LDS One Essence

Peter1000 said:

Thank you for this, but is the "substance" of God and Jesus different from the body of flesh and bone and spirit that Jesus has?

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Glad you asked friend, from the following texts, we learn that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit lives in us. This can only be done in spirit. Jesus in orthodox historical Christianity is fully man and fully God. It would be his spirit part that indwells us all. God the Father being of a spirit nature would also indwell us all as is the Holy Spirit. This is how we as Christians become new creatures.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 2:20
So I am not the one living now—it is Christ living in me. I still live in my body, but I live by faith in the Son of God. He is the one who loved me and gave himself to save me.

Ephesians 3:17I pray that Christ will live in your hearts because of your faith. I pray that your life will be strong in love and be built on love.

Colossians 1:27God decided to let his people know just how rich and glorious that truth is. That secret truth, which is for all people, is that Christ lives in you, his people. He is our hope for glory.

Colossians 3:16Let the teaching of Christ live inside you richly. Use all wisdom to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

The Holy Spirit also lives in us.

John 14:17The Helper is the Spirit of truth. The people of the world cannot accept him, because they don’t see him or know him. But you know him. He lives with you, and he will be in you.

2 Timothy 1:14This teaching is a treasure that you have been trusted with. Protect it with the help of the Holy Spirit, who lives inside us.

1 John 4:13 Good News Translation (GNT)
13 We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit.

1 John 3:24 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
24 Those who obey Christ’s commandments live in God, and God lives in them. We know that he lives in us because he has given us the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:22 Good News Translation (GNT)
22 In union with him you too are being built together with all the others into a place where God lives through his Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
19 Don’t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Romans 8:11 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

9-11 But you are not carnal but spiritual if the Spirit of God finds a home within you. You cannot, indeed, be a Christian at all unless you have something of his Spirit in you. Now if Christ does live within you his presence means that your sinful nature is dead, but your spirit becomes alive because of the righteousness he brings with him. I said that our nature is “dead” in the presence of Christ, and so it is, because of its sin. Nevertheless once the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead lives within you he will, by that same Spirit, bring to your whole being new strength and vitality.

How is Jesus in the Father?

John 14:10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don’t come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work.

Peter1000 said:

Whether you create or beget, the result is exactly the same. God created a man in his image and in his likeness, Adam. Adam begot a man in his image and in his likeness, Seth. Seth must look and feel just like Adam. Adam must look and feel just like God.

It couldn't be a spiritual image thing, because Adam would have the same love and holiness and godliness as God, which he did not have.

So again, we believe that what we believe is true, not only from biblical readings, but from actual contact with God and Jesus. Our interpretation is different from yours and I can respect that, so unless you have some extra compelling information to give me we will have to agree to disagree.



You had to go to the GNT to find the word "angel" from Hosea that lived 800 years after Jacob?
I read the KJV and it uses the word "man" and then it says this:
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Notice Jacob not only says he saw God, but for added emphasis he said, "for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved". How many times have you seen that verbiage when someone has seen an angel? None.

So again, I believe I am on solid ground to make the argument that God is made of flesh and bone.



It may be mute for you, but certainly not mute for me.



You simply ignore anything physical by saying "it is figurative". Not a compelling argument against the text. You are saying that Moses never really saw the 'back parts' of God.
When you say figurative, tell me what Moses really saw from that clift in a rock?

If God's glory did not include "back parts" and "his hand", then why did Moses write it in the text? You know he could have just written something like: And God's glory passed by me, and I was protected, or shielded by the Holy Spirit". Then there would be no question about this incident, but he didn't. Moses gave us interesting details that help us understand the physical nature of our God, which you simply ignore.



I will agree with Paul in this way: if God does not want you to approach him, his light can be unapproachable. However, the scriptures are crystal clear that God has shown himself to men and their lives were preserved. Jacob is one, with those exact words in the text. And Moses is another, who witnessed Gods glory and other physical body parts pass by him.
Stephen saw the glory of God, was that unapproachable, no. God was at the baptism of Jesus, was his light unapproachable? God was at the mount of transfiguration, was his light unapproachable there?

It is apparent that when God wants to be seen, he can control his light and power and energy.
Jesus was able to control his light and power and energy while he was on earth. How did he do that? Same principle.

Bottom line, I have given you what we believe and why we believe it. We will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks

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Using your logic of interpretation, God is Big Bird.

At the Baptism, it was the voice of God that was heard. No one saw the Father there.

It comes down to what the leaders of Israel saw, when they say they saw God.

Here is the text for context.

Exodus 24:9-25:1 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the 70 elders of Israel went up the mountain. 10 On the mountain, these men saw the God of Israel. He was standing on something that looked like blue sapphires, as clear as the sky! 11 All the leaders of Israel saw God, but God did not destroy them.[a] They all ate and drank together.

Moses Goes to Get God’s Law
12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come to me on the mountain. I have written my teachings and laws on two stone tablets. These teachings and laws are for the people. I will give these stone tablets to you.”

13 So Moses and his helper, Joshua, went up the mountain of God. 14 Moses said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we come back to you. While I am gone, Aaron and Hur will rule over you. Go to them if anyone has a problem.”

Moses Meets With God

15 Then Moses went up the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. 16 The Glory of the Lord came down on Mount Sinai. The cloud covered the mountain for six days. On the seventh day, the Lord spoke to Moses from the cloud. 17 The Israelites could see the Glory of the Lord. It was like a fire burning on top of the mountain.

18 Then Moses went higher up the mountain into the cloud. He was on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights.

Clearly it was not a man they saw or even a manlike being.

all that was seen was the glory of the lord, not a manlike being.

Exodus 16:7And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the Lord; for that he heareth your murmurings against the Lord: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?

Exodus 16:10And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 24:16And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:17And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Exodus 40:34Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

Exodus 40:35And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

Leviticus 9:6And Moses said, This is the thing which the Lord commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the Lord shall appear unto you.

Leviticus 9:23And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the people.

Numbers 14:10But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

Numbers 14:21But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Numbers 16:19And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation.

Numbers 16:42And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the Lord appeared.

Numbers 20:6And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.

1 Kings 8:11So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord.

2 Chronicles 5:14So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.

2 Chronicles 7:1Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.

2 Chronicles 7:2And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.

2 Chronicles 7:3And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 104:31The glory of the Lord shall endure for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works.

Psalm 138:5Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the Lord: for great is the glory of the Lord.

Isaiah 35:2It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Isaiah 40:5And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 58:8Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.

Isaiah 60:1Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.

Ezekiel 1:28As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Ezekiel 3:12Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the Lord from his place.

Ezekiel 3:23Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face.

Ezekiel 10:4Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the Lord's glory.

Ezekiel 10:18Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Ezekiel 11:23And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city.

Ezekiel 43:4And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

Ezekiel 43:5So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house.

Ezekiel 44:4Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell upon my face.

Habakkuk 2:14For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Luke 2:9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

2 Corinthians 3:18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jesus Himself said this:

Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

If God was using his spiritual eyes, one can not take anything he saw as physical. What is your understanding of this text from the Book of Mormon?

Book of Moses 1
9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his iface, for I was transfigured before him.

Psalm 91:4 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
4 he will cover you with his pinions,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.

If we take this text literally, then God is a big Chicken.

Andrewn said:

I never claimed that Jacob fought an angel. You need to reread message #67.

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Jacob wrestling with an angel is based on,

Anthony Hanson The Prophetic Gospel: Study of John and the Old Testament 2006 Page 76

"The Targum of Onkelos offers 'because I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face',14 and the Targum of Palestine 'because I have seen the Angels of the Lord face to face'.i5 No doubt this substitution was facilitated by Hosea 12.4, where

Hosea 12:3-4 Good News Translation (GNT)

3 Their ancestor Jacob struggled with his twin brother Esau while the two of them were still in their mother's womb; when Jacob grew up, he fought against God— 4 he fought against an angel and won. He wept and asked for a blessing. And at Bethel God came to our ancestor Jacob and spoke with him.

Andrewn said:

You can never prove from the Bible that the Heavenly Father or the Holy Spirit have bodies, physical or spiritual. And yes, we agree to disagree.

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Psalm 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

Using LDS methods of interpreting the Bible, from Psalms we see that God may be a big bird.

Daniel Marsh said:

Psalm 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

Using LDS methods of interpreting the Bible, from Psalms we see that God may be a big bird.

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This is a perfect example of a figurative statement. Because we all know God is not a big bird.

That Moses saw God's back parts is not figurative. Because there are many scriptures that confirm God is in the form of a man. That the leaders of Israel saw God standing before them is not figurative.
Exodus 24:10 (KJV)
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Here the elders of Israel see the God of Israel, and they specifically mention his feet, and mention him standing on a sapphire stone. A specific that the EVR specifically remove??s.
Why did they remove that detail? Is it because they can't abide the idea that God has physical feet? And they want to smooth over the details so they can just say they just saw his glory?

Again, we believe God is physical, we know Jesus is physical, so we feel like we are on sound grounds, even without the JS story. But with the JS story it all makes more sense. The JS story just confirms what the bible is trying to teach us about the nature of God, but because of people like the ERV it misses the point and causes you and I to disagree.

Daniel Marsh said:

Jacob wrestling with an angel is based on,

Anthony Hanson The Prophetic Gospel: Study of John and the Old Testament 2006 Page 76

"The Targum of Onkelos offers 'because I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face',14 and the Targum of Palestine 'because I have seen the Angels of the Lord face to face'.i5 No doubt this substitution was facilitated by Hosea 12.4, where

Hosea 12:3-4 Good News Translation (GNT)

3 Their ancestor Jacob struggled with his twin brother Esau while the two of them were still in their mother's womb; when Jacob grew up, he fought against God— 4 he fought against an angel and won. He wept and asked for a blessing. And at Bethel God came to our ancestor Jacob and spoke with him.

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Again is Hansons commentary more precious than what Jacob says?
Jacob says God.
Hanson says an angel.

Which on should you believe?

Andrewn said:

You can never prove from the Bible that the Heavenly Father or the Holy Spirit have bodies, physical or spiritual. And yes, we agree to disagree.

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You believe that it is because of my background training with JS that I believe what I do. Right?

Well, I say the same thing about you. Your background in your Christian denomination only allows you to see God as a spirit, therefore anyone like me that gives you scriptures that are perfect examples of the physicality of God, you dismiss without further study. Right?

Andrewn said:

This is a pre-incarnation appearance of Christ in the form of a man. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Heb 1:3)

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You are right Jesus is the representation of his essence. Jesus has a resurrected physical body of flesh and bone and spirit, which is an exact representation of his God and his Father(John 20:17).

And if they are "one", how is it that one of them can sit on the right hand of the other?

Andrewn said:

I never claimed that Jacob fought an angel. You need to reread message #67.

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I was talking to Marsh about this.

mmksparbud said:

Jesus Himself said this:

Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

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So Jesus just told us that his God and his Father (John 20:17) has a shape, but these people that he was talking to have not seen it.

Also the people he was talking to had not heard his voice. Does that mean that nobody had never hear his voice. If you think not, read the baptism of Jesus and some heard his voice.

So those people Jesus was talking to had not heard God's voice or seen his shape. That does not mean that other people had seen God's shape, and heard his voice. Like I say, read Matthew 3 and you will see that people did indeed hear God's voice.