Does creation get born again?

Shrewd Manager said:

True, that's how Jesus deals with the Pharisees eg 'How will you escape the judgment to come?' It amazes me that the brethren can't see that to burden others with the fear of damnation is to put themselves in danger of it, on the principle of condign justice - as ye sow, so shall ye reap. God is perfect, they test Him at their peril.

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Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Shrewd Manager said:

Yes, so do you think the individual being born again is a 'microcosm', if you will, of the promised regeneration of the entire world? And if so, is the lake of fire in Rev 20-22 essentially the baptismal fire upscaled?

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The Lake of Fire in Revelation is the place of eternal punishment. To be "baptized with fire" means to endure the wrath of God. This is why Jesus posed the question to (I think it was James and John) can you be baptized with the baptism that I'm baptized with?

The "front end" answer to that question is "no"; because they would never survive an eternity under God's wrath. The "back end" answer to that question is "yes" because "in Christ" they have been "baptized with (that) baptism".

It takes two "elements" of ones existence to survive "baptism by fire" (i.e. the wrath of God)
1. You have to be without sin. Because what one receives of the wrath of God is based on the "wages of sin" earned from the sin committed.
2. You have to be Divine. Only one who is eternal can "outlive" an everlasting wrath. And He can only outlive it because He is all powerful. He endures it knowing that He will overcome it because He possesses omniscience. He overcomes it also because He Himself is omnipresent. All these attributes are what makes God immortal.

This is why substitutionary atonement is so important.

This is also why the current creation is destroyed. On account of the temporal nature of what it is; it can not be "eternal glory". A portion of the atonement freed the creation from the curse brought upon it by Adam's transgression.

The flip side of this though is that the creation itself on account of its temporal nature could not inherit eternity because it was created into a "corrupted" "space".

I believe the "knowledge of good and evil" that God possessed consisted of the understanding that when ever and what ever He "did" something; the "equal and opposite reaction" of HIs action would also come into play. And since the nature of God is reflected in His action; the theoretical opposite of God comes into existence as a "reaction" to His action. It's not a reaction to Him the entity; but a reaction to His action. This is why evil is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal or from everlasting to everlasting.

Now the other aspect of this is that there are entities God created who are outside of the possibility of redemption. There are non carbon based entities that Scripture calls "angels". There are "beasts" and other things that are depicted in Revelation that don't appear to be carbon based either. Obviously God is not a carbon based entity; although the second person of the Trinity became a carbon based entity.

The point of that necessity had to do with atonement.

Which brings up the question as to whether or not angels are actually "life" (or at least in the same sense as carbon based life is "life"; i.e. it contains the "breath of life". There's no evidence from Scripture that these non carbon based entities called "angels" contain the breath of life.

Yet they obviously possess sentience because they are accountable for their sin. There are those who've transgressed and there are those who continue to obey. And they are apparently different than carbon based life because in that sense they are not "killable". Now is this why the Lake of Fire is eternal because of the aspect of both fallen angels and fallen men that is not "killable"?

That would make sense.

Shrewd Manager said:

An interesting view. Are you suggesting the wolf's nature is not inherently vulpine - that he and the lamb will lie down together without the need for a full spiritual regeneration?

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Now plants and animals need the curse removed from them to be recreated; but they don't need personal atonement for their "sin" (and yes, entities other than man are capable of being guilty of sin) because they are not created in God's image. "Lower form" carbon based life also does not bear the capacity to examine its behavior in the context of accountability before God; simply because it isn't created in God's image. It does of nature what is directed by its state of existence (being corrupted or being in state prior to corruption).

So to answer your question about the wolf being "inherently vulpine"; the uncorrupted nature of the wolf was not that of one that ate other animals. Prior to the fall; everything ate plants as its source of fuel. This was because there was no "death".

Now one could argue that consuming a plant constitutes it's "death"; yet if "the life is in the blood" and and organism has not "blood" even though it is still considered "life" because it possesses the breath of life; it is just transferring that breath to another organism and in that sense it doesn't die.

That animal's body processes that fuel, combining it with the animals own waste products and excretes that waste both in feces, urine and exhaled CO2; reinserting that converted energy back into the system as a type of fuel that the plant can now use to grow.

That aspect of "energy transfer" in that respect is a "closed system" because the breakdown and recycling of the "plant" / "waste" undoubtedly has a "consistent mathematical factor" to it (for lack of a better term). The "unaccounted for factor" though is solely dependent on the amount of "be fruitful and multiply" that has occurred within an ecosystem.

A healthy ecosystem has vibrant and abundant life. And that life; by nature of what it is created as (also Who it's created by) just produces more life simply because it was designed to do that. It is designed to do that because the Creator who made it is inherent of His essence "Creative".

Shrewd Manager said:

We'll have to disagree on this point, as I believe in a flat motionless earth under a solid firmament. The universe is all contained in maybe 100,000 cubic miles between the separated waters. Just as the ancients saw it and interpreted the OT.

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That is also arguable based on interpretation of what people think Hebrew words mean. Not all the ancients believed the earth was flat either.

Shrewd Manager said:

Just a propaganda machine I suggest!

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Something did crash in Roswell that we are not being told the truth about. That is fact. Now what that object was and why we are still not told the truth of what it was is obviously still current in public discourse. I don't find it unreasonable or doubtful to state that event really happened though.

To say Roswell was a "non event" is like saying World War II didn't happen. Now it is also up for much debate of what actually happened in WWII? But that's also the subject of another thread.

Saint Steven said:

I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Do you believe that those in heaven will abide there forever?
And what of those in hell? Will they abide there forever?
It seems that everyone has eternal life.

You could argue that those in hell have eternal death.
But both those in heaven and those in hell will abide there forever. Right?
What's the difference? Forever is forever.

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The earth is remade to be in inhabited---we won't stay in heaven after the 1000 years---the earth will be our home after it is remade. As for hell---everyone in hell and hell itself is destroyed---to ashes then the earth is remade---there will be no more hell.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Shrewd Manager said:

Uh oh, looks like the good times on this thread are over, we're down to the business end, where everyone who ever rejected the threat of damnation gets roasted. But seriously, you never answered the damnationists' quandary as per:

• Rev 20:9 nations' armies consumed by fire
• Rev 20:15 stragglers thrown into lake of fire
• Rev 21:24-26 nations bring glory to throne
• Rev 22:2 leaves of the tree of life for healing the nations.

Res ipsa loquitur, nest-ce pas ma soeur? (Hint: the nations are not the priesthood who reign with Christ.)

Also, as per the last few posts, do you deny that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and that creation will be reborn after groaning with birth pangs, it's features standing out like clay under seal?

Do the concepts anakainosis, apocatastasis and paliggenesis of all things as taught by Jesus, the apostles and the prophets not have a place in your theology?

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Universalism was not taught by Christ or the disciples. It is not in the bible, it is a total fabrication and misapplied, misread scriptures. I won't be on this thread for long, just got off one on the same subject and there is nothing new that I have not heard many times. It's a fairy tale were God forces all the wicked in hell to accept living in His presence or be tortured until they do. You can sugar coat it all you want, that is what is supposed to happen. God does not force the will, if that were what He wanted, He would have done it with Lucifer and His angels to begin with.

Shrewd Manager said:

1. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal [paliggenesia] of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. (Matt 19:28-29)

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration [paliggenesia] and renewal [anakinoseos] of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)​

Strong’s:
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).

342 anakaínōsis (from 303 /aná, "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new"; see 2537 /kainós) – properly, a new development; a renewal, achieved by God's power.

ἀνακαίνωσις, (εως, ἡ, a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better (cf. ἀνακαινόω): τοῦ νως, object. genitive, Romans 12:2; πνεύματος ἁγίου, effected by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5. (Etym. Magn., Suidas; (Hermas, vis. 3, 8, 9 [ET]; other ecclesiastical writings); the simple καίνωσις is found only in Josephus, Antiquities 18, 6, 10.) (Cf. Trench, § xviii.)

2537 kainós – properly, new in quality (innovation), fresh in development or opportunity – because "not found exactly like this before."​

2. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born [gennethenai] again.’ John 3:7​

Strong’s:

1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."

d. peculiarly, in the Gospel and First Epistle of John, of God conferring upon men the nature and disposition of his sons, imparting to them spiritual life, i.e. by his own holy power prompting and persuading souls to put faith in Christ and live a new life consecrated to himself;​

3. Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration [apokatasaseos] of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)​

Strongs:
Cognate: 605 apokatástasis (from 600 /apokathístēmi, "restore") – restitution, referring to the "restoration of the physical earth in the Messianic kingdom (Millennium)" (G. Archer).

ἀποκατάστασις, ἀποκαταστάσεως, ἡ (ἀποκαθίστημι, which see), restoration: τῶν πάντων, the restoration not only of the true theocracy but also of that more perfect state of (even physical) things which existed before the fall, Acts 3:21; cf. Meyer at the passage (Often in Polybius, Diodorus, Plutarch, others.)​

Do these scriptures teach that a universal spiritual baptism will occur, and are the terms used essentially synonyms?

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Simple answer? Yes the universe is created anew (born again may be a poor choice).

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remai

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 Peter 3:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Hope these help.

mmksparbud said:

Universalism was not taught by Christ or the disciples. It is not in the bible, it is a total fabrication and misapplied, misread scriptures.

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Universalism taught by David:
The Lord is good to all;
he has compassion on all he has made. Psalm 145:9

so that all people may know of your mighty acts
and the glorious splendor of your kingdom.
Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures through all generations. Psalm 145:12-13

You open your hand
and satisfy the desires of every living thing. Psalm 145:16

Universalism taught by Isaiah:

Isaiah 25:6-8

Universalism taught by Paul:

Colossians 1:20, 1 Timothy 4:10, Romans 5:19

Universalism taught by John the Baptist:

Luke 3:6

Universalism implied by an angel to Maria & Joseph:

Luke 2:10

Universalism alluded to by Jesus:

John 3:17, John 8:12, John 6:51

Jord Simcha said:

Universalism taught by David:
The Lord is good to all;
he has compassion on all he has made. Psalm 145:9

so that all people may know of your mighty acts
and the glorious splendor of your kingdom.
Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures through all generations. Psalm 145:12-13

You open your hand
and satisfy the desires of every living thing. Psalm 145:16

Universalism taught by Isaiah:

Isaiah 25:6-8

Universalism taught by Paul:

Colossians 1:20, 1 Timothy 4:10, Romans 5:19

Universalism taught by John the Baptist:

Luke 3:6

Universalism implied by an angel to Maria & Joseph:

Luke 2:10

Universalism alluded to by Jesus:

John 3:17, John 8:12, John 6:51

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Not a single one of those verses teaches universalism. There is no verse in the bible that says God gives eternal life to the lost, no verse that says anyone gets out of the lake of fire to live forever in the presence of God. The wicked go to the 2n d death---it is not called the 2nd life or the 2nd chance---death, as in cease to exist.

mmksparbud said:

As for hell---everyone in hell and hell itself is destroyed---to ashes then the earth is remade---there will be no more hell.

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I keep forgetting that you believe in Annihilationism. - lol

Shrewd Manager said:

Well, the wrath of God is an aspect of His grace, for He is love. He is unified, not divided against Himself, nor are His attributes in tension/ opposition. So His wrath is His love in action against sin. The sinner who tries to vainly hold to his pride or whatever will experience the fire as wrath ie as torment/ punishment, but once he submits to Christ he recognises the fire as God's grace and love, destroying sin and saving him from his sin. The fire becomes refreshing water of life. Hence is why Ezekiel's vision is of a river of fresh water, whereas Daniel and John see it as a stream/ lake of fire.

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The wrath of God is only an aspect of His grace as it applies to those who are atoned for. Only the elect have been bought by the blood of Christ. Jesus enduring wrath for them is the demonstration of God's love in action against sin.

I see you are one of these "universal atonement" proponents but that isn't Scriptural. No where does the Scripture ever say that those cast into the Lake of Fire ever get out. Satan and fallen angels are never redeemed. There is no redemption plan for them.

Even in the vision you state in Ezekiel; he states the miry places and the marshes won't be healed. They are given over to salt (water that's too salty kills things).

So how is God's wrath a demonstration of His love to those who are redeemed? By the very simple fact that we know we should be there. God doesn't owe any of us anything!

Shrewd Manager said:

The Biblical earth is flat, motionless and enclosed. You might not like it, but it is scripturally inescapable.

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And which Scripture verses are those?

Isaiah 40:22 the "circle of the earth" is also translated "circuit of heaven" and "vault". Flat earthers believe what's above the earth is a dome. A dome is half a sphere. So you can't even argue by that verse that the word "chug" isn't describing a "circle" that's spherical.

Shrewd Manager said:

Not sure if the weight of evidence for Roswell can be compared to that of WWII.

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Something crashed there. The townspeople said it happened. The newspapers said it happened, the government said it happened. What "it" was we don't know; but "it" happened. How do I know "it" happened; because what would be the reason to make up that "something crashed"? Now what actually crashed? That's what's up for interpretation.

Shrewd Manager said:

Still, if satan can hoodwink the world over the so-called Shoah, do you think a little wizardry in New Mexico is beyond him? Christians really ought to have eyes to see through the devil's tawdry schemes.

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In reality, I don't think anyone's hoodwinked over Shoah. I think there's more people around the world who realize it didn't happen then people who believe it did; regardless of what the "history" books say. The only people who are "hoodwinked" are the Zionists and that's because they believe Israel has something to do with the end of time. And in a certain sense; maybe that's true, but not in the "positive prophetic sense" that most people interpret it to be. And in that regard, I would agree that Zionism is totally Satanic. There's a whole string of things you could connect to that one; from wars, to the economy, to the banking system, to who gets elected, to drugs, to human trafficking, etc. etc. etc. Zionism the political movement started in what - 1840's (something like that)?

Some of the rest of this stuff though (the ritual sacrifice stuff) goes back into antiquity. I think there's actually a reference in Luke about it; when Pilate sent soldiers into the temple. "mixed their own blood with their sacrifice". All that end of it is absolutely Satanic.

Shrewd Manager said:

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things,...

Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Rev 21:5
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."

The ultimate restoration of all things is not up for debate. It was accepted by Jesus and the apostles as a given. And Rev reveals it will come to pass. It's rock solid scripture. God's salvation is the omega.



Not so, God changes hearts and minds. Those who were once far He brings near. His enemies repent and become His footstools once the true gospel is revealed. He has done it!


He pours out His spirit on the sinner, and who can stand against it? Can the clay resist the potter, can the netted fish resist the winch? The hound of heaven will retrieve every last bone.

Is that what He would have done with Lucifer to begin with? Sure about that?

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The earth will be remade after the lake of fire has consumed everything in it. God does not force anyone to become His robots. He could have done that to begin with. He changes hearts and minds only to those who chose it.

Shrewd Manager said:

Revelation teaches that when the obstacles to the gospel are removed - the sorceries of Babylon, the deceiver and his false trinity - most unbelievers will hear the word of the Lord and choose life. But some are so entrenched in their unbelief or love of the lie that they need extra help, so they're cast into the lake of fire, given a full dose of God's burning love. And they emerge from that immersion renewed in grace and truth.

So then, as it is written, the kings of the earth will bring their honour and glory to the throne, in supplication before the Almighty God, because at last they get it, they know who He is.

So you, too, must show love to foreigners, for you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt. (De 10:19)

You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. (Ez 47:22)

"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mk 12:31)

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These are some very interesting thoughts. Could you detail this out further? PM me if this is not the time or place. Thanks.

Shrewd Manager said:

You mean the scriptural basis for that summary of the Revelation narrative?

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Yes.
But more importantly, the practical application/order of events. Especially as it relates to unbelievers. Your interpretation of it in plain English.

There seems to be several layers/levels to the judgment. Judgment of the nations and a judgment of individual works. So, do you see it as whole nations, or mostly/only the leadership? How does that segue into individual judgment? Seems to be some doubling up of judgment. As a nation and as an individual.

The sheep and goats in Matt.25 seem to indicate a special provision for those who have provided for the needs of the Body of Christ. Where might that fit?

Lots of questions and loose ends here. Curious as to what you make of all this. How do you see all this fitting together? That may be too much for now. Reply as you see fit. Thanks.