FreeGrace2 said:
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This statement is internally contradicted. If we are saved "initially and ultimately", then there can be NO "next step or stage", as you believe.
I understand your opinion. And that is wrong. There are many parts to salvation, but it occurs immediately when one believes. Your opinion is that people are "partly saved", which is, of course, quite unbiblical.
First you are saved from your past sins.
I challenge your claim here. But you can't meet that challenge to prove your claim, because the Bible teaches that Christ's "once and for all" sacrifice results in salvation that is forever.
Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
How could Jesus "make perfect FOREVER" those who "are being made holy".
But you still have to continue in "the faith" to obtain the resurrection. That's what Paul taught.
Then prove it by quoting Scripture.
Philipians 3:12-16
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
The key to understanding this passage is to understand the meaning of "goal for the prize". What it CAN'T mean is salvation, because, by definition, a "prize" is something WON by a certain action. And salvation is clearly taught in the Bible as being by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT of works. Eph 2:8,9
So, since it isn't about salvation, what has Paul not "apprehended" as of yet? Eternal reward, which IS won or earned by certain actions.
So much for permanent assurance.
So much for your failed understanding of Scripture.
Paul didn't believe in that.
He doesn't believe what you believe. As to eternal security, he certainly DID believe in that.
Acts 10:45 - The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the
gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the
gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 11:29 - for
God’s gifts and his call
are irrevocable.
We are striving toward a goal.
The goal, not of salvation, but of eternal reward, which is earned.
James wrote that a deedless faith couldn't even save you.
James 2:14
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James uses the article with the word faith there. He's not talking about personal belief, he's talking about the system of faith or the gospel. THE faith. Can the faith save him? No, it can't. Because the faith demands obedience both to become a disciple and to continue in it.
The important question here is "save him from WHAT, specifically?" It seems most people error by defaulting to one's soul salvation, but it's clear from the beginning of ch 2 that he was actually referring to hypocrisy, even though he didn't use that word.
Just look at what immediately follows v.14 -
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
Such a person isn't "putting his money where his mouth is". A total hypocrite. Says one thing but does the exact opposite.
Who wants to be called out as a hypocrite? No one. Not even the Pharisees. Which is why Jesus used that word on them so much. They were hypocrites and needed to be called out on it. And James would have been very aware of what Jesus repeatedly called the Pharisees. So he's warning Jewish believers against being charged with hypocrisy.
we know the point of 2:14-26 from v.18, which has the quote marks misplaced.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
You see where the quote marks are placed. But this makes the v.18 meaningless.
If this "someone" only says "you have faith; I have deeds", what follows can't be what anyone else could say to that "someone".
Why not? Because the "someone" just SAID "I have deeds". After telling someone else that "you have faith".
So what follows still comes from the "someone". He is challenging the person he is talking to about their faith.
Here's the challenge from the "someone": you have faith and I have deeds (works). OK, now show me your faith without deeds (works) and I'll show you my faith by my deeds (works).
The point is this: you can't show another person your faith unless you have deeds or works that reveal your faith. It is that simple.
You're right that we're to let our lights so shine among men that they glorify their God in heaven. And telling people the "sinners prayer" is the sum total of salvation is not only morally bankrupt, it's not found in the scriptures.
I certainly agree with you about the so-called sinners prayer. Not in the Bible, and NO ONE ever got saved by repeating words from another.
Everyone gets saved the same way; be believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
When you've finally done what it takes to put yourself into Christ, you have to remain in him. That's what the scriptures teach.
Again, they do NOT. And as usual, I will prove it.
No one "puts themself into Christ". That is preposterous.
Eph 1:13 - And
you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
When you believed,
you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
I'll color code this, for easier understanding.
the red words speak to being placed IN Christ, referred to as "union with Christ" by theologians, and also called "positional truth".
The blue words reveal the WAY a person is placed into union with Christ; by faith.
The purple words also speak of how a person is "included in Christ". The Holy Spirit is a seal.
Now, we must include v.14 for the "rest of the story", as Paul Harvey used to say.
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
The red words refer to the Holy Spirit.
the blue words explain the purpose of the Holy Spirit being a seal, which places the believer into union with Christ; He GUARANTEES our inheritance (salvation).
The green words speak to who the believer is; God's possession, and clarifies for those slow to understand what the "inheritance" here refers to: redemption.
