Ban the Bible

Beanieboy · Dec 26, 2019

Here’s the thing: I’ve heard the story before, and I believe you really have to look at the situation before getting false Christian persecution.

Two employees worked in an office. One was gay. The other posted Leviticus 20:18
Man shall not lie with man as with a woman; they shall both be put to death: their blood is upon them.

The gay person felt like the other was basic putting up a Kill Gay People sign, because the verse calls for death.

He refused to take it down, stating religious freedom and freedom of speech.

Many people moan about being PC, but it is deeper than that.

Regardless of your feeling about homosexuals, implying they dhould be killed at an office is inappropriate, and implies the gay person in the office is getting a death threat.

Any research of Leviticus from theologians will show you these laws, which no one keeps today, were an old covenant with the Israelite tribe of Levite soecifically, in order to differentiate them from the people of Egypt and Caanan.

While abomination is used in the verse he printed out, it is also used for pork, seabirds, and shrimp, so either God finds these creation detestible, or it is a reference to cleanliness.

And the most important: of all the verses he chose to express his faith, it was the misuse and misunderstanding of the verse, and the general message of Christ, to love one another, and to live God. Instead, he goes to the trouble of printing out a verse gay people have heard thousands of times in order to not only show his objection to homosexuality, but that his coworker was worthy of death, then throw God under the bus, implying that God hates gays and demands they be killed.

And then refuses to admit how he dinned against God and his coworker, and thinks he is the victim.

Being fired from his job and feigning persecution of religion on Earth is the least of his worries. What will he say to God at judgement? “I didn’t say that. You did.

i’m so tired of this antithesis of Christianity, wolves in sheep’s clothing, making a mockery of the religion, going out of their way to harass or even post that some people deserve death (the bible says we all do) then whine that they are victims when they are the perpetrator.

1Reformedman · Dec 26, 2019

Archivist said:
Try reading what I have written multiple times and don’t make false accusations. I never said that it is a fact that the 1st Amendment will not be abolished in 20 years. Even if people could have psychic ability I don’t so I couldn’t say that as a statement of fact. I said that it is a fact that I believe that it will not be abolished in 20 years.

Ok see so you're claiming its a fact that is what you believe. Ok well, fact is something isnt it. lets all claim our opinions are fact.

Archivist · Dec 26, 2019

1Reformedman said:
Ok see so you're claiming its a fact that is what you believe. Ok well, fact is something isnt it. lets all claim our opinions are fact.

You aren’t getting this. I never ever said that my opinion is a fact. I said multiple times—this isn’t hard—that it is a fact that I believe that the 1st Amendment will be around in 20 years. Why can’t you figure this out?

stevevw · Dec 26, 2019

Silverback said:
I personally believe that with an 20 years the bible will, by law, be relegated to the home, and the church. I also believe there will be a ban on publishing God's word, spreading the Gospel, and any public display of Christianity. These will be Federal Laws, and they will use the public school system to indoctrinate our children, to report anyone violating these laws.

If you think it can't happen, then you are naive.

That's not going to go down well for organisations like Jehovah Witnesses who go door to door preaching. In fact they are a good example of freedom of religion at the moment. Many people may not agree with their interpretation of the bible but people accept their particular belief and some will stop and listen. They may take their literature and go along with things. That is all part of a democratic society and the freedom to express beliefs.

In reference to the public school system they are already indoctrinating our kids with secular worldviews.

stevevw · Dec 26, 2019

RDKirk said:
The "hard line approach" is for the Holy Spirit, whose job it is to convict the world of sin.

And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

We are the Body of Christ. Our job is not to convict the world of sin. Our job is to continue what Jesus did in the flesh on earth.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Jesus told us:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,

In fact, He said it twice for emphasis:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Who the Father has enabled might be anyone, but it is not everyone.

And it may not be anyone all the time, but that one at the right time.

Those who have been enabled do not need a "hard line approach." They need only the gospel--Christ and Him crucified--which is always a soft line.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

This is why Jesus could also say:

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

If that person is not enabled (that person at that time), there is no point in a "hard line approach." Just move on.

Yet Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone. He condemned sinners and spoke of Gods judgement for sin. Between Jesus and his disciples especially Paul for which many preachers quote I think sin and hell is mentions a lot. How can we not assume that there is not a place in some situations where we should speak about the consequences of rejecting God and sinning.

Matthew 18:6
"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Matthew 5:21-26
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Paul spoke of

John talks about sinners ending up in hell
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Jude spoke of what happens to sinners
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Paul seems to take a hard-line on preaching more than anyone.
2 Thessalonians 2:12 “all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

Romans 2:5, 8 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed…But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

RDKirk · Dec 26, 2019

1Reformedman said:
and satan twisted the context of those verses and Jesus KNEW IT!

When Satan claimed ownership of the kingdoms of men, that wasn't a twist of an OT verse, nor did Jesus dispute Satan's claim.

Moreover:

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

And:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

stevevw · Dec 26, 2019

1Reformedman said:
God desiring that all be saved its not about free will. Taken in context 2 peter 3:9 is talking about the elect coming to repentance. 1 Timothy 2:4 isnt about salvation but instead who we are to pray for. FYI I suggest you learn how to properly read the bible. Primary teachings are never subordinated by secondary teachings. The bible does not teach or imply that all have the op[portunity to be saved. Salvation is an act exclusively offered and effectuated by God himself. Being saved has nothing to do with anything you think you do to obtain it.

All means all within the context that it is being used. Our eternal destiny DOES NOT REST in our hands as you have so erroneously and unbiblically stated. If what you say is true then Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was not sufficient enough to save you but instead was simply bringing about the potential for one to be saved. Based upon your false premise its the human who gives God permission to save him. Nothing could be further from the biblical truth of the matter.

No I thought Gods grace was for all to take it. It seems you are talking about predestination. If that was the case then what is the use of preaching when those who are saved will be saved anyway. It also makes out that there is no free will. That those who are not saved never had a chance in the first place. They were pre-programmed to reject God and end up in hell. Either that or they were never picked to end up in heaven so in that sense they had no chance to begin with.

RDKirk · Dec 26, 2019

stevevw said:
Yet Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone. He condemned sinners and spoke of Gods judgement for sin. Between Jesus and his disciples especially Paul for which many preachers quote I think sin and hell is mentions a lot. How can we not assume that there is not a place in some situations where we should speak about the consequences of rejecting God and sinning.

Matthew 18:6
"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Matthew 5:21-26
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Paul spoke of

John talks about sinners ending up in hell
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Jude spoke of what happens to sinners
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Paul seems to take a hard-line on preaching more than anyone.
2 Thessalonians 2:12 “all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

Romans 2:5, 8 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed…But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jesus spoke in such grave terms to people who claimed to know God.

To be sure, the lost are lost."Hell" means nothing to an unbeliever, or even to anyone who doesn't yet know belief.

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. -- Romans 8

But our "target market" is not the lost, our target market is the "enabled."

Those who are enabled to receive the gospel don't need a "hard line approach."

stevevw · Dec 27, 2019

RDKirk said:
Jesus spoke in such grave terms to people who claimed to know God.

From what I understand it seems Jesus was speaking to those who did not believe or know God. ie
The bible says Jesus came to save sinners and not those who know God. Mark 2:17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

To be sure, the lost are lost."Hell" means nothing to an unbeliever, or even to anyone who doesn't yet know belief.

Yet here we have God condemning non believers and those who don't know belief to hell.
Revelations 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

The faithless is someone who chooses not believe and they are lumped with the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and murderers. They must have at some point reaped what they sowed. That means they choose the path to hell. In fact if they are capable of believing in idols then they understand the importance of belief and worship of God but have chosen the wrong ones.

Romans 1:18-32 sums this up by saying
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, ...

This verses speaks to everyone. All of Gods creation knows him and has no excuse. But some suppress the truth and do not honor him. That means that had to have known the truth to suppress it. By suppressing the truth they have become deluded and now cannot know who God is or understand him. IMO that means everyone knows of God through his creation and have the choice to acknowledge this truth or suppress it.

Plus why would Paul say there is "now no condemnation" for for who are in Christ. That implies those who are not in Christ and were living in the flesh and ignorant of God were condemned. It was by accepting Christ they are no longer condemned.
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

-- Romans 8

But our "target market" is not the lost, our target market is the "enabled."

The point is we don't know who they are so we have to assume that everyone is a target. That means those who may live in sin sometimes need to be warned of Gods judgement just like others in the bible are warned.

Romans 8 is only telling us that our sinful nature cannot do good or please God. It does not say that the flesh prevents us from knowing that we are incapable of meeting Gods standards or are incapable of knowing we are sinners and need to accept God. That means though we some live in the flesh and cannot please God they still can know this and choose to accept or reject Jesus as the remedy to their situation.

The bible is full of examples where God revealed himself to people and gave them chances and some even knew God was real but still choose to deny and reject him.

Those who are enabled to receive the gospel don't need a "hard line approach."

Then why did Jesus and the disciples and many of the early Christians bother to speak of hell at all. They could not mention it to sinners as they were not capable of understanding or doing anything about changing their pre-destined plight. They couldn't mention hell to those enabled to receive salvation as they were already going to be saved and knew the score. Now I'm really confused lol.

The bible verse below seems to imply that some people hear Gods message but refuse to accept and act on it. In other words they know God is real but still reject him because they are stubborn. A stubborn person is someone who knows they need to do something but refuse to do it. Jesus says these people are storing up wrath for themselves. So they will end up being judged by God because they refused to accept Him.
“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed

stevevw · Dec 27, 2019

What does this verse mean that no one is hidden from Gods sight and all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him whom we must give account. That seems like Paul is saying that everyone, saved and unsaved is known by God and he exposes their inner selves as to their deeds and will be judged accordingly. So even using Gods words to the unsaved will still cut deep exposing the truth just as Christ exposed the truth to unbelievers and they were exposed. In that way everyone is at some point exposed to Gods truth but can choose to deny it and harden themselves or accept it.

Hebrews 4:12-6:6
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Also what is Paul saying here "people refused to love the truth". So they must have still known the truth but choose not to embrace and love it. Remembering that the truth he talks about is Christ. It seems it is after they have refused the truth that they no longer understand and will believe the lies of the world.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie (2 Thess 2:11).

It seems they still had a choice up until they refused to love the truth. It was only after they refused the truth that God sent them the powerful delusion.

stevevw · Dec 28, 2019

lismore said:
Hello Steve, thanks for your interesting post.

First I think we need to share the truth with the church which to a certain extent has become ashamed of the truth. Even on this forum often you have got to plead (unsuccessfully) with people that they would accept the clear teaching of scripture. If we don't tell homosexuals the truth then they will perish for their sin and we will be held accountable before God. That's the issue now I think, not whether you share the truth forcefully or softly, the issue is that so few are standing for the truth of God's word.

God Bless

Good points. For some the truth no matter how you tell it can be painful and confronting. This is especially true for something like salvation of the soul that is about letting go of self will and submitting to Gods will. People like to think they have control and don't want to give this up. It is a paradox that we sometimes have to give in to win.

You made me think of an example of the importance of truth telling and the consequences and how modern society is shying away from truth. Even in non religious circles the truth is being suppressed due to PC and protecting certain lifestyles. Abortion is one area where people do not want to acknowledge the truth about human life. The gender issue is another where the go to treatment for gender dysphoria is being directed towards gender fluidity and transitioning therapies despite the science showing that this is not the best treatment.

Any mention of alternative treatments like a wait and see approach is seen as being hateful. So the truth has to be suppressed for the sake of upholding certain ideologies. It is one view against another except one view has already been decided is the best and the other is seen as being hateful for denying people their rights. That's despite the alternative view may be life saving. I believe this comes down to a spiritual battle and that is why people are reacting to anyone who tries to speak the truth.

stevevw · Dec 28, 2019

1Reformedman said:
in our hearts? You do realize the word heart is a metaphor, right?

Yes it is more likely our conscience. That part of us that is beyond the mind that rationalizes things away or the heart that is often more associated with feelings that are not always reliable. It is more likely our spirituality/soul whatever that is that recognizes divine concepts of Gods qualities and laws.

stevevw · Dec 28, 2019

1Reformedman said:
Do you disagree with the idea that a one-world govt is coming before the return of Jesus? Does the Bible teach that faith in Christ will be severely challenged during this time? Do you presume this country will be the way it is now, forever?

I was listening to a video with author and speaker Eric Metaxas on this topic the other day. He talks about Dietrich Bonhoeffer and how in the 1930's before the 2nd WW he stood up to the Nazi's who were trying to install this big brother type government in Germany before they tried to impose this on other countries during the war. He said the first thing that the state does in setting this up is to oppress the church as they see the church as a threat to having ultimate control.

They first do this by opposing the churches moral and social position. Taking opposing positions on issues like marriage, families and child upbringing. Forcing their view onto the church, bullying and denying the church any say in the matter. Bonhoeffer seen this as wrong as the church was separate from the state and should have the right to its views. It is the moral conscience for society and to keep the state in check. When the state does something wrong the church is there to point this out. Denying their rights is seen as detrimental to a healthy society.

Eric Metaxas sees a similar thing happening today especially in western nations where governments are putting out policies that are in opposition to the church and creating a discourse that is anti church/religion. This is the first step towards a totalitarian regime where the church is suppressed as they are the biggest threat to the state. It may not be happening as dramatically as in Germany in the 30's and 40's but it is slowly and surely happening today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m9Jn6v5i6Y

lismore · Dec 28, 2019

stevevw said:
Good points. For some the truth no matter how you tell it can be painful and confronting.

Hello Steve. I agree completely with your post. I was reminded of the scripture:

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)

To bring repentance the word of God will need to cut people to the heart, to offend, to shake them out of the complacency that would lead them to a lost eternity.

The bible also says that all who seek to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will experience persecution. This I think is the reason all believers are persecuted: we speak the truth. God Bless You

stevevw · Dec 28, 2019

lismore said:
Hello Steve. I agree completely with your post. I was reminded of the scripture:

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)

To bring repentance the word of God will need to cut people to the heart, to offend, to shake them out of the complacency that would lead them to a lost eternity.

The bible also says that all who seek to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will experience persecution. This I think is the reason all believers are persecuted: we speak the truth. God Bless You

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