The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

sovereigngrace said:

LOL. What are you talking about "emotionally"? It was you that through an emotional tantrum in frustration and through all the toys out of the crib when you couldn't rebut the different scriptural arguments that I presented.

If you have calmed down I will repost where we left off and what you refused to address:

Again, you have made no direct response to the Postrib rebuttal. I'm afraid your interpretation simply does not make sense or add up.

The Greek word tēreō actually comes up twice in Revelation 3:10: “Because thou hast kept (tēreō) the word of my patience, I also will keep (tēreō) thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

The word means:

to attend to carefully, take care of,
to guard,
to keep, one in the state in which he is,
to observe,
to reserve: to undergo something,

The Greek word tēreō derives from the word tēreō which literally means ‘a watch or guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon’.

These words, and their generally-accepted meanings, ooze preservation, care and protection. They fit in with the constant biblical theme of God looking after His people in the midst of a dark evil world. What is more, they fit perfectly with the consistent context and usage of the word elsewhere in the inspired text.

A basic analysis of the original Greek text shows us that the meaning and thrust literally reads: “Because thou hast kept or attended to or taken care of the word … I also will keep or attend to or take care of thee.”

Basically: “them that honour me I will honour” (1 Samuel 2:30).

An examination of the usage of the Greek word tereo elsewhere in Scripture shows the error of the Pretrib interpretation. In fact, it forbids such a forced, bias and mistaken meaning.

The Pretribulation interpretation of the word as ‘to remove or take away’ is shown to be totally untenable. It butchers the literal meaning of the word. It gives it a connotation that cannot in any way fit with its usage elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it forces it to mean the opposite to what it actually means. Applying the Pretrib meaning to other texts that use the same word ends up changing the whole meaning and sense of multiple Scriptures. In fact, many end up saying the opposite to what they are actually saying. Let us look at some examples.

Contrasts

To highlight the irrational and nonsensical nature of Pretrib hermeneutics. We need to apply their mistaken interpretation to other passages that carry the same Greek word.

Matthew 19:17 reads: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) keep the commandments.”

Pretrib would have Matthew 19:17 read: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) remove or take away the commandments.”

This would be absurd. It expresses the opposite meaning to what is intended.

John 8:51 reads: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

Pretrib would have John 8:51 read: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) remove or take away my saying, he shall never see death.”

John 15:10-20 reads: “If ye (tēreō) keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) kept my saying, they will (tēreō) keep yours also.”

Pretrib would have John 15:10-20 read: “If ye (tēreō) remove or take away my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) removed or taken away my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) removed or taken away my saying, they will (tēreō) remove or take away yours also.”

Ephesians 4:3 reads: “Endeavouring to (tēreō) keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Pretrib would have Ephesians 4:3 read: “Endeavouring (tēreō) to remove or take away the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Philippians 4:7 reads: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

Pretrib would have Philippians 4:7 read: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) remove or take away your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

2 Timothy 1:12 reads: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (teros) to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.”

Pretrib would have 2 Timothy 1:12 read: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (tēreō) to remove or take away that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1:24 reads: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Pretrib would have Jude 1:24 read: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to remove or take away you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

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Your claim that I reacted emotionally is another flat out lie. In the other thread I thoroughly rebutted everything you have repeated here, demonstrating exactly why every one of your arguments was either incorrect or meaningless. But you did not even bother to read my rebuttal. Instead, you only reacted to it emotionally, with posts that plainly demonstrated that you had not even bothered to read what I said.

But as this, like every attempt to reason with you, has degenerated into nothing but a childish argument, I am bowing out.

Over and out.

Biblewriter said:

Your claim that I reacted emotionally is another flat out lie. In the other thread I thoroughly rebutted everything you have repeated here, demonstrating exactly why every one of your arguments was either incorrect or meaningless. But you did not even bother to read my rebuttal. Instead, you only reacted to it emotionally, with posts that plainly demonstrated that you had not even bothered to read what I said.

But as this, like every attempt to reason with you, has degenerated into nothing but a childish argument, I am bowing out.

Over and out.

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Exactly! You have no desire to discuss but simply trash those who disagree with your theories and speculations. When Scripture is presented before you, you swiftly run to the hills. Why? Because your beliefs cannot abide biblical scrutiny!!! If they can, then deal with the biblical rebuttals.

Biblewriter said:

This future period is here called two things. It is first called “times of refreshing” and then called “the times of restoration of all things.” The Greek word here translated “of refreshing” is “anapsuxeos,” (word number 403 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which properly means a “recovery of breath,” and thus figuratively means “revival.” And the Greek word translated “of restoration” is “apokatastaseos,” (word number 605 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “reconstitution.” What we need to realize from this, is that neither of these words means, or even implies, a time of judgment. Both of these words mean a restoration, not a time of destruction. That is, the Holy Spirit, here quoting Peter through Luke, is specifically saying that there is a time coming when all things will be restored, and then explicitly says that this is the time of “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.”

So here we have a NEW TESTAMENT statement, made after the new covenant was ALREADY in force, that the things “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” are still in the future, and will still happen. That is, these MANY promises still apply. These are the promises which, as we previously saw in Romans 9:3-4, still “pertain” to Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.”

And finally, there is one more New Testament scripture that mentions this future restoration of Israel.
“27Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?’ 28So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’ ” (Matthew 19:27-28)

The Greek word here translated “regeneration” is “paliggenesia.” (word number 3824 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) In the Greek this is a compound word made by connecting the Greek word “palin,” (word number 3825 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “once more,” and the Greek word “genesis,” (word number1078 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary,) which means “nativity,” or “birth.” So once again, this word clearly speaks of a time of restoration, not a time of destruction. But in this time the twelve Apostles “will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Thus we clearly read, in the New Testament, of a future rebirth, in which the twelve apostles will judge “the twelve tribes of Israel.” Not just Judah, but all twelve tribes, just as repeatedly promised in the Old Testament.

So in conclusion, there is simply no rational escape from the fact that, not just the Old Testament, but also the New Testament, clearly and repeatedly states that there is a time coming in the future, in which the ancient nation of Israel will be restored.

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Peter speaking to the religious Jews in Acts 3:19-21 confirms the concluding nature of the Second Advent, saying, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he (God) shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (apokatastasis or reconstitution) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world (or aion or age) began.”

This text takes us from the beginning to the end. It shows us that from the beginning of time God’s people have been looking of the glorious climactic return of Christ to usher in the end of time and decomposition. This covers the whole old covenant and new covenant era. This confirms that this age began” at the beginning of time, and terminates when Jesus comes. This totally negates the Preterist position.

The whole sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’). Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “’Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language, it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health (recovery).

The “last day” of this age is marked by cataclysmic change. The whole of creation will undergo a wholesale purge of all corruption. This involves the fiery renewal of the globe, the heavens and the elements. It sees the destruction of the wicked and all wickedness. It sees the glorification of the elect in order to equip them to populate the new perfected earth with Jesus.

Philippians 3:20-21 says, “we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able (or, canst) hupotáxai (Strong’s 5293) (or) subdue (or subordinate) all things unto himself.”

Paul identifies the time of the subduing or subordinating of “all things unto himself” with the occasion of the Second Coming, which expressly sees the final act of redemption and the fulfilment of the glorification process. This is unquestionably the conclusion of history – the “times of restitution (or reconstitution) of all things.”

Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage does not locate the regeneration at the Second Coming but is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” Regeneration is associated with the spiritual act of resurrection from the grave of sin, and the new birth act. It is not in any way a process.

Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the Second Coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's Coming. The elect will judge the Christ rejecting nations and the twelve tribes of Israel that have rejected Christ since His earthly ministry. This passage is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” This regeneration refers to those who have been changed into Christ's image. This is evidently talking about the elect of all time. It is the elect (both Jew and Gentile) that will judge Christ-rejecting Israel. A future earthly millennial kingdom is not remotely mentioned in this reading.

sovereigngrace,

1. 2 Timothy 2:12; If ye suffer ye shall reign. Why? Because it was written after Calvary and by Paul and applies to the Church age.
This suffering is present as today right now.
Ye shall reign is future. Why? Because it applies to the physical kingdom which is spiritual also Revelation 5:9-10.
These are saved people from all over the earth and God has made these redeemed Kings and Priests present.
However, AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH IS FUTURE.
If we are reigning on the earth now then what is this future reign? They can’t be both and are not.

2. You say the 2nd coming is the GWTJ which is ridiculous.
The second coming is the battle of Armageddon on the Day of the Lord where all nations are gathered against Jerusalem to battle Zechariah 14:1-2 and 3 where the Lord will fight them.
This is the same as the marriage supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17 that destroys the beast and false prophet v 20 and who were both cast into the lake of fire.

3. The 1000 year reign starts after this and the end of the 1000 years the devil is cast into the lake of fire , where the beast and false prophet are, shows clearly the false prophet and beast is a literal 1000 years apart just like the literal 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd death which is the GWTJ which you falsely claim is the 2nd coming.
That is due to your stuck in the a millennialist theology fantasy world.

4. Show me one scripture that says God makes a full end to the nation of Israel!
There is none!!! He has made them desolate temporary because of their disobedience many times and even as long as 70 A.D. to 1948. They will be made desolate in the last days but not a full and permanent end.
When you say that they have already come to a final end is a false claim against the scripture for God said he would chasten them because of disobedience but his mercy would not depart away from David like Saul.
Saul and his posterity was completely cut off never to return. 2 Samuel 7:13-16.
Ezekiel 37:16-28 is future for Israel and Judah to become one stick and not be two nations divided anymore at all.
David, God’s servant will be King over Israel ad shall be one shepherd : they shall walk in God’s judgements and observe his statutes and do them.
That never happened at Calvary because the New Covenant was for Jews and Gentiles in one body Ephesians 2:14-15 not the physical nation of Israel.
They shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob God’s servant, wherein their fathers have dwelt; which was never promised to the church for there was no New Testament church back then.
And Israel will dwell therein, and their children’s, children forever: and my servant David will be their prince forever.
This was never promised to the present day church but it was to the physical nation of Israel that will eventually become New Covenant believers, all the nation.

5. Now I am sure if you are like most a millennialist you will mention how gentiles we’re proselytized into Israel that you can justify the present church today plus the spiritual Jew theory for replacement theory.
So you can answer any way you want, except honestly. This is why your position will never be taken seriously by the truth of God’s word no matter how hard you try. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. 2 Timothy 2:12; If ye suffer ye shall reign. Why? Because it was written after Calvary and by Paul and applies to the Church age.
This suffering is present as today right now.
Ye shall reign is future. Why? Because it applies to the physical kingdom which is spiritual also Revelation 5:9-10.
These are saved people from all over the earth and God has made these redeemed Kings and Priests present.
However, AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH IS FUTURE.
If we are reigning on the earth now then what is this future reign? They can’t be both and are not.

Click to expand...

I've already showed you in post #890 that the Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

There's no conflict between the reality of us reigning on earth now, the dead in Christ reigning in heaven now, and our eternal reign when Jesus comes.

2. You say the 2nd coming is the GWTJ which is ridiculous.
The second coming is the battle of Armageddon on the Day of the Lord where all nations are gathered against Jerusalem to battle Zechariah 14:1-2 and 3 where the Lord will fight them.
This is the same as the marriage supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17 that destroys the beast and false prophet v 20 and who were both cast into the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

Show me Scripture that describes "the battle of Armageddon"? There's no mention of Armageddon in Zechariah 14:1-2 and 3.

3. The 1000 year reign starts after this and the end of the 1000 years the devil is cast into the lake of fire , where the beast and false prophet are, shows clearly the false prophet and beast is a literal 1000 years apart just like the literal 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd death which is the GWTJ which you falsely claim is the 2nd coming.
That is due to your stuck in the a millennialist theology fantasy world.

Click to expand...

This is speaking about our current era. A thousand is used repeatedly throughout Scripture to describe an indefinite long period of time. The millennium starts at the first resurrection. There was no resurrection before Christ's resurrection. It was the first resurrection.

Is there a physical resurrection in the Bible prior to the believers’ physical resurrection at the second coming that might justly be deemed the “first resurrection”? If so, what is it?

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

4. Show me one scripture that says God makes a full end to the nation of Israel!
There is none!!! He has made them desolate temporary because of their disobedience many times and even as long as 70 A.D. to 1948. They will be made desolate in the last days but not a full and permanent end.
When you say that they have already come to a final end is a false claim against the scripture for God said he would chasten them because of disobedience but his mercy would not depart away from David like Saul.
Saul and his posterity was completely cut off never to return. 2 Samuel 7:13-16.
Ezekiel 37:16-28 is future for Israel and Judah to become one stick and not be two nations divided anymore at all.
David, God’s servant will be King over Israel ad shall be one shepherd : they shall walk in God’s judgements and observe his statutes and do them.
That never happened at Calvary because the New Covenant was for Jews and Gentiles in one body Ephesians 2:14-15 not the physical nation of Israel.
They shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob God’s servant, wherein their fathers have dwelt; which was never promised to the church for there was no New Testament church back then.
And Israel will dwell therein, and their children’s, children forever: and my servant David will be their prince forever.
This was never promised to the present day church but it was to the physical nation of Israel that will eventually become New Covenant believers, all the nation.

Click to expand...

Who said Christ was completely finished with Israel? I just said that the old covenant arrangement is gone forever (including the ancient land boundaries), and their theocracy is gone forever. If they bow the knee to Christ, they enter the Church (faithful Israel). We have been grafted into faithful Israel upon salvation.

5. Now I am sure if you are like most a millennialist you will mention how gentiles we’re proselytized into Israel that you can justify the present church today plus the spiritual Jew theory for replacement theory.

Click to expand...

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

Judaism today is apostate. It rejects Christ - man's only sacrifice for sin. The NT Church is true believing Israel today. We are the true Jews. We are the circumcision in God’s eyes. We are the chosen people. We are the children of Abraham. The elect Jews (the remnant) in Christ's time embraced Christ and were integrated into the wider transnational Church (of all races). This was always God's plan - right back to the book of Genesis. The true believer since the beginning belongs to Jesus Christ (the Messiah - the anointed One). Through faith in Him as man's only substitute for sin they make it to heaven. The unbeliever rejects Him and goes to hell.

We have joined faithful Israel, not replaced them. Thankfully, repentant Jews are still being grafted into the good olive tree.

So you can answer any way you want, except honestly. This is why your position will never be taken seriously by the truth of God’s word no matter how hard you try.

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The opposite is the truth!

sovereigngrace said:

I've already showed you in post #890 that the Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

There's no conflict between the reality of us reigning on earth now, the dead in Christ reigning in heaven now, and our eternal reign when Jesus comes.



Show me Scripture that describes "the battle of Armageddon"? There's no mention of Armageddon in Zechariah 14:1-2 and 3.



This is speaking about our current era. A thousand is used repeatedly throughout Scripture to describe an indefinite long period of time. The millennium starts at the first resurrection. There was no resurrection before Christ's resurrection. It was the first resurrection.

Is there a physical resurrection in the Bible prior to the believers’ physical resurrection at the second coming that might justly be deemed the “first resurrection”? If so, what is it?

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?



Who said Christ was completely finished with Israel? I just said that the old covenant arrangement is gone forever (including the ancient land boundaries), and their theocracy is gone forever. If they bow the knee to Christ, they enter the Church (faithful Israel). We have been grafted into faithful Israel upon salvation.



God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

Judaism today is apostate. It rejects Christ - man's only sacrifice for sin. The NT Church is true believing Israel today. We are the true Jews. We are the circumcision in God’s eyes. We are the chosen people. We are the children of Abraham. The elect Jews (the remnant) in Christ's time embraced Christ and were integrated into the wider transnational Church (of all races). This was always God's plan - right back to the book of Genesis. The true believer since the beginning belongs to Jesus Christ (the Messiah - the anointed One). Through faith in Him as man's only substitute for sin they make it to heaven. The unbeliever rejects Him and goes to hell.

We have joined faithful Israel, not replaced them. Thankfully, repentant Jews are still being grafted into the good olive tree.



The opposite is the truth!

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sovereigngrace,

1. The only thing you have shown is that you can’t give a straight answer.
You started out with giving a one sided answer.

2. The day of the Lord is when the battle of Armageddon happens when Zechariah 14; it doesn’t have to say Armageddon. It is all about Jerusalem and Israel and Judah and the Mount of Olives and the great valley and Christ shall be King of all earth.
Revelation 19 matches up with Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16:16.
And you have the gaw to say it doesn’t say Armageddon and at the same time you said the GWTJ is the second coming and there is nothing about an implication of a coming lot alone saying it mentions Armageddon.
You can’t answer to anything of the questions I asked. You build up straw men all the time because of lack of context.

3. I know the scriptures about a thousand years. That doesn’t mean anything unless it is in the context. That is your problem lack of context.
The thing is to the Lord 1000 years is as a day. That’s fine to apply it because God is in a no time zone.
But you cannot leave out the biblical fact that states and shows that the beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire 1000 actual years apart from the devil being thrown into the lake of fire.
In your context you are saying the 1000 years just means one day so you can squeeze your false statement about going straight into the KoG of the New Heaven and New Earth.
That is the reason you can claim that the 1st resurrection is not really an actual 1000 years apart or that the devil is not really chained up in the bottomless pit for an actual 1000 years.

4. I haven’t got time to go into everything about the 1st resurrection. Suffice to say that Christ was the first fruits.
The 1st resurrection includes all those believers from Christ the 1st fruits all the way to the tribulation saints. This is because it is believers resurrected from among the sinners.
However, each in its own order.
At the end there is only dead tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4 which are those mentioned in 15:1-2 that are Jews for they sing the song of Moses and the lamb. They are resurrected before the 7 vials for the Wrath of God is reserved for kingdom worshippers who took the the beast etc. Revelation 16:1-2.

5. Who are you trying to fool about act ing like God is not through with Israel.
You are just purporting the spiritual Jew theory based on a false interpretation of Romans 2:28-29.

6. The olive tree of Romans 11 doesn’t have nothing to do with the church really.
If anything it shows the gentiles cannot be blessed without physical and spiritual Israel according to Abraham’s covenant Genesis 12:1-3.
Paul never mentions the church in this passage.
In the church both Jews and Gentiles are blessed the same.
In verse 25 it is talking about physical Israel for it is no mystery that spiritual Israel will be saved and they are not blinded, but physical Israel is blinded.
So once again you are wrong and lacking context and are not being fair to exegesis not to mention displaying hypocrisy by accusing us of not showing plain statements and then you turn around and do the same thing. What a double standard. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. The only thing you have shown is that you can’t give a straight answer.
You started out with giving a one sided answer.

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You obviously have a problem with your eyes. Therefore I will repeat. You have skipped around the evidence for long enough. Notwithstanding, facts are stubborn things!

We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

sovereigngrace said:

You obviously have a problem with your eyes. Therefore I will repeat. You have skipped around the evidence for long enough. Notwithstanding, facts are stubborn things!

We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

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Wrong! You are only right in your context not the biblical context! Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace said:

You obviously have a problem with your eyes. Therefore I will repeat. You have skipped around the evidence for long enough. Notwithstanding, facts are stubborn things!

We are reigning now spiritually. The saints are reigning with Christ in heaven and on earth, as He reigns. The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

Ephesians 2:5-6, says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

This is obviously speaking of salvation. Now that we are born from above we are counted as spiritually reigning with Christ.

Romans 8:16-18 says, “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.

God exercises divine power over all creation and He exercise His divine through His new creation. The people of God carry incredible authority of His children. They are on this earth to evade Satan’s territory, curtail his efforts, overcome his power and plunder his house,

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Click to expand...

sovereign grace,

1. Romans 5:17;Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:5-6.
It is talking about salvation. It has nothing of the same as physical rule.
It is the qualification or condition to be able to rule physically.
2 Timothy 2:12; if ye suffer ye shall reign.

2. Romans 8;16-18; Being joint heirs has nothing to do with physically ruling in a physical kingdom reign that is still future.
This is also about gaining Heaven as our home.

3. Revelation 1:5-6; 1 Peter 2:9; Nobody is arguing that we have privilege, status, and authority in God. This is a spiritual in nature. It is not the same as Revelation 5:10 which is future and physical and spiritual.
To make it the same is to thwart the true intent of the context and thus making it your own context instead of the true biblical context.


4. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 are not relevant to the discussion.

5. The spiritual and physical kingdoms are two separate things.
Once again lack of understanding context and failure to be true to the proper context. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

Wrong! You are only right in your context not the biblical context! Jerry Kelso

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LOL. I will accept that as a coded acknowledgement that I am right!

jerry kelso said:

2. The day of the Lord is when the battle of Armageddon happens when Zechariah 14; it doesn’t have to say Armageddon. It is all about Jerusalem and Israel and Judah and the Mount of Olives and the great valley and Christ shall be King of all earth.
Revelation 19 matches up with Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16:16.
And you have the gaw to say it doesn’t say Armageddon and at the same time you said the GWTJ is the second coming and there is nothing about an implication of a coming lot alone saying it mentions Armageddon.
You can’t answer to anything of the questions I asked. You build up straw men all the time because of lack of context.

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It is actually speaking about AD70. It is already fulfilled. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the Second Coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

jerry kelso said:

3. I know the scriptures about a thousand years. That doesn’t mean anything unless it is in the context. That is your problem lack of context.
The thing is to the Lord 1000 years is as a day. That’s fine to apply it because God is in a no time zone.
But you cannot leave out the biblical fact that states and shows that the beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire 1000 actual years apart from the devil being thrown into the lake of fire.
In your context you are saying the 1000 years just means one day so you can squeeze your false statement about going straight into the KoG of the New Heaven and New Earth.
That is the reason you can claim that the 1st resurrection is not really an actual 1000 years apart or that the devil is not really chained up in the bottomless pit for an actual 1000 years.

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And what is your point?

4. I haven’t got time to go into everything about the 1st resurrection. Suffice to say that Christ was the first fruits.
The 1st resurrection includes all those believers from Christ the 1st fruits all the way to the tribulation saints. This is because it is believers resurrected from among the sinners.
However, each in its own order.
At the end there is only dead tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4 which are those mentioned in 15:1-2 that are Jews for they sing the song of Moses and the lamb. They are resurrected before the 7 vials for the Wrath of God is reserved for kingdom worshippers who took the the beast etc. Revelation 16:1-2.

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You are avoiding every single point/question I submitted, and persisting in preaching the party line. The facts, the evidence and the truth negate your reasoning.

sovereigngrace said:

LOL. I will accept that as a coded acknowledgement that I am right!

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Lol,
The coded acknowledgment was that you were right in being wrong in your context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

5. Who are you trying to fool about act ing like God is not through with Israel.
You are just purporting the spiritual Jew theory based on a false interpretation of Romans 2:28-29.

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The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17, Romans 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11, Romans 4:16-18, Romans 4:13-15, Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:7-9, Galatians 3:12-14, Galatians 3:16 and Galatians 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46, John 3:3, Romans 9:33, Romans 11:26 Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:4-6, Philippians 3:20, Hebrews 12:22, 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

6. The olive tree of Romans 11 doesn’t have nothing to do with the church really.
If anything it shows the gentiles cannot be blessed without physical and spiritual Israel according to Abraham’s covenant Genesis 12:1-3.
Paul never mentions the church in this passage.
In the church both Jews and Gentiles are blessed the same.
In verse 25 it is talking about physical Israel for it is no mystery that spiritual Israel will be saved and they are not blinded, but physical Israel is blinded.
So once again you are wrong and lacking context and are not being fair to exegesis not to mention displaying hypocrisy by accusing us of not showing plain statements and then you turn around and do the same thing. What a double standard. .

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This proved we are spiritual Israel. The apostle wraps up his teaching in Romans 11:17-24 with an analogy of a good olive tree, saying: “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (Gentiles), wert graffed in among them (natural Israel), and with them (natural Israel), partakest of the root (Jesus) and fatness (or oiliness) of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root (Jesus), but the root (Jesus) thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches (natural Israel) were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they (natural Israel) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches (natural Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (natural Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?”

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens. But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

All Christian should be mindful of the words of Paul in Romans 11:12: “Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?” This is simply a question. Paul is speculating about what it would look like if Israel would come to faith in Jesus Christ. He continues in Romans 11:14-15: “If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (natural Israel), and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?”

Again, Paul’s hypothesis is a deep and sincere spiritual desire for his kith-and-kin, who he would dearly love to see saved. But for that to happen Israel would have to repent and turn to Christ. Paul adds in Romans 11:23: “And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able (dunatos) to graft them in again.”

We should not miss: this is a conditional promise. The writer here qualifies this important statement by saying “if.” This begs the question: “if” what? He then goes on to explain: “if they do not continue in unbelief.” Now, this is not a unique promise! It is a conditional promise that lies before every single nation throughout the world since the cross. Israel is not prohibited from being integrated into the global body of Christ. They can be grafted into the good olive tree. The Gospel can once again be heard throughout the breath of the much-diminished country, but they must bow the knee to Jesus Christ in repentance when God speaks. No one can say with any credence that God is finished with Israel.

There is no suggestion in Romans 9–11 that Israel’s possible participation in the good olive tree can occur devoid of faith in Christ and separated from His spiritual body – the New Testament Church. The Church is His chosen people throughout the nations today. Any Israeli that truly wants to encounter God becomes a Christian and a part of the New Testament Church. The good olive tree is purely spiritual. Race means nothing in it. Faith in Christ determines participation in, a membership of it.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. Romans 5:17;Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:5-6.
It is talking about salvation. It has nothing of the same as physical rule.
It is the qualification or condition to be able to rule physically.
2 Timothy 2:12; if ye suffer ye shall reign.

2. Romans 8;16-18; Being joint heirs has nothing to do with physically ruling in a physical kingdom reign that is still future.
This is also about gaining Heaven as our home.

3. Revelation 1:5-6; 1 Peter 2:9; Nobody is arguing that we have privilege, status, and authority in God. This is a spiritual in nature. It is not the same as Revelation 5:10 which is future and physical and spiritual.
To make it the same is to thwart the true intent of the context and thus making it your own context instead of the true biblical context.


4. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 are not relevant to the discussion.

5. The spiritual and physical kingdoms are two separate things.
Once again lack of understanding context and failure to be true to the proper context. Jerry Kelso

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We reign now (presence tense) and we also reign in the future. One does not negate the other!

sovereigngrace said:

And what is your point?



You are avoiding every single point/question I submitted, and persisting in preaching the party line. The facts, the evidence and the truth negate your reasoning.

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I made the real point of the true biblical context and you can’t answer to it.
This is obvious because you are the one avoiding every single point/question I submitted to my rebuttal.
All you have done is disagree and then try to claim the facts, the evidence, and the truth negate my reasoning, when the opposite is true.
The error of your accusation has been exposed and points back at your unreasonable reasoning.
Who are you trying to fool with statements that are outright not truthful at all?
Your improper tactics are completely obvious to anyone that has read this post as well as every post you make with your outlandish comments about none of us with opposing views having addressed or posted or given scripture to your point. That is complete falsehood. It shows an antagonistic hatred of dispensationalism.
That is totally disrespectful to the extreme. Your usage of Dispy in a sarcastic and degrading manner bears this out.
Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace said:

We reign now (presence tense) and we also reign in the future. One does not negate the other!

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sovereigngrace,

1. You are talking about reigning spiritually. Who are we reigning over and what do we do in our reigning in the New Heaven and the New Earth KoG all in all? Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

I made the real point of the true biblical context and you can’t answer to it.
This is obvious because you are the one avoiding every single point/question I submitted to my rebuttal.
All you have done is disagree and then try to claim the facts, the evidence, and the truth negate my reasoning, when the opposite is true.
The error of your accusation has been exposed and points back at your unreasonable reasoning.
Who are you trying to fool with statements that are outright not truthful at all?
Your improper tactics are completely obvious to anyone that has read this post as well as every post you make with your outlandish comments about none of us with opposing views having addressed or posted or given scripture to your point. That is complete falsehood. It shows an antagonistic hatred of dispensationalism.
That is totally disrespectful to the extreme. Your usage of Dispy in a sarcastic and degrading manner bears this out.
Jerry Kelso

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Instead of your evasive rants, please address the sacred Scriptures that forbid Dispensationalism.

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. You are talking about reigning spiritually. Who are we reigning over and what do we do in our reigning in the New Heaven and the New Earth KoG all in all? Jerry Kelso

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We reign over the demonic realm spiritually today "in Christ."

sovereigngrace said:

We reign over the demonic realm spiritually today "in Christ."

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You believe the millennial kingdom is now and that we reign spiritually.
You said you believe we reign in the New Heaven and New Earth physically and spiritually with God.
So the question is who are we reigning over in the New Heaven and New Earth physically and spiritually and in what way? Who are the subjects? How do we rule as Kong’s, priests and rulers physically and spiritually? Jerry Kelso