The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

Al Touthentop said:

It refers to the man's physical body when it is buried in the ground. What do you think it meant when David said

"For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption."

Paul was talking about resurrection here of the physical body. It's what we hope to achieve one day. Jesus said "I will raise him up on the last day."

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Not so simple.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5356: φθορά

φθορά, φθορᾶς, ἡ (φθείρω), from Aeschylus and Herodotus down:
1. corruption, destruction, perishing (opposed to γένεσις, origin, often in Plato, Aristotle, Plutarch; opposed to σωτηρία, Plato, Phileb., p. 35 e.; for שַׁחַת, Psalm 102:4 (); Jonah 2:7): Romans 8:21 (on which see δουλεία); 2 Peter 2:12a (some (cf. R. V. marginal reading) take φθορά here actively: εἰςφθοράν, to destroy); ἐν φθορά, in a state of corruption or decomposition (of the body at burial), 1 Corinthians 15:42; by metonymy, that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable, opposed to ἀφθαρσία, 1 Corinthians 15:50; in the Christian sense, the loss of salvation, eternal misery (which elsewhere is called ἀπώλεια), Colossians 2:22 (see ἀπόχρησις); opposed to ζωή αἰώνιος, Galatians 6:8, cf. Schott ad loc. 2. in the N. T. in an ethical sense, corruption i. e. moral decay: 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:12{b} (some take the word here actively (R. V. text in their destroying), others refer it to 1 above), 2 Peter 2:19; with τῆς ζωῆς added, Wis. 14:12.

Gr8Grace said:

Really? So lets lay this theory out....

Someone who IS building on the foundation of Christ.

They ARE doing good works.

They are abiding in Christ.

These works are burned up, but they will still be saved..........as if through fire.
Sounds a little sketchy don't ya think?

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Not all of the works are burned up, only the works of poor quality.

So do you see now the difference between John 15 which is teaching about an absence of works and 1 Corinthians 3 which is teaching about those who are doing works? They are completely opposite teachings.

Al Touthentop said:

Why? What does it have to do with the scripture we're discussing? Paul said there "for you are God's building." What was being burned up in that illustration was "work" but that work was the people themselves, not random good works.

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No the builder in 1 Corinthians 3 is not being burned up. The “burning up” is figurative, it simply means that God will judge our deeds. The test of fire is simply a metaphor for God’s judgement.

Al Touthentop said:

Paul taught it and Jesus before him taught it.

In that passage he makes it clear that those who are not taught the proper foundational principles of Christ are the chaff that is burned up.

It's you who are dodging by bringing up a passage which describes personal perils at sea as being trials by fire and have no relation to this passage at all.

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Your mixing two different teachings friend. Nowhere in the chapter of 1 Corinthians 3 does Paul mention unbelievers or false professors.

Gr8Grace said:

Hyper grace pretty much describes the Lord Jesus Christ's Grace to the human race....and it is used as some derogatory term?

Read through again.........I see 2, yes only 2 people, glorifying the Lords Grace. The rest............glorifying SELF.


Well I hope you are with me at the Bema seat..............The white throne Judgment is for unbelievers(Those who have never WHOLLY put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.)


Pay attention......people don't even have salvation figured out around here. We go nowhere if we don't have that figured out. We can't walk with Him, divide His word and walk in the Spirit if we are STUCK ON salvation.

We never perish, we have eternal life( NEVER ending life).........if this is not understood, we can't walk with him.........He is ETERNAL.

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Your theology ignores Matthew 7:21-27 as well as Matthew 25:31-46.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These people were condemned by their actions. They were believers who indulged in sin. That is the reason Jesus provided for their condemnation.

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These people were condemned by their lack of works. Again this is the reason Jesus provided explaining why the goats were condemned. They did not abide in Christ and Christ did not abide in them. They did not have love for others.

Gr8Grace said:

You still have NOT shown me......repent or post it. I actually read his posts. Show me the quote.

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metanoéō


Pronounce:

met-an-o-eh'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

“Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:22-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:13-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BNR32FAN said:

metanoéō
Description:
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

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'nuff said. NT 'repentance' means to to change the mind.

Gr8Grace said:

Hyper grace pretty much describes the Lord Jesus Christ's Grace to the human race....and it is used as some derogatory term?

Read through again.........I see 2, yes only 2 people, glorifying the Lords Grace. The rest............glorifying SELF.


Well I hope you are with me at the Bema seat..............The white throne Judgment is for unbelievers(Those who have never WHOLLY put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.)


Pay attention......people don't even have salvation figured out around here. We go nowhere if we don't have that figured out. We can't walk with Him, divide His word and walk in the Spirit if we are STUCK ON salvation.

We never perish, we have eternal life( NEVER ending life).........if this is not understood, we can't walk with him.........He is ETERNAL.

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I do not know nor judge you but your words do not sit with what the Holy Spirit teaches me in the word.

Grace is God's unmerited favour on a ppl totally undeserving!

Salvation is that purchase price paid by Jesus,God's son,the only perfect sacrifice!

God is eternal!

The Holy Spirit brings convictions of sin to a heart,once revealed,a person must BELIEVE,REPENT,TURN FROM SIN,TURN TO GOD,then walk according to HIS words.

If a person keeps unconfessed sin in their hearts and continually rejects the convictions of the Holy Spirit they will eventually turn from God to become slaves to sin.
Once this happens they are no longer in the household of God.........they BACKSLIDE!

Once a person backsides they ARE NOT covered by God's grace nor Jesus blood!

The gift of salvation is free and eternal to all that believe and continue in faith by hearing and doing the word of God,that is the ONLY ETERNAL SECURITY!

I will no longer respond in this thread,say what you will...........THERE IS NO SUCH SCRIPTURE AS ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED!

ONLY GOD CAN CHANGE PPLS INDOCTRINATIONS,,THEOLOGIES,AND THOUGHTS IF THEY SUBMIT TO HIM!I

Otherwise the word tells me those who won't hear....shake off the dust!

FreeGrace2 said:

No. The Holy Spirit never planted any egg. That comes from the woman. And the Father wasn't involved. Are you aware of the Trinity and their individual ministries?

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The Godhead was involved.

We have no detail on if He used an egg from Mary or created a unique egg that He fertilised.

FreeGrace2 said:

You don't like Romans 5:12, huh? OK. No problem. I won't mention it. But, let's stay in the chapter, ok?

14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

v.14 sets the stage regarding the man Adam.
v.15 tells us that "the many", meaning "the masses" or all of humanity, DIED by the trespass of the one MAN, that being Adam.
v.16 repeats the FACT that Adam's "one trespass resuted in condemnation for ALL PEOPLE.

Satisfied? I hope so. It's the truth.

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None of this speaks to a sin nature. Paul has already told us that the reason death reigned is because people sinned.

Sin entered the world through Adam and it was perpetuated when people sinned. A baby can't sin, not knowing the law. So it isn't by virtue of anyone's birth or corrupt nature by birth but 'because every man sinned.' Paul says that, but you won't accept it. 'Sin nature' is your pretext but it isn't found anywhere in scripture, especially not in the passage you quote.

Peter said this about people who do what you are doing in his day:

2 Peter 3:14-16
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Carl Emerson said:

The Godhead was involved.

We have no detail on if He used an egg from Mary or created a unique egg that He fertilised.

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I think we do actually. The genealogy of Jesus is given and thus it had to be Mary's egg. A unique egg would have produced a person with no familial history other than God's. Besides which this isn't the level at which we are to try to pick apart scripture. Jesus was flesh. Whatever God did, he made sure he was the same flesh as everyone else, with all of the same frailties and temptations. That's what Paul writes in Hebrews. And if he was flesh like us, then he also had to have "sin nature" if such a thing existed ( it doesn't).

BNR32FAN said:

No the builder in 1 Corinthians 3 is not being burned up. The “burning up” is figurative, it simply means that God will judge our deeds. The test of fire is simply a metaphor for God’s judgement.

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I didn't say the builder was being burned up. The building is itself subjected to "fire" in his metaphor there. The parts of the building which cannot withstand the fire are burned up. But those parts are the people who have either adhered to the foundation of Christ which they were taught and are like the things which withstand fire - precious stones, pearls, gold - or straw and hay which will burn up under such trials.

Paul plugs in the metaphor's equation at the beginning.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"OK, let's go with "conditions".

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

OK, show me any conditions for "never perishing"."

Just making a statement proves nothing, nor creates any fact. Show me the actual words that create a "condition" for never perishing by "following".

What we actually have is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO (they are ALREADY saved, by being His sheep). So there is NOTHING in v.27 that rises to the level of being a condition for anything in v.28, EXCEPT being given eternal life.

So if you want to argue that there is a condition for never perishing, ok, let's go with that. The single condition for never perishing is to be given the gift of eternal life.

This is so obvious it shouldn't even have to be said.

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So you don't agree that follow is a verb?

FreeGrace2 said:

Not so simple.

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But since he's talking about our resurrection where we will be given new physical bodies which never decay, he's obviously using definition #1 there and not #2. Definitions of any word are provided through their use in sentences in the extant literature, not the other way around.

And definitions can even be expanded as people use the word in different contexts. There's no such thing as a word with a universally singular definition. In fact you've proved that already when you provide the lexicon entry which clearly shows several different definitions for the word corruption.

It is the context which tells us what definition is appropriate. Paul wasn't discussing the 'sin nature' of man, he was talking about the perishable nature of flesh and how in the resurrection, we will have physical, incorruptible bodies.

And what do you know. In the definitions you provided:

ἐν φθορά, in a state of corruption or decomposition (of the body at burial), 1 Corinthians 15:42; by metonymy, that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable, opposed to ἀφθαρσία

The very verse even. Congratulations, you refuted yourself and didn't even realize it.

Al Touthentop said:

I think we do actually. The genealogy of Jesus is given and thus it had to be Mary's egg. A unique egg would have produced a person with no familial history other than God's. Besides which this isn't the level at which we are to try to pick apart scripture. Jesus was flesh. Whatever God did, he made sure he was the same flesh as everyone else, with all of the same frailties and temptations. That's what Paul writes in Hebrews. And if he was flesh like us, then he also had to have "sin nature" if such a thing existed ( it doesn't).

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Yes the lineage of Mary demands it was her egg.

On the unredeemed nature Jesus didn't have one. In that sense He was not tempted like us but maybe He experienced this temptation on the cross...

Carl Emerson said:

Yes the lineage of Mary demands it was her egg.

On the unredeemed nature Jesus didn't have one. In that sense He was not tempted like us but maybe He experienced this temptation on the cross...

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He was tempted exactly like us. That is why his obedience and sacrifice is so important. He came in the flesh with all that is included with it. If we don't acknowledge that he was exactly like us, then we do not acknowledge that he came in the flesh.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

1 John 4:2-3
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Peter was speaking to specific group of Jews, not speaking generally to "all people"."

Where did Paul preach what Peter did?


OK, let's take some time out for a ridiculous joke. But the joke's on you, if that's your game.

In context, the Jews that literally took part in the crucifixion thought Jesus was merely a human being claiming to be God. All in spite of all of His miracles and teaching. They HAD to change their minds about that. I'm surprised I have to explain this.


I'm curious what you think "repent" means. Please explain.

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"Repent," by itself means to change the mind. But in the context of what Jesus and the apostles taught it was to turn away from sin. In other words, to stop sinning. God used that word when he said he was repenting of his creation of man back in Genesis 5 or 6. He wasn't talking about sin there, so the word has to be considered in its context.

Peter wanted the Jews to repent of their sin - specifically the murder of their promised Messiah. But he also preached the same message at other times to different Jews and to Cornelius.

Jesus and Ananias together taught Saul that he must repent (of his sin of persecuting and murdering church members) and to be baptized.

Acts 22:14-16
14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Al Touthentop said:

I didn't say the builder was being burned up. The building is itself subjected to "fire" in his metaphor there. The parts of the building which cannot withstand the fire are burned up. But those parts are the people who have either adhered to the foundation of Christ which they were taught and are like the things which withstand fire - precious stones, pearls, gold - or straw and hay which will burn up under such trials.

Paul plugs in the metaphor's equation at the beginning.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it.

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I see what your saying now. It’s an interesting perspective that I have not contemplated before. The people cannot be the ones being burned up because if their works don’t withstand the test of fire they are still saved. It’s the works that are tested and if they withstand the test (judgement) the builder will be rewarded. Each person who is building on the foundation of Christ is a builder. This is not a reference to wheat and tares because tares will not be saved.

BNR32FAN said:

I see what your saying now. It’s an interesting perspective that I have not contemplated before. The people cannot be the ones being burned up because if their works don’t withstand the test of fire they are still saved. It’s the works that are tested and if they withstand the test (judgement) the builder will be rewarded. Each person who is building on the foundation of Christ is a builder. This is not a reference to wheat and tares because tares will not be saved.

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You've almost got it. The builders are the preachers - Apollos and Paul. It is they who withstand this test of fire. The "work" are those they've added to the building. The work which survives is that which can withstand fire. If one was of bad material like hay or straw. It is the builders who come out of the test as if through fire. The materials burn up.