyond me. You have your options before you --you do choose. You want to say that if the choice is predetermined, that there were no options? Of course there were --from your point of view-- and so you chose.

Mark Quayle · Jan 23, 2020

Kylie said:
Seems like you are moving the goalposts. You were talking about things, "that science can't touch." And then you specifically used love as an example. Post 734.

lol, I wish they would provide a page of the responses between two people only;. I get lost. Anyway, this has been fun. Thank you.

MissRowy · Jan 23, 2020

I think the only way you can do that is if you start a debate. And its refreshing to see people with open minds here

Strathos · Jan 23, 2020

Kylie said:
The manner of my death is not predestined, so I'd hardly say that it's the same thing as knowing the exact details, as God allegedly does.

So you can choose to die one way or the other, you still die. Predestination works in a similar way.

Bungle_Bear · Jan 24, 2020

Strathos said:
So you can choose to die one way or the other, you still die.

That has nothing to do with predestination.

Predestination works in a similar way.

No, it doesn't. Dying of cancer at age 32 is not the same as being run over by a bus at age 8 and is not the same as dying of pneumonia at age 84. If I'm predistined to die of pneumonia at age 84 I cannot choose to end my life early by jumping in front of a bus at age 8.

Michael · Jan 24, 2020

dad said:
Yet the way they have interpreted it for centuries was not the same.

Which only demonstrates that religions can and do change over time, just like science changes over time. Why would that be surprising? Even Christ's life had a direct impact on "religion" and he ultimately changed it and new "books" were added to the Jewish Torah to create a "Bible" as we think of a Bible today. The moral concept of an "Eye for an eye" was ultimately replaced with "love your enemy".

So now we are supposed to abandon the bible and their traditional views and belief whatever the constantly changing claims of so-called science might say!?

The Catholic Church didn't abandon the Bible, Catholics just chose to 'interpret" the Bible differently over time. That simply demonstrates that religion is capable of change, just as science is capable of change.

Who cares? The only thing that matters is if they are in conflict with Scripture.
From my vantage point, if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone question Scripture, I would have a lot of nickels.

A lot seems to depend on how one subjectively chooses to "interpret" scripture. I personally don't think it's a problem to question anything and everything. It's actually healthy IMO. I'd say the Bible as whole holds up to scrutiny, even if some 'interpretations" do not.

One simple way is to ask what I think I asked you and never got a reply. Do you believe in a real Eve who was taken one day from a bone of a created man or not?

Probably not literally in the same way that you presume. I do however see plenty of scientific evidence to suggest that we all share a common female ancestor, a mitochondrial "Eve."

No interpretation needed. You cannot claim God did not form man and created woman from man etc. Period. That would be unbelief, not interpretation.

It depends again on how one chooses to interpret a couple of sentences. I put my faith in *Christ*, not in a literal interpretation of a few sentences from the book of Genesis. According to the Bible, Christ is the living 'Word' of God, not the Bible, and certainly not a subjective (literal) interpretation of a couple of sentences from the first book of the Bible.

Kylie · Jan 24, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Your point is moot. You had no choice in being born, where you were raised, etc etc. You could go on and on with that, and yet claim valid choice is yours in your decisions. If God controls your options, and your motivations and other influences, you still choose. Only one predestined outcome does not negate choice resulting those outcomes.

No, me being born wasn't a choice, no one is saying I chose to be born. I didn't choose to grow up living in lots of different places around Australia either. But no one is claiming they even appeared to be a choice.

What is your point here? You seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

Kylie · Jan 24, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Yes, I did, but the definition of love doesn't add or subtract from my point that science can't touch it.

And I addressed this by saying that love is a subjective thing. I'd say there is no single definition for love that everyone can agree on, not without being so vague that it becomes almost meaningless.

Kylie · Jan 24, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Let me back up and try again, then. Your choice too, agreed, not just the outcome resulting from that choice, is predetermined. You would be right to say that choice is also an outcome, as it resulted from many other choices and their results, Therefore, it is all caused. How that negates choice is beyond me. You have your options before you --you do choose. You want to say that if the choice is predetermined, that there were no options? Of course there were --from your point of view-- and so you chose.

If my choice is predetermined, then it's not a choice. If it's a choice, then it means I can choose something different.

If I present two plates, one with a salad and one with a burger and ask you to choose one by pointing, then I grab your arm and force you to point at the salad, did you actually choose the salad?

dad · Jan 24, 2020

Michael said:
Which only demonstrates that religions can and do change over time, just like science changes over time. Why would that be surprising?

Not at all, backsliding is the normal course of events in ancient Israel, and in modern churchianity. Departing from the faith. Giving heed to fables and doctrines of men rather than the word of God.

Even Christ's life had a direct impact on "religion" and he ultimately changed it and new "books" were added to the Jewish Torah to create a "Bible" as we think of a Bible today. The moral concept of an "Eye for an eye" was ultimately replaced with "love your enemy".

You cannot use Christ as an excuse to disbelieve Scripture! He verified it was true and fulfilled it, and told us His words were life.

The Catholic Church didn't abandon the Bible, Catholics just chose to 'interpret" the Bible differently over time. That simply demonstrates that religion is capable of change, just as science is capable of change.

Pr 24:21 - My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not;

Ps 119:89 - For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Heb 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Probably not literally in the same way that you presume. I do however see plenty of scientific evidence to suggest that we all share a common female ancestor, a mitochondrial "Eve."

Click to expand...

So, no then. You do not believe Scripture, that God created man and from the man took a bone in an operation and created woman. Interesting.

It depends again on how one chooses to interpret a couple of sentences. I put my faith in *Christ*, not in a literal interpretation of a few sentences from the book of Genesis.

Click to expand...

Eve is referred to in more than Genesis.

Maybe you should face the truth here. I doubt too many lurlers would not see it.

Mark Quayle · Jan 24, 2020

Kylie said:
If my choice is predetermined, then it's not a choice. If it's a choice, then it means I can choose something different.

If I present two plates, one with a salad and one with a burger and ask you to choose one by pointing, then I grab your arm and force you to point at the salad, did you actually choose the salad?

Sure. Go ahead and choose something different. Nobody says you can't. But as it turns out....

Michael · Jan 24, 2020

dad said:
Not at all, backsliding is the normal course of events in ancient Israel, and in modern churchianity. Departing from the faith. Giving heed to fables and doctrines of men rather than the word of God.

According to the Bible, the living *word* of God is a Christ, not an inanimate book that has changed over time and been "interpreted" by less than "infallible" human beings. You're essentially engaging in idol worship by suggesting that a lifeless book is the "word" of God. It's not. Christ is the "Word" of God.

You cannot use Christ as an excuse to disbelieve Scripture!

You cannot ignore the statements found in the Gospel of John just because you personally find it inconvenient. The Word of God is not a book it's a *living being*.

He verified it was true and fulfilled it, and told us His words were life.

No, he said *he* was life.

Pr 24:21 - My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not;

You just shot your whole argument in the foot since the Bible has changed over time as evidenced by the fact that Protestant "Bibles" have fewer books in them that Catholic "Bibles" and dozens of various "Bibles" exist these days, including Protestant versions, Catholic versions, Mormon versions, Jehovah Witness versions, etc.

Ps 119:89 - For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Heb 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

You just shot your other foot.

Jesus Christ is the same, but the various "Bibles" of different denominations are radically different and the various books are not even written in their original languages anymore.

Kylie · Jan 24, 2020

Strathos said:
So you can choose to die one way or the other, you still die. Predestination works in a similar way.

The efforts that you are going to in order to avoid the point I am trying to make suggests that it is intentional.

Strathos · Jan 24, 2020

Bungle_Bear said:
That has nothing to do with predestination.
No, it doesn't. Dying of cancer at age 32 is not the same as being run over by a bus at age 8 and is not the same as dying of pneumonia at age 84. If I'm predistined to die of pneumonia at age 84 I cannot choose to end my life early by jumping in front of a bus at age 8.

Kylie said:
The efforts that you are going to in order to avoid the point I am trying to make suggests that it is intentional.

It seems more like both of you are refusing to understand my point.

Just like in the chess example, you have free will to choose what actions you take, but they will inevitably lead to the same result.

dad · Jan 24, 2020

Michael said:
According to the Bible, the living *word* of God is a Christ, not an inanimate book that has changed over time and been "interpreted" by less than "infallible" human beings. You're essentially engaging in idol worship by suggesting that a lifeless book is the "word" of God. It's not. Christ is the "Word" of God.

Those who do not believe the word may see folks that do as blasphemers. Jesus ran into the same thing.
The words from God are alive.

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Ps 12:6 - The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

By the way, folks in the New Testament believed in a real created man and woman.

1Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

You cannot ignore the statements found in the Gospel of John just because you personally find it inconvenient. The Word of God is not a book it's a *living being*.

His words are alive. The words of the word of God are alive. His spirit and word make alive.

You just shot your whole argument in the foot since the Bible has changed over time as evidenced by the fact that Protestant "Bibles" have fewer books in them that Catholic "Bibles" and dozens of various "Bibles" exist these days, including Protestant versions, Catholic versions, Mormon versions, Jehovah Witness versions, etc.

Very lame. translations do not matter, all of them agree on creation, far as I know.

You just shot your other foot. Jesus Christ is the same, but the various "Bibles" of different denominations are radically different and the various books are not even written in their original languages anymore.

They are in the original spirit. You are straining at nats and swallowing camels.

Strathos · Jan 24, 2020

I would tend to agree that Jesus Christ Himself outranks the words of scripture.

Of course, that's only relevant if they somehow come into conflict.

Chriliman · Jan 24, 2020

Strathos said:
It seems more like both of you are refusing to understand my point.

Just like in the chess example, you have free will to choose what actions you take, but they will inevitably lead to the same result.

That's not necissarily true, though. You may win or lose depending what actions you take. No?

Kylie · Jan 24, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Sure. Go ahead and choose something different. Nobody says you can't. But as it turns out....

I think you need to actually read the question, because you didn't actually answer it.

How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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