Should Messianic Jews be baptized ? If so , when ?

Hoshiyya said:

The questions I asked were very simple.

If one believes - is raised to believe - one's entire life, when does one take baptism?

You say:

" One can have had faith for years but there is still sin in their lives...our sin separates us from Ha'Shem...sin cannot remain in His presence (the reason why Adam and Eve were kept from the Tree of Life until the promised Redeemer of Genesis 3:15 would arrive to cleanse them of their sin)...sin must be dealt with/remissed/removed to enter the Kingdom"

This (again an unclear answer) implies that one needs to DO THE WORK of quitting sins (before doing the work of baptism) - but we are not saved by works, right?

Now, God forbid you're just theorizing - surely, you have experiential knowledge of these principles you are laying out for us - thus I must ask:
Have you been baptized? Are you seriously claiming you lived for (a year? how long?) without sin, before taking baptism, and that you're now free from sin and keep Torah perfectly?

This leads into the next question which can be stated in three ways:

Why do the WORK of baptism?
Am I saved by this work?
Am I not saved, unless I do this work?

Please answer in a serious and simple way without flowery sermonizing and anecdotes.

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A sign is not work, nor is it the means of salvation. Baptism is a sign of commitment.

Hoshiyya said:

Why do the WORK of baptism?
Am I saved by this work?
Am I not saved, unless I do this work?

Please answer in a serious and simple way without flowery sermonizing and anecdotes.

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See the work by Watchman Nee online somewhere (it is thorough and good and explains all this and much more all from Scripture all in line with all Scripture). His life and his words and his teachings all bear witness to the truth, giving true testimony of Jesus always.

Next: WHY did JESUS get immersed ? (why "do the WORK"?) ....

Also: WHY were some religious teachers REFUSED immersion ? (in the NT)

Note that finding out this second answer also reveals what seems to be missing from most immersions in Jesus' Name in the last century in the USA (and probabably a lot longer all over the world too, but I don't know that for sure not having seen or been there or heard except for a few martyrs repenting publicly then being immersed in Jesus' Name right before being killed)

Tzav said:

Yet we go to the miqvah for name changes, marriage, major changes in life, new biblical understandings, etc., none of which are sinful . . . .

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I hope others will take note of the qof in miqvah.

Hoshiyya said:

Should we be baptized when (we consider that) we've "come to faith"?
But does that not assume then that we were not raised to keep Torah?

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?? (I realize this is an old thread and the op not seen for a while)
But was it not obvious that Yahushua the Messiah was raised perfectly Torah Honoring, Keeping Torah, Trained and Taught very well ?
i.e. raised as written, in the way a child should go, "to keep Torah"?
AND Yahushua Hamashiach obviously was immersed(baptized).

For a peek into the Jewish perspective, Rabbi Maurice Lamm tells us, “Ritual immersion is the total submersion of the body in a pool of water. This pool and its water are precisely prescribed by Jewish law. Immersion, tevillah, is the common core component of every [traditional] Jewish conversion process, for male and female, adult and child, ignoramus and scholar. It is sine qua non, and a conversion ceremony without immersion is unacceptable to the traditional religious community and simply not Jewish in character.

This requirement of immersion admits of no compromise, no matter where in the world one finds oneself. (While Conservative rabbis similarly require mikveh [sometimes pronounced mikvah] for conversion, Reform rabbis generally do not, although a tendency to more traditional symbols and a sense that a uniform conversion process is desirable are encouraging greater use of the immersion component even among the Reform.)”

Baptism actually stems from the ancient practice of this tevillah service, during which either persons or things are immersed in a mikvah (a bath), for various purposes and intents. It is not so much to be cleaned physically, because in most cases one must be clean before participating. It is rooted very deeply in His people Israel from many centuries before either John the Baptist or Jesus ever appeared on the eschatological scene. The general principle comes to us from Leviticus 22:6 where the Torah implies that that which is unclean must be washed with water. This was why the Israelites always required full body immersion in either a mikvah or body of “living water” by any who wished to convert. Through such an initiatory process a gentile could be allowed into the community of faith. This not only washed away their ceremonial uncleanness but also represented a death to their old life and a rebirth into a new one. Much like Christianity, the waters are prayed over and sanctified…consecrated for this purpose and the Lord overseeing this bestowed the necessary blessings whereby He sanctified the individual recipients.

Baptism, or immersion, was required in many other instances as well. The priests not only had to be immersed before Yom Kippur and the other yearly festivals, but the High Priest had to also be immersed after sending off the scape goat (the azazel). Many individuals also practiced ritual immersion in preparation for Shabbat. If one wanted to dedicate themselves to service, such as in the case of a Nazarite, they also had to be immersed as a sign of intended repentance. They would be reckoned as dead to their old life, and for the time of their vow they lived in a newness of life. Then finally (but not exclusively as you will see) there is the taharah (purification) service, or the washing of the dead for burial.

So because of all this, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan in his book, Waters of Eden (Mesorah Publications, 1993) this Rabbi describes this practice in Israel preceding at least Hillel (100 B.C.) and that this immersion in a mikvah is a type of womb as well as a type of tomb. The waters of life are reminiscent of Creation where the waters above separated from the waters below brought forth the ground from which Adam was made, and then again Eden itself, surrounded by waters. Brides and grooms are immersed symbolizing the newness of life they will share as one. These are all great times of transformation, rebirth, elevation into a higher order, consecration into a Holy purpose, and so on.

In Mikvah: The Art of Transition (found at Chabad.org), scholar Avraham Trugman tells us they baptized “in order to become ritually pure after a temporary state of ritual impurity, or when a person or object changes status…! The same rule applies even when textiles, instruments, or vessels, were dedicated to use by the Lord. These all had to be passed through the waters of purification. When immersed in living waters (consecrated, blessed waters) life “swallows up death.” The status of that object or person from God’s standpoint has been changed.

That is the same purpose it should hold for anyone not only Jewish people...it is what God prescribed for when He sets apart a person or object for His purpose or use...

Be blessed

Paul

Hoshiyya said:

How does baptism fit into a (Messianic) Jewish life ?

When does one do it ?

If it is something indeed separate from Mikveh, what is the goal of it, what is the origin of it, and how does one do it ?
Is there a place where instructions and information can be found, besides the little info we have in the NT ?

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Are you willing to revisit the conversation hoshyah?

Hoshiyya said:

1 )

In praxis, it is often used (among Protestants, Evangelicals, Mormons) as a maturation/coming-of-age ritual, much like Bar Mitzva. Catholics (and probably also the Orthodox) have something else called "Confirmation" which is similar to Bar Mitzva.

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No, the Orthodox do not have "confirmation". The practice is infant baptism and also a naming ceremony similar to that in Judaism.

Hoshiyya said:

Evidently some Christians disagree with you.

But I may as well ask:

- is this "sign of commitment" a necessity, or just a free-will offering as it were?

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There is something in the makeup of man that requires action to express the heart. It is equally important that this "sign of commitment" be done before others as evidence witnessed of this commitment. Like marriage, the exchange of vows, seals the heart, if sincere.