Theology of Visuals

packermann · Nov 30, 2019

Albion said:
Not at all. And, my friend, I have taught religion in Catholic schools. How about you?

No, I did not teach in Catholic schools. But to be honest with you, I shudder to think that you, a Protestant, was allowed to teach religion in Catholic schools (more than one). I am a traditional Catholic, the parishes I go to would not allow a non-Catholic to teach their children, anymore than I would expect a Protestant school should allow a Catholic to teach there.

That's a play on words and nothing more. Of course, for anyone to be saved, it is thanks to grace.

This is not what you seem to be aware what Catholics believe. You wrote that Catholicism focuses on "more about allowing us to be saved by our own works". That is not what we believe. It is not our own works. It is Christ working through us. It is all God because of Christ's death on the Cross. Apart from Christ we can do nothing! God is at work in us, both to will and to do according to His pleasure! How could you teach Catholic children if you do not understand this distinction? Is that how you taught the children in Catholic schools? That it is all just word-play?

However, Roman Catholic theology holds that the grace permits the individual to have his strivings, his good deeds, etc. count toward his chances of salvation (along with his Faith).

And you taught Catholic children? Let me quote again from the Council of Trent:

If anyone says that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is given only that man may live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will (without grace) he could do both, let him be anathema.

The Church has anathematized any person who says that God's grace only permits us to earn our salvation by our own works. You would have been condemned as a heretic then. How could the Church itself teach what it condemns as heresy?

So grace is not denied, but neither is the Catholic belief that the person must earn his way to salvation or be lost. Protestants, of course, believe that grace enables Faith and that Faith in CHRIST's meritorious work on the Cross is what saves.

Ask me if you still have any questions about this.

I have one question. Suppose you know someone who is living a really sinful lifestyle. Think of the worst. But he turns to Christ and has faith in Christ's meritorious work on the Cross. But you noticed that after a few months his lifestyle is as sinful as ever. Years pass and still no change. When you see him, would you assure him that he is still saved? Or would you warn him that he may not have true faith in Christ?

danielmears · Dec 1, 2019

packermann said:
God has made us wholistic. We do not just think. We touch. We feel. We see. We are not moved just by abstract concepts. We are moved by our other senses.

I have always been pro-life. It just made sense to me that life begins at conception. There is no definte time other than conception that we can say that life began. But when I saw actual pictures of aborted fetuses I was deeply moved. I saw the dead babies and I realized I had to become involved in any way I can.

I felt this way when I saw pictures of the dead bodies at the Nazi concentration camps. Only then did it hit me of the atrocities of the evil done.

I heard for a long time that God loved me so much that He died for me. I thoroughly studied propitiation, atonement, substitution, justification, etc. It was good to understand these concepts. But that was all they were - abstract concepts. After a while, they did not move me as they did when I first heard them.

Then I became Catholic. When I entered the Church, I saw the image of Christ writhing in pain, nailed to the cross. The more and more I saw it, the more it hit home to me - wow! Lord you really died for me!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Art, such as music or imagery, can move us in a way that abstract teaching cannot. Paul wrote that he was determined to know nothing among them but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. We Catholics are often accused of focusing on things other than the Cross. But that has not been my experience. My crucified Lord means more to me as a Catholic than ever before. Every time I enter a Catholic Church, I do not just hear a sermon on the Cross. I see it.

I think it is awesome that the visual deeply moves you, making these powerful images more real to you, so you can feel the power in Christ more fully. Love is what it is all about!

Albion · Dec 1, 2019

packermann said:
No, I did not teach in Catholic schools. But to be honest with you, I shudder to think that you, a Protestant, was allowed to teach religion in Catholic schools (more than one). I am a traditional Catholic, the parishes I go to would not allow a non-Catholic to teach their children, anymore than I would expect a Protestant school should allow a Catholic to teach there.

Your problems are not my concern. Your self-promotion, however.....

This is not what you seem to be aware what Catholics believe. You wrote that Catholicism focuses on "more about allowing us to be saved by our own works". That is not what we believe.

I think I was clear enough that Catholic Christianity believes in Faith + Works, whereas Protestant Christianity believes in Falth Alone.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 1, 2019

packermann said:
God has made us wholistic. We do not just think. We touch. We feel. We see. We are not moved just by abstract concepts. We are moved by our other senses.

I think Jesus said not to go by what can be seen, which is temporal, but by the unseen, what is eternal.

Not David · Dec 1, 2019

Albion said:
Your problems are not my concern. Your self-promotion, however.....

I think I was clear enough that Catholic Christianity believes in Faith + Works, whereas Protestant Christianity believes in Falth Alone.

Why aren't you friendly to Catholics like the other Anglicans?

Albion · Dec 1, 2019

David Neos said:
Why aren't you friendly to Catholics like the other Anglicans?

Actually I am...and I think of it every time I say something supportive of the RCC, knowing that the people who call me anti-Catholic and worse won't be replying to my post although they are right there to complain when I am explaining how I disagree with the RCC on something or other.

This could be due to several different things, but I think that it mostly happens because the areas of faith and practice between Anglicans and Roman Catholics where the two agree do not come up for debate around here nearly as often as do those matters where they disagree--For example, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Papacy, prayers to the departed, the Marian doctrines, and "Holy Tradition."

danielmears · Dec 1, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I think Jesus said not to go by what can be seen, which is temporal, but by the unseen, what is eternal.

It is true we must look beyond the seen for that is where we do our spiritual work and love, faith and spirit are but there is nothing wrong with being moved by the seen. It is a wondrous world!

RaymondG · Dec 2, 2019

packermann said:
God has made us wholistic. We do not just think. We touch. We feel. We see. We are not moved just by abstract concepts. We are moved by our other senses.

I have always been pro-life. It just made sense to me that life begins at conception. There is no definte time other than conception that we can say that life began. But when I saw actual pictures of aborted fetuses I was deeply moved. I saw the dead babies and I realized I had to become involved in any way I can.

I felt this way when I saw pictures of the dead bodies at the Nazi concentration camps. Only then did it hit me of the atrocities of the evil done.

I heard for a long time that God loved me so much that He died for me. I thoroughly studied propitiation, atonement, substitution, justification, etc. It was good to understand these concepts. But that was all they were - abstract concepts. After a while, they did not move me as they did when I first heard them.

Then I became Catholic. When I entered the Church, I saw the image of Christ writhing in pain, nailed to the cross. The more and more I saw it, the more it hit home to me - wow! Lord you really died for me!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Art, such as music or imagery, can move us in a way that abstract teaching cannot. Paul wrote that he was determined to know nothing among them but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. We Catholics are often accused of focusing on things other than the Cross. But that has not been my experience. My crucified Lord means more to me as a Catholic than ever before. Every time I enter a Catholic Church, I do not just hear a sermon on the Cross. I see it.

You have seen things and believe......yet blessed are they who, without seeing, believe.

We are warned to not worship images.......which can be physical or mental..... so the reliance on visuals could become problematic. I also find, in a lot of cases that emotionalism can be an enemy of truth and reason....

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 2, 2019

RaymondG said:
You have seen things and believe......yet blessed are they who, without seeing, believe.

We are warning to not worship images.......with can be physical or mental..... so the reliance on visuals could become problematic. I also find, in a lot of cases that emotionalism can be an enemy of truth and reason....

Yes , good, and reason (man's reason apart from God) can be mankind's worse enemy.

packermann · Dec 2, 2019

RaymondG said:
You have seen things and believe......yet blessed are they who, without seeing, believe.

You are taking John 20:29 out of context. Thomas believe because he saw the risen Christ. Jesus said it is better to just believe without have absolute evidence that He rose from the dead.

We are warned to not worship images.......with can be physical or mental..... so the reliance on visuals could become problematic. I also find, in a lot of cases that emotionalism can be an enemy of truth and reason....

I am not talking about worshipping images. I am talking about using images to worship the one, true God.

RaymondG · Dec 2, 2019

packermann said:
You are taking John 20:29 out of context. Thomas believe because he saw the risen Christ. Jesus said it is better to just believe without have absolute evidence that He rose from the dead.

I did not reference any passage of scripture for you to judge context. You mention that the sight of different objects and situations, move you to act, believe and form moral opinions.

I think it best, sometimes to act and believe without having to see an image first. It is better to believe that God can heal......without having to fall deathly ill and being healed yourself.....Although I can imagine that this experience would be wonderful as well..........i will remain content with health..no experience needed.

packermann said:
I am not talking about worshipping images. I am talking about using images to worship the one, true God.

I know you are not talking about worshiping images.......I was responding to the overall message presented in your words. The children of Israel found it difficult to worship a god they could not see.....they believed that if they had an image of gold, through which they could use for worship, their lives would be easier. The Father did not like this idea.....

packermann · Dec 2, 2019

RaymondG said:
I did not reference any passage of scripture for you to judge context.

You wrote "blessed are they who, without seeing, believe." This is not how a guy today talks. I instantly noticed the Biblical reference. Google this and you come up with this scripture verse.

You mention that the sight of different objects and situations, move you to act, believe and form moral opinions.

No, I merely wrote the sight of Jesus on the cross, whether in a movie or in a crucifix, moves me to appreciate what my precious Lord went through for me.

I think it best, sometimes to act and believe which having to see an image first. It is better to believe that God can heal......without having to fall deathly ill and being healed yourself.....Although I can imagine that this experience would be wonderful as well..........i will remain context with health..no experience needed.

I agree. But that was not what I was talking about. Seeing an image of Christ in a movie and on a crucifix does increase my faith in Him. It increases my love for Him.

I know you are not talking about worshiping images.......I was responding to the overall message presented in your words.

The message of anything should be interpreted based on the intention of the author. The Bible should not be interpreted by what we think in the 21st century it means to us now but what it meant by the authors in the first century. My words only mean what I intended them to mean. My words do not mean anything separate from my intention.

The children of Israel found it difficult to worship a god they could not see.....they believed that if they had an image of gold, through which they could use for worship, their lives would be easier. The Father did not like this idea.....

Do you think that when people saw James Caviesel in the movie The Passion of Christ that people confused the actor Caviesal with the actual Jesus Christ? When my wife and
I saw this movie, I do not recall people getting out of their seats and starting to worship the character Caviesel played on the screen. They were smart enough to understand the difference between Caviesel and the real Jesus. In the same way, I never met any Catholic who did not know that the Jesus on the crucifix is not the real Jesus.

It was different back then when they had worshiped the golden calf. They actually thought that the golden calf was God who just delivered them from Egypt. They thought that because that is what their neighboring pagans believed.

The people made a God out of their image because they wanted to control Him. He is then no longer their Creator, they are His creators! God then becomes safe. He exists to do their bidding. Such a God would never send anyone to hell. The images of God today are not golden calves. They are images in our minds that God is some cosmic Santa Claus to grant our wishes, or is this easy-going god who will in the end accept everyone into heaven, or this super-generous guy who will make us rich. This is what offends God. We must let God be God. We must not box God in to be the way we want Him to be. We must accept God's revelation of Himself, even it scares us. We must worship Him in truth, not the way we want Him to be but as He really is. If we do not love Him as He really is then we do not really love Him - we only love an image we made of Him in our minds.

I was once infatuated with a girl in college. My image of her was that she could do know wrong. I did not really love her. I loved the image I made of her. Love is not blind. Infatuation is blind. We finally realized our love was not real and we broke up. Everyone is looking for that someone who will love them for what they really are. And that is what God wants from us, too. God wants us to love Him as He really is, not as an image we want him to be. The real God is so much better than our image of Him.

The Liturgist · Dec 6, 2019

Albion said:
Did you consider or try any other churches? I don't see anything in your report that couldn't as easily be found in a number of other denominations.

This is true, but if @packermann has found a church where he is happy, that is also very good.

Albion · Dec 6, 2019

The Liturgist said:
This is true, but if @packermann has found a church where he is happy, that is also very good.

The question was simply a question, not a criticism.

The Liturgist · Dec 6, 2019

Tigger45 said:
I think ‘The Stations of the Cross’, meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary and following the liturgical calendar are great practical ways to recall the earthly life and passion of our Lord.

A lot of people really benefit from them. I personally prefer iconography that simply depicts the last Supper, the victorious passion of our Lord on the Cross, His entombment, His resurrection, St. Thomas touching his wounds, and His ascension, as well as other major events in the life of Jesus, such as the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Epiphany, the Transfiguration, the feeding of the flock, the sixth century icon of Christ Pantocrator from St. Catharine’s Monastery at the (once burning) bush in Sinai; and also icons of Jesus with Mary, which remind us that the incarnation and full humanity assumed by our Lord means that God was born of a woman.

The Liturgist · Dec 6, 2019

Albion said:
The question was simply a question, not a criticism.

I understand, and I apologize if I seemed at all persnickity with my reply to you; that was not my intent. I really enjoy your posts on ChristianForums

LoveofTruth · Dec 6, 2019

packermann said:
God has made us wholistic. We do not just think. We touch. We feel. We see. We are not moved just by abstract concepts. We are moved by our other senses.

I have always been pro-life. It just made sense to me that life begins at conception. There is no definte time other than conception that we can say that life began. But when I saw actual pictures of aborted fetuses I was deeply moved. I saw the dead babies and I realized I had to become involved in any way I can.

I felt this way when I saw pictures of the dead bodies at the Nazi concentration camps. Only then did it hit me of the atrocities of the evil done.

I heard for a long time that God loved me so much that He died for me. I thoroughly studied propitiation, atonement, substitution, justification, etc. It was good to understand these concepts. But that was all they were - abstract concepts. After a while, they did not move me as they did when I first heard them.

Then I became Catholic. When I entered the Church, I saw the image of Christ writhing in pain, nailed to the cross. The more and more I saw it, the more it hit home to me - wow! Lord you really died for me!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Art, such as music or imagery, can move us in a way that abstract teaching cannot. Paul wrote that he was determined to know nothing among them but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. We Catholics are often accused of focusing on things other than the Cross. But that has not been my experience. My crucified Lord means more to me as a Catholic than ever before. Every time I enter a Catholic Church, I do not just hear a sermon on the Cross. I see it.

While I do understand seeing an image of the cross can bring an immediate graphic image of Christ death, we see a few other scriptures to consider as well

2 Corinthians 4:18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.”

also I find it interesting that none actually seems to know what a Jesus looked like or what the scene at the cross was exactly we only have words to read about the event with some descriptions. The rest is left to our imagination or unless God gives a revelation or inner vision etc.

concretecamper · Dec 6, 2019

David Neos said:
Why aren't you friendly to Catholics like the other Anglicans?

Whether a poster is being friendly or not isnt the point here. When a poster writes untrue statements about the Catholic Church, it causes the unfriendliness you may be referring to. We can all discuss differences, but when some resort to untruths, it all goes downhill.

concretecamper · Dec 6, 2019

The Liturgist said:
This is true, but if @packermann has found a church where he is happy, that is also very good.

I've found ex-Catholics will try to sway others away from The Church (usually covertly, sometime overtly). They are usually more fannatical than ex protestants.

packermann · Dec 7, 2019

Albion said:
Did you consider or try any other churches? I don't see anything in your report that couldn't as easily be found in a number of other denominations.

I know of no Protestant denomination that has a crucifix, icons, or statues, except for the Anglican/Episcopalien church (which I would never join). That is my whole premise of this thread. We are not just moved by words but pictures, especially of the sufferings of Christ. It is one thing to hear that Christ died for us, it is another thing to see it. Can you name the other Protestant denominations that have a visual of Christ's sufferings?

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