When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

mkgal1 said:

My belief about an end of sin isn't necessarily a "preterist" belief (there isn't one unified belief in that area). I'm of the belief that the Resurrection, the New Covenant, and the demise of the Old Covenant removed the "condemnation" from sin (the death).....but sin is obviously still around us (and even IN us at times).

However......I don't believe there is "lawlessness" any longer as the Law has been removed. I believe the process of "holiness" or "wholeness" will be continual until all has been purified and all the "dross" burned off (however God will do that? I have no idea). The when, I believe, is up to humanity - because I am of the mind that we are participants in the process. I don't believe that there is an expiration date or time. The label for that belief is: Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki

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So, you believe that everyone is going to be saved one day? Do you believe the devil and his angels are going to be saved in the end? Do you believe there is going to be a literal physical visible return of Jesus Christ in the future? Do you believe there is going to be a physical resurrection of the just and the unjust in the future?

mkgal1 said:

I don't believe it IS a "man-centered" gospel. God is right in the center of all that. God IS interested in humanity. His plan (I believe) IS to draw all humanity to Him and to overturn the death that sin brought in through Adam. The Gospel message I learned as a child is that "God loves the world so much that He came to bring us all life" (John 3:16 and 1 Cor 15:22). ISTM that all Scripture has to be run through those filters.

1 Corinthians 15:22 ~ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.​

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mkgal1 said:

I believe everyone is being restored (an ongoing and current process - not a future event).....made whole....eventually through God's refining fire. I'm hopeful that includes the devil and his angels.....because I believe God's love is victorious and powerful (but I'm certainly not going to get dogmatic and state that ALL will be restored). Yes.....I believe there's going to be a literal physical return of Christ in glory in the future......and that there will be a physical resurrection and judgement of the living and the dead.​

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You are preaching a gospel that is unbiblical and contrary to what Jesus taught!!!

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

You are making the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. You would think Jesus taught: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” Can I tell you, on the authority of this Word, that is a lie forged on the anvil of hell. Christ blows-apart such folly in this important passage.

Your teachers may teach you otherwise, but, the narrow road is NOT the popular road; the majority will never tread it. Most will be walking in a contrary direction. That’s what Jesus says in this Book.

In Luke 13:23-28, we see Christ responding to an important question from the disciples, who asked, “Lord, are there few that be saved?”

Whereupon the Lord replies, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The saddest reality in this Book is that the majority of people go to hell, the minority go to heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 solemnly says: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

The Bible tells us: the majority of people miss heaven. The reason being: because they refuse to turn from their sin. They love sin more than they love Jesus. That is why they end up in Hell.

Jesus said in Matt 7:22-24: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not … done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Do you know what this tells me? Anyone that builds their confidence on self is building their house upon sand. Anyone that builds their confidence on Christ is building their house upon a solid Rock. Fools will disdain the cross with their pride, imagining that they somehow don’t need it. False professors are so in love with self and sin that even on judgment day they want to talk about themselves and present their own works as some type of ticket into heaven.

mkgal1 said:

I don't believe it IS a "man-centered" gospel. God is right in the center of all that. God IS interested in humanity. His plan (I believe) IS to draw all humanity to Him and to overturn the death that sin brought in through Adam. The Gospel message I learned as a child is that "God loves the world so much that He came to bring us all life" (John 3:16 and 1 Cor 15:22). ISTM that all Scripture has to be run through those filters.

1 Corinthians 15:22 ~ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.​

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Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more sin on the new earth. You say there is sin on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more death on the new earth. You say there is death on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more pain on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more sorrow on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more tears on the new earth. You say there is tears on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more corruption on the new earth. You say there is corruption on the new earth.

Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that there is coming a day where “there shall be no more curse.”

This coincides with various other Scripture which see sin, death and corruption end at the second coming. I posted this earlier: it is good to compare Scripture with Scripture. After outlining the dissolving of this current earth (ge) in order for its restoration to a perfect state of incorruption Peter then encourages the believer by saying "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranos) and a new earth (ge), wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Brian Mcnamee said:

Good question it would seem that many nations are joined to the LORD in that day and it may not be a ban on any Gentile visiting or passing through but a ban on the uninvited having their way and overtaking the city. The uncircumcised in heart is more proof that it is a future literal event as the boron again experience is promised to those who are called back to the Mountains of Israel in Ezekiel 37 and also in Jer 31 and this is promised to Jews. Who are not yet nationally recognizing the New Covenant which as Paul said they are blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We are not there yet. There are some tangles to be sorted out in that day they will be clear and there are far more severe tangles in trying to take a historical perspective on it and current events are lining up with a futurist perspective. I like the question and this is how to study lay out the passages and study them thanks for bringing it up.

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Whatever way you look at Premil it contradicts itself. Premillennialist are wedded to the old covenant. Where does it teach any of this in the New Testament? No where! They explain away clear and explicit Scripture with the vague or typical Scripture. They explain away the New Testament with the Old Testament.

The New Testament is superior to the Old because it is the fuller revelation. The New Testament is a more informed, complete and vivid picture of the divine program than that which is contained within the Old Testament. The New Testament picture fills in the incomplete picture given by the Old Testament. It shines light on much of the obscurity and murkiness of the Old Testament. That is why theologians insist: “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.” Steve Lehrer wisely advises: “read the Old Covenant Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant Scriptures” (New Covenant Theology: Questions Answered).

mkgal1 said:

I believe everyone is being restored (an ongoing and current process - not a future event).....made whole....eventually through God's refining fire. I'm hopeful that includes the devil and his angels.....because I believe God's love is victorious and powerful (but I'm certainly not going to get dogmatic and state that ALL will be restored). Yes.....I believe there's going to be a literal physical return of Christ in glory in the future......and that there will be a physical resurrection and judgement of the living and the dead (judgement = setting things right....giving justice). Personally, I appreciate the writing of Father Richard Rohr. He states:

Quoting Fr Richard Rohr ~ It was enough to believe that Jesus “was raised from the dead,” somehow planting the hope and possibility of resurrection in our deepest unconscious. Jesus’ incarnate life, his passing over into death, and His resurrection into the ongoing Christ life is the archetypal model for the entire pattern of creation. He is the microcosm for the whole cosmos, or the map of the whole journey, in case you need or want one. If matter is inhabited by God, then matter is somehow eternal, and when the creed says, we believe in the “resurrection of the body,” it means our bodies too, not just Jesus’ body! As in Him, so also in all of us. As in all of us, so also in Him.

Heaven: The Home of Love — Center for Action and Contemplation​

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Why are you quoting a Roman Catholic priest to support your position, who resides within an apostate "church" full of child molesters?

mkgal1 said:

Jesus and His disciples weren't teaching about hell (I don't believe). They were warning about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. "Salvation" was mostly about their physical bodily rescue out of the city (for their lives - and for the sake of the spread of the Gospel to other regions....and eventually the entire world).....and believing God was behind the rescue. This isn't about hell:

Luke 21:20 ~ And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by encampments, then know that her desolation has drawn near.

Matthew 24:15
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

Daniel 9:27
And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him."

Luke 19:43
For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side.

From the retired Anglican bishop - N.T. Wright:

We should remember especially that the use of the word ‘heaven’ to denote the ultimate goal of the [21] redeemed, though hugely emphasized by medieval piety, mystery plays, and the like, and still almost universal at a popular level, is severely misleading and does not begin to do justice to the Christian hope. I am repeatedly frustrated by how hard it is to get this point through the thick wall of traditional thought and language that most Christians put up. ‘Going to heaven when you die’ is not held out in the New Testament as the main goal. The main goal is to be bodily raised into the transformed, glorious likeness of Jesus Christ. If we want to speak of ‘going to heaven when we die’, we should be clear that this represents the first, and far less important, stage of a two-stage process. That is why it is also appropriate to use the ancient word ‘paradise’ to describe the same thing. ~ Rethinking the Tradition


N. T. Wright’s The Day the Revolution Began | One In Jesus​

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Yes He was! Unfortunately, your obsession with AD70 is preventing you from seeing the truth on other clear matters. Jesus was talking about eternal life. He was comparing that to the eternal destruction that the wicked experience.

Rev 21:7-8 refutes your supposition: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

This same truth is outlined in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 where Jesus alludes to the very same concluding day, saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

The Coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. He is not coming to save sinners but judge them. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:50 clearly states, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer. The “unrighteous shall not inherit” this “kingdom” (1 Corinthians 6:9).

Psalms 37:9-11 says, "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

Here "evildoers" and "the wicked" are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations "those that wait upon the LORD" and "the meek" refer to the righteous. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. Can you not see that? There are only ever 2 peoples.

N.T. Wright was making that statement in regard to inheriting the new incorrupt earth. He was not teaching Universalism, as you are teaching.

mkgal1 said:

I was raised in a Christian home.....attending private Christian schools....and have raised a daughter to adulthood in the Christian church (and in private Christian education) - so your beliefs aren't "new" information to me. I had sat with that for over 50 years.

It's the other way around......that teaching on hell (and never hearing about the destruction of Jerusalem) that was blinding me to verses about the end of the age.....and what a revolution in time that was.​

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Sadly, you have bought into a lie. How sad! You cannot even deal with clear and repeated Scripture pertaining to the judgment and the afterlife because of your fixation with AD70. You are overriding the words of Jesus with your own. One error leads to another. That is why all Bible believing Christians should reject Preterism.

mkgal1 said:

Because I believe he's speaking truth and I appreciate his writing (and I don't believe the Catholic church is all "evil" and/or apostate as your response seems to imply).

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The Roman Catholic Church is blasphemous, heretical, and idolatrous. They teach salvation by good works, they damn millions to hell by their false gospel. You admitted that your mum and dad have been deceived for years. The church prays to the dead. They worship and pray to Mary for intercession with Jesus. They worship dead “saints” and pray to them for answers to prayer.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

Jesus taught in John 14:6: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

This couldn’t be any clearer! There is no Plan B. There is no back-doors into heaven. There is no alternative salvation. There is no other means of man gaining favor with God! There is no other way to become a child of God. There is no other path to be God’s one of God’s elect.

The Roman Catholic Church have multiple stone images that they venerate. They bow down to images. They term Mary "Mother of God." They venerate angels and dead saints. Deuteronomy 5:7-9: “Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.”

The Roman Catholic Church have INVENTED purgatory in between heaven and hell. Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.”

How can you justify sitting in the midst of this?

2 Timothy 2:19 tells us that “Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

1 Thessalonians 5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Prov 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

They say the Pope is the head of their church, when Jesus is the head of the real Church. They teach the Pope is “infallibility.” They require their people to go to a priest for forgiveness, and he supposedly gives absolution from sins. They sell indulgences as a remission before God of the temporal punishment. They teach and practice transubstantiation the wine and bread changing literally into Jesus blood and body.

Galatians 1:8-9: “though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

The Roman Catholic Church say they are the only true church and there is no salvation outside of it. Under paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read, "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.'" (C.C.C. # 816)

The New Catholic Catechism (paras 819 and 846) tells us that a person “could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

They require Roman Catholic Church Baptism for salvation. They do not recognize any other baptizm. They say: "Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (CCC 977).

“Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude" (CCC 1257).

The Lord encountered the same proponents of dead religion in his day, when he confronted the ‘religious’ Pharisees of the day. In doing so, He directly addressed the solemn subject of hell, saying, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.” He then asserted, “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matthew 23: 27&33).

Galatians 1:6-8 warns, “there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed”

The Bible solemnly says: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

They are a corrupt and perverted church. They will not let their priests marry. Their church is riddled with thousands pedophile priests globally. The church is falling apart at the seams. Young people are abandoning the hypocrisy. The priesthood is filled with homosexual child abusers. 10,000s priests have been outed throughout the world annually. This is the harlot of Babylon.

I stand shoulder to shoulder with countless millions of Bible-believing Christian, Protestant Church (meaning protesting churches) that solidly stand against the evil of Rome, including the evangelical/Pentecostal movements. Millions of Catholics are abandoning this evil religious system in North America and South America, and throughout civilized nations. Whole nations in South America are becoming Protestant. The truth is prevailing. Amazingly, you are heading the opposite direction. You are partaking in her hypocrisy. You are condoning her beliefs.

mkgal1 said:

I just want to inform you that I believe comments like this are against forum rules. You can read the SOP for yourself and see.....but this does lack charity (and knowledge, if I may say).....so, if nothing else, maybe go by that standard.

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The RCC is not a Christian church, it is apostate!

The Universalism you are promoting is against board rules:

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism"

mkgal1 said:

If you believe that Christ fulfilled any of the Messianic prophesies (and I hope you do) - they you, also, are a partial preterist (sorry to be the one to inform you of that).

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Futurists, Historists and Idealists believe in fulfilled prophecy. That does not make them Partial Preterist. It is simply accepting what Scripture says!