The fatal flaw of Universalism

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I'm just showing you why the masses disagree with you.

I thought you believed that the "masses" went through the broad gate.
They would sooner believe us than you. We bring good news for them.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
OK, Laz! You see what you see. You will choose to believe what you choose to believe.

If you can see what he sees...
Kudos. That is some MAJOR progress. And it only took 30 pages. Not bad, all things considered.

Charlie24 · Jan 18, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
I disagree with the masses, but why do you decline to answer my Question? Surely there is a fatal flaw in it that you can point out.

I have answered every question you guys have thrown at me, you can't deny that.

It's all to no avail, you will not even consider the points I make. I am wrong before I speak.

You have chosen what you will and will not believe. So be it!

I'm tired of my words being thrown to the wind.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I have answered every question you guys have thrown at me, you can't deny that.

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character?

Der Alte · Jan 18, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
***

<SM>Jesus' entire mission, his raison d'etre, if you will, is to save the world from death, package it up and present it to the Father with a big bow on it, with a card saying 'Love always, your devoted son'.
Not to condemn but to save (hint: it's in his name). You're in effect saying he'll fail in his mission, that some nuts will be too tough for the Spirit to crack. Well, you may be too tough for me to crack der Alter, but when the Spirit shows up on your Damascus Rd, you won't stand a chance lol. The hound of heaven will retrieve your heart and lope back happy.<SM>

***

Don't concern yourself about me, my salvation was made sure probably before you were born. How and when does that change of heart happen to the sinners in the lake of fire?
People who are saved in this life, how does it happen? Through their own efforts or is God the author of their salvation?
If Jesus is going to change the hearts and minds of sinners in the LOF why does Jesus/God let sinners live like the devil knowing they are going to be punished, why doesn't God/Jesus change their hearts in this life? Scripture please.

Lazarus Short · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I have answered every question you guys have thrown at me, you can't deny that.

It's all to no avail, you will not even consider the points I make. I am wrong before I speak.

You have chosen what you will and will not believe. So be it!

I'm tired of my words being thrown to the wind.

Yo...just as you have tossed my Question to the wind. So much for "I have answered every question you guys have thrown at me..." I can deny that.

Der Alte · Jan 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Question @Charlie24
Is this the Word of God?
1 Corinthians 15:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All men are "in Adam" because all men are actual, literal descendants of Adam but "all men" are not "in Christ." Paul did not say "all men shall be made alive by Christ." Note further what Paul says about "in Christ."

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Conversely if one is NOT "in Christ" they are NOT justified and there is NO redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Conversely there is now condemnation for those NOT "in Christ." who walk after the flesh but NOT after the spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Conversely if any man NOT be “in Christ” he is NOT a new creature, old things are NOT passed away and they do NOT become new..

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Conversely if one is NOT "in Christ" they are NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Conversely if one is NOT "in Christ" they are still far off and NOT made nigh.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Conversely if one is NOT "in Christ" there is NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Conversely if one is NOT "in Christ" they do NOT obtain the salvation or eternal glory.

Oldmantook · Jan 18, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Okay, but it seems to me that the only references to the judgment of fire in Revelation pertain to the GWTJ. I agree that the 'dead' from the sea, death and Hades are the subject of the judgment. But keep in mind the nations have all fallen for Satan's lies again and God unleashes heavenly fire upon them in Rev 20:7 after he returns at the end of the millennium. So it seems to me that whoever is 'dead', whether physically or spiritually, remains that way at the first judgment - the resurrection to judgment (first resurrection) being a sentence to the rod of iron for 1,000 years, and since that doesn't work when the devil returns (the law being ineffective to produce true repentance), God escalates it to the fire.

Now, I could well be wrong, because Jesus seems to indicate in Matt 25:41 that the national goats get the fire at first resurrection. But in Rev the second death refers to the lake of fire treatment at the GWTJ for those who are still 'dead' after the 1,000 years.

It would help if there was a clear indication in Rev that the holy fire judgment occurred at the first resurrection.

In Matt 25:41 Jesus orders the goats to depart to the aionion fire I think in reference to the lake of fire whereas the sheep are allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom where Jesus rules with a rod of iron as you wrote. All the unsaved dead that are raised at the first resurrection (Jn 5:28-29; Acts 24:15). Thus no one is still "dead" at the beginning of the millennium. The rest of the dead in Rev 20:5 must then refer to those who physically die - during the millennium. At the GWT, those who died during the millennium are judged according to their works which determines whether or not they end up in the LOF.

At the first resurrection, those raised includes disobedient Israel where God promised them that He will one day fulfill a new covenant with Israel where He will write His law upon their hearts and He shall be their God (Jer 31:31-34). This is not Zionist Israel today which is human ordained; not God ordained. This is the fulfillment of prophecy spoken of in Ezekiel 37 where their dry bones are commanded to come up out of their graves when God will make them into one nation and cleanse them. All Israel will be saved is a theme in both the OT and NT. Thus the law is effective for Israel as God writes the law on their hearts instead of tablets of stone. The law is also effective for some but not all of the gentiles during the millennium as they make the yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles (Zech 14:16).

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Oldmantook said:
In Matt 25:41 Jesus orders the goats to depart to the aionion fire I think in reference to the lake of fire whereas the sheep are allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom where Jesus rules with a rod of iron as you wrote. All the unsaved dead that are raised at the first resurrection (Jn 5:28-29; Acts 24:15). Thus no one is still "dead" at the beginning of the millennium. The rest of the dead in Rev 20:5 must then refer to those who physically die - during the millennium. At the GWT, those who died during the millennium are judged according to their works which determines whether or not they end up in the LOF.

At the first resurrection, those raised includes disobedient Israel where God promised them that He will one day fulfill a new covenant with Israel where He will write His law upon their hearts and He shall be their God (Jer 31:31-34). This is not Zionist Israel today which is human ordained; not God ordained. This is the fulfillment of prophecy spoken of in Ezekiel 37 where their dry bones are commanded to come up out of their graves when God will make them into one nation and cleanse them. All Israel will be saved is a theme in both the OT and NT. Thus the law is effective for Israel as God writes the law on their hearts instead of tablets of stone. The law is also effective for some but not all of the gentiles during the millennium as they make the yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles (Zech 14:16).

Thanks for your post.
This is stuff I have never given much thought. Feeling distant from it.
Do you have any thoughts about what these folks at the GWT will be judged for?
If Satan (and the demons?) are in the abyss, who will be tempting humankind to sin?
Or is our sin nature enough to lead us astray?

And why the re-establishment of OT law?

Oldmantook · Jan 18, 2020

Der Alter said:
Wrong! I conflated nothing. I was talking about Rev 7:14 you are talking about Rev 22:14. Evidently according to Rev 22:14 some of those cast into the lake of fire and/or the dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters, and liars outside the city may be washing their robes. But nowhere does it say all. Maybe you can show me where it says everyone in the lake of fire and/or all the dogs, sorcerers etc outside the city are washing their robes.

Since you cannot read or comprehend, I'll copy & paste again here for your reading enjoyment and enlightenment.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those washing their robes,a that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood.
The New Jerusalem has already come down to earth and God is among His people which you already noted in Rev 21:3. In the next chapter Rev 22, John further describes the city including the lake of fire outside. Note in v.14 note that πλύνοντες is a present tense participle better translated as "washing." Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, WHO IS WASHING THEIR ROBES? Aren't the saints in the city already supposed to have their robes washed and clean?? Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE and SHALL ENTER INTO THE CITY BY THE GATES?? The saints are already in the city so who else is allowed to enter? The only possible answer is THOSE OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire v.15.
Comprende?

Oldmantook · Jan 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your post.
This is stuff I have never given much thought. Feeling distant from it.
Do you have any thoughts about what these folks at the GWT will be judged for?
If Satan (and the demons?) are in the abyss, who will be tempting humankind to sin?
Or is our sin nature enough to lead us astray?

And why the re-establishment of OT law?

Because the law never passed away. Remember Jesus clearly stated that He did NOT come to abolish the law so the law still exists. He came to fulfill the law which means to make full as Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of the law - not the doing away of it. Scripture states that the law is our tutor which instructs us in God's ways and informs us of right from wrong, leading us to Christ (Gal 3:24). Rom 3:20 states that the law justifies no one but through the law comes knowledge of sin. If the law has passed away as so many Christians believe, then there would be no knowledge of what constitutes as sin. If people do not know what is sin, how can they repent of it? And that is why the law is prominent in the millennium when Jesus rules with a rod of iron where those people have to be taught what constitutes as righteous/unrighteous behavior. Jesus did not replace the law; instead the law will tutor/guide them to Christ. After all, we cannot have the law written upon our hearts without knowing what the law entails.

Rev 20:12 states that those at the GWT will be judged according to their works. Jesus judges the 7 Churches at the beginning of John's revelation by works also - whether they be good or bad works. Remember that those (sheep) who enter the millennium are already sinners. They have lived through the tribulation and church age as unsaved sinners but because they showed grace and mercy to the brethren/God's people during the great tribulation, God also shows them grace and allows them to enter into his millennial kingdom. So they don't need to be tempted to sin as they have already sinned. I think those who are born in the millennium will sin anyway as sin is already in this world courtesy of Adam/Eve. Thus Satan/demons don't have to be present during the millennium to tempt people to sin.

Der Alte · Jan 18, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Since you cannot read or comprehend, I'll copy & paste again here for your reading enjoyment and enlightenment.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those washing their robes,a that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood.
The New Jerusalem has already come down to earth and God is among His people which you already noted in Rev 21:3. In the next chapter Rev 22, John further describes the city including the lake of fire outside. Note in v.14 note that πλύνοντες is a present tense participle better translated as "washing." Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, WHO IS WASHING THEIR ROBES? Aren't the saints in the city already supposed to have their robes washed and clean?? Since the saints are already in the city and God is among His people as you have already acknowledged, who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE and SHALL ENTER INTO THE CITY BY THE GATES?? The saints are already in the city so who else is allowed to enter? The only possible answer is THOSE OUTSIDE THE CITY in the lake of fire v.15.
Comprende?

You did not read my post I never said anything different. But I'm still waiting for you to show me where it says everyone in the lake of fire and among the dogs etc. outside the city will be washing their robes. Especially after the angel said "Let the one who does what is evil continue to do what is evil. Let the filthy person continue to be filthy."
Strange that the angel did not say "Let the one who does what is evil forsake his evil ways. Let the filthy person wash himself and become clean."

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Because the law never passed away. Remember Jesus clearly stated that He did NOT come to abolish the law so the law still exists. He came to fulfill the law which means to make full as Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of the law - not the doing away of it. Scripture states that the law is our tutor which instructs us in God's ways and informs us of right from wrong, leading us to Christ (Gal 3:24). Rom 3:20 states that the law justifies no one but through the law comes knowledge of sin. If the law has passed away as so many Christians believe, then there would be no knowledge of what constitutes as sin. If people do not know what is sin, how can they repent of it? And that is why the law is prominent in the millennium when Jesus rules with a rod of iron where those people have to be taught what constitutes as righteous/unrighteous behavior. Jesus did not replace the law; instead the law will tutor/guide them to Christ. After all, we cannot have the law written upon our hearts without knowing what the law entails.

I love you brother, but I am 180 degrees opposed to that idea. Perhaps I will be glad that I am NOT on earth at that time. But if what you say is correct I suppose I will be effected by it in some way. The rules are the rules, I suppose. Maybe I'll take my time in the hot tub. - lol

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I'm tired of my words being thrown to the wind.

Psalm 35:5-6
May they be like chaff before the wind,
with the angel of the Lord driving them away;
6 may their path be dark and slippery,
with the angel of the Lord pursuing them.

Oldmantook · Jan 18, 2020

Der Alter said:
You did not read my post I never said anything different. But I'm still waiting for you to show me where it says everyone in the lake of fire and among the dogs etc. outside the city will be washing their robes. Especially after the angel said "Let the one who does what is evil continue to do what is evil. Let the filthy person continue to be filthy."

Pray tell, who else is left Der Alter??
Obviously, the saints in the New Jerusalem have already WASHED their robes and made them clean. So who can it possibly be who are WASHING their robes? Must be those darn aliens, ETs huh? Since the saved already are wearing laundered linen, who can it be who is still wearing sooty clothing Der Alter? Fact is there is only one choice - the unsaved. And just where might they be? Oh yeah; those dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, etc. outside the City in the lake of fire, in v.15. Any other suggestions? Inquiring minds want to know.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that v.11 comes before v.12. Talk about cherry-picking without paying attention to context. V.11 states he/him, the unjust are still filthy. V.12 however states that Jesus is COMING [present/indicative] soon with His reward according to each man's work. Thus there is still time for those in the LOF to wash their robes. The invitation to come to Christ still exists. V.17 confirms this as practically the whole verse is rendered in the present tense. The ones hearing, thirsting, desiring are able to come to Christ and take of the water of life freely.

Oldmantook · Jan 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I love you brother, but I am 180 degrees opposed to that idea. Perhaps I will be glad that I am NOT on earth at that time. But if what you say is correct I suppose I will be effected by it in some way. The rules are the rules, I suppose. Maybe I'll take my time in the hot tub. - lol

Opposed to what idea? Elaboration please.

Saint Steven · Jan 18, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Opposed to what idea? Elaboration please.

That the law never passed away.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Der Alte · Jan 18, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Pray tell, who else is left Der Alter??
Obviously, the saints in the New Jerusalem have already WASHED their robes and made them clean. So who can it possibly be who are WASHING their robes? Must be those darn aliens, ETs huh? Since the saved already are wearing laundered linen, who can it be who is still wearing sooty clothing Der Alter? Fact is there is only one choice - the unsaved. And just where might they be? Oh yeah; those dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, etc. outside the City in the lake of fire, in v.15. Any other suggestions? Inquiring minds want to know.
Moreover, you overlook the fact that v.11 comes before v.12. Talk about cherry-picking without paying attention to context. V.11 states he/him, the unjust are still filthy. V.12 however states that Jesus is COMING [present/indicative] soon with His reward according to each man's work. Thus there is still time for those in the LOF to wash their robes. The invitation to come to Christ still exists. V.17 confirms this as practically the whole verse is rendered in the present tense. The ones hearing, thirsting, desiring are able to come to Christ and take of the water of life freely.

Are you even reading my posts? I conceded that that those washing their robes may be some in the lake of fire and the dogs, sorcerers etc. outside the city but nowhere does it say all.
Again I mention in vs. 11 the angel said "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still." The angel did not say "he that is unjust let him become just, he which is filthy let him wash and become clean."

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The converse of vs. 14 is "cursed are they that do not do his commandments, they have not the right to the tree of life, and may not enter in through the gates into the city."
There is no salvation mentioned after vs. 14 and outside the city vs. 15 there are still "dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." Of whom the angel in vs. 11 said let them continue their evil ways.

Der Alte · Jan 18, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
My interpretation of it that apparently it is worse to blaspheme the Holy Spirit than Jesus Himself.
I have no idea what God's motive is for it.
I do believe in universal reconciliation (because of the prophecies), so therefore I conclude that nobody will end up committing the unforgiveable, or that it doesn't mean it separates them who do from the love of God forever.

So Jesus did not know what He was talking about when He said "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mar_3:29? Since according to you "nobody will end up committing the unforgiveable sin."
Why would Jesus warn about a sin that nobody can or will commit?

Oldmantook · Jan 18, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That the law never passed away.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The law or Torah simply means "instruction." We are no longer under a guardian/tutor because Jesus is the fulfillment of the law thus we are no longer under tutelage - because the law points to Jesus at its fulfillment. However, that does not mean the law is done away with. That cannot be since Rom 3:20 states "by the law is knowledge of sin." Thus without the law, there is no knowledge of sin. So if the law passed away as you believe, how do people repent of their sin without the knowledge of what constitutes as sin? The 10 Commandments which are part of the law have not passed away have they? Are they still not in effect? People cannot repent if they do not know what to repent of and no repentance means no forgiveness. I realize this is a thorny subject but Jesus clearly stated that He did not come to abolish the law. Paul reiterated the same thing when he wrote: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (Rom 3:31).
We must reconcile our doctrine based on the plain words of Jesus and Paul; not the other way around.

The fatal flaw of Universalism

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Newbie

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Similar threads