Eternal Hell Justified (part 2)

I am posting here because I want the skeptics and atheists who don't necessarily believe in the Bible to be able to reply.

Logical case for eternal hell. Debating online over the years I see repeated questions against God, and one that I see that has not been refuted is this one: "why would God send someone to infinite hell, for finite sins?" When a skeptic asks this question they assume that they have won. Because most of the time they do win. But not this time. See our soul is spirit. Not physical. So without mass according to the theory of relativity, there is no time. So our souls are eternal by default according to known science, that is not even incorporating meta physics at that point. So technically all actions are performed by our eternal souls. Every hate filled word, every fear, every lust. It's all stamped in eternity. Because sin itself, is eternal, it must be punished eternally. Eternal hell is not a long time. It's outside of time and space. That is why I don't think the geocentric hell is really hell. Some guys believe hell is in the core of the earth. I don't think we need a physical molten fire at all, hell will be spiritually empowered. It could in fact be enflamed by God's glory itself upon sin. We don't know. That is the first part of the logical case for hell, and the strongest. The second part of this is to describe why would God send us to hell in general, why not just a prison or something else?
I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.
see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.
but my logical case for eternal hell is not based on one sin. My logical case for eternal hell is that God, who can read our thoughts and minds, and also who is perfect, can read our wickedness, and cannot forget every detail of every sin, so in an average lifetime, that is thirty thousand sins for an extremely moral person who only sins once a day. IF you do the math, 365 times eighty years, is a little under thirty thousand sins. So God is reminded of thirty thousand times you were angry, hated, lusted, stole from work, cheated on taxes, etc, etc. And when you look at the holiness of God, every time you are angry that is like murder, and every time you lusted after someone on the internet, that was like adultery and fornication. So at the end of the day, thirty thousand mortal sins creates a situation where a physical prison does not meet up with the amount of sin. If a murderer is killed for one act of committing a serial murder (under capital punishment laws,) then thirty thousand angry thoughts, of murder is not paid for by a single death. It must be paid for by eternal misery.
At this point you may be wondering how to escape from Hell...
Most people think they are relatively good people who will go to heaven one day. I just have a few questions for that person.
How many lies have you told in your whole life? (what do they call someone who lies?) -a liar
Have you ever said [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] on social media, or used God's name as a curse word? (the Bible calls that Blasphemy)
Have you ever stolen anything (regardless of value) in your whole life? (what do they call people who steal?) -Thieves
Have you ever looked with lust upon someone? (the Bible calls that adultery)
now by your own admission, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulteror at heart. And that is only four of the ten commandments. Now if God judges you by the ten commandments when you die, will you get heaven or hell? (most of us would say Hell).
So does that concern you? It concerns me.
I love you and I don't want anyone to go to hell.
In order to be saved one must do two things. Repent of any known sin, and trust in the Finished work of Christ.
If you were in court for a speeding ticket and they condemned you to prison and I stepped in and paid the fine, you would get off free.
That is what Jesus did on the cross, HE paid the fine for the world. Now all they have to do is endorse the check, but most won't.
because in order to endorse that check, they must repent and trust in Christ.
people would rather just believe in Jesus existence and hope they get to heaven.
James says even the devils believe, so what does that make us if we do the same?
we must repent, it's not an option.
But it's worth it.
(it does not mean we are perfect, but repentance becomes a tool we use as christians the rest of our lives)
If we believe in Jesus but we don't repent, we lack the one tool that helps us grow to be more like God later.
and heaven and eternal life, misses it's true meaning which is to be more loving of our enemies, our neighbors and God.
I know this is a heavy message,
but if you are a skeptic and you are not christian, yet you still do not believe in hell at all, watch this video it's a cardiologist interviewing people who had near death experiences and came back from hell itself....

The next post will be for christians who don't believe in hell, but are saved...

However I was unable to add this text due to length considerations, here 3 evidences of eternal hell from scripture, a teaser into the next post...

1. Matthew 25:46
   
   "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
   
   Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
   
   Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
2. secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
3. thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
   
   Revelation 14:11
   
   "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
   
   that verse proves that whoever worships the beast or his image or receives the mark will have the same destination as the beast and the false prophet.
   
   Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
   
   
   
   Now we need to know how long the beast and the false prophet and those who worship the beast are in hell, do they self destruct after so long or are they in there for eternity like it says?
   
   Now remember what it says in revelation 20, satan is bound after this for a 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3, and simultaneously the saints reign with Christ for 1000 years verses 4-6. Then after that satan is released to tempt those who were born in the millenium (verse 7-9), that never knew what temptation was and free will to sin due to Jesus ruling and "reigning with an iron rod" as the Bible says. Some will rebel at this time, and join satan, then after this happens the rebellion is crushed by God verse 9, and then what I want you to see here is this. Remember the beast and the false prophet, throne in the fire, before this thousand years? Well Satan is thrown in there, and they are still there! Read this verse...
   
   Rev 20:10
   
   "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
   
   notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later!
   
   This not part of the three arguments for eternal hell, but it is a separate argument that likens the fire from Sodom and Gomorrah to literal hell.
   
   
   
   Luke 17:29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
   
   
   
   
   
   Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
   
   
   
   
   
   Are you suggesting they are right now suffering in eternal fire? Or that the fire destroyed them for eternity?
   
   2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
   
   
   
   
   
   Or are you suggesting God did not put them in chains of dense darkness, but is instead punishing them before judgment has been passed?
   
   
   
   
   
   Chains of darkness - death - to there await the resurrection and judgement.
   
   
   
   
   
   Because "hell" the grave - is likened to sleep, where there exists no knowledge - no anything.
   
   
   
   
   
   Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.
   
   
   
   
   Hebrew Sheol, Greek Gehenna.
   
   SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
   
   
   
   So as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah who instead of being hurled into the lake of fire - had the lake of fire hurled onto them. And will never exist for eternity. The punishment is everlasting and the punishment is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life. And since no resurrection will be possible, it will be an eternal punishment. They will indeep weep and gnash their teeth for however long their mortal bodies can survive - as those at Sodom and Gomorrah wept and gnashed their teeth before being destroyed.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   no, when Revelation 20:10 happens, they will be there, hence the "are" in verse 10. And as I said before, they were placed in before the tribulation, and there 1000 years later, still. Burning.
   
   
   In in conclusion: here is one more verse:
   
   Mark 14:21
   
   but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.
   
   
   this verse should be confusing to an annihilationist, as if someone dies, it's not anything more than turning someone's soul off for eternity. Judas hung himself, and died. Very little pain involved. So why would Jesus say that it would be good for that man if he was never born?
   
   
   I await your responses.

The second half of this is for christians who don't believe in hell, but are genuinely saved...

"SINCE THE BIBLE IS A HIGHLY SYMBOLIC BOOK, HOW CAN WE BE SURE THAT HELL IS A LITERAL PLACE?"

The premise that the Bible is a symbolic book, much less a “highly” symbolic one, is a false premise. Yes, the Bible offers some symbolism, as do most writings of men, but Satan has deceived people into over-emphasizing Biblical symbolism. Most of the Bible deals with history—the history of man’s relationship to his Creator. Within that recorded history one can learn of many things about God and His plan. As He reveals these things to us, He sometimes uses symbolism, but this doesn’t make the Bible a symbolic book. It is simply a book that contains some symbolism.

In November, 1993, evangelist Billy Graham told Time magazine that he didn’t believe in a literal burning hell. He said that the Biblical hell was “possibly an illustration of how terrible it’s going to be—not fire, but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched.” Graham had no Scriptural authority for making such an assumption. A preacher’s duty is to preach all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not speculate about things that might “possibly” be an “illustration.” To make matters worse, Graham “air conditioned” hell by describing it as merely a “thirst for God,” something that wouldn’t move any sinner to repentance. Why didn’t Jesus describe hell this way, rather than leaving its occupants smoking with fire and brimstone? Graham’s symbolism is unscriptural symbolism, as is that of many other preachers.

When the Bible uses symbolism, it is quite obvious. Jesus once said, “I am the door.” (John 10:9) That statement cannot possibly be taken literally, so it must be taken as symbolism. He also said, “I am the good shepherd.” (John 10:14) Jesus wasn’t literally a shepherd, His followers aren’t literally sheep, and literal wolves (John 10:12) are not a threat to Christians. Those are symbolic terms because they can’t be literal.

Hell, on the other hand, can be literal. Is it possible that a Christian can be a sheep with four legs in a pasture? No, that’s not possible. Is it possible that a literal lake of fire can exist somewhere? Yes, just open any standard text book on physical science, and you can see a lake of fire. For that matter, just run an Internet search on “earth’s core,” and you’ll see plenty.

The term “hell” occurs 54 times in the Bible, and never once is it impossible for the word to be taken literally. Every time hell fire is mentioned in the new testament or old, the literal greek or hebrew word is literal fire. Take the first occurrence, for instance, which is Deuteronomy 32:22: “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” To say that “hell” in this verse is symbolic would demand further comment regarding the earth and the mountains. Are they symbolic as well? “Maybe they are,” one might suggest. Well, if they too are symbolic, then convenient symbolism becomes the standard by which men read and understand the Bible. If that’s the case, then why bother reading it at all? Everything in the Bible could mean anything, and no one would know anything for certain. There must be a safe standard by which we can distinguish symbolism from literal application. The safest standard is the possibility standard: if it’s possible that a given passage can be literal, then it is literal. If it’s impossible, then it’s symbolic (“I am the door,” etc.) Anyone who seeks a lesser standard is not a Bible believer and is not worthy of your attention.

(part three is a section answering some critics of eternal hell)


Is Hell Forever? (definition of aion, aionion)

Universalists and Jehovah's witnesses state that Hell is not eternal because aion means age not forever. Many state that because Aion can mean temporary period of time in greek and not forever that aion ALWAYS means temporary! Wrong! . That is the fallacy of committing illegitimate totality transfer. Just because aion means temporal in one instance does not mean it means that in every instance.


if aion universally means temporary then matthew 25:46 states that eternal life is only temporary because it's the same word for both.


Secondly,

"just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com


If and only If aion means temporary there would be aspects of God that would be temporary because the same greek word is used for God (aion)

1. The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
   
2. The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
   
3. God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
   
4. God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
   
5. God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
   
6. God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
   
7. God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
   
8. God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

ABOVE SECTION BY DON HEWEY OF Temporarily Disabled


DEFINITION OF "aionion" IN OUR VIEW OF HELL


BELOW SECTION BY Matt Slick of carm.org


Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.


To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is greek aionion"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.


The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.


With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.


This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:


who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)


The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?


The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.


John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."


The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.


Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."


It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.

Here are some text images of post one and two...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

That's a rather long read, for this thread, and maybe more is needed.
How can anyone address the mis-translations/ideas presented in English translations or stories of "hell", that do not exactly convey the original language / meaning ?

Click to expand...

I believe God's hand was on all translations and that God has allowed at least one or more "accurate translations" to each generation. IF you look at a hologram, you can take some scissors and cut a square out of the hologram, but if you turn it, the image can be seen around the cut square. That is how the Bible works. It may not be perfect in any one translation, but the originals are perfect, and God's hand was upon each generation as to be able to read the gospel and get saved. I believe eternal hell is an essential doctrine that God would have protected in the translation process. But again I mention some long posts, take some time and read them, I don't want to repeat too much here.

Der Alter said:

Lot of folks around claiming that the Bible is full of mistranslations. But what is the standard for determining if a word is mistranslated? I have never seen any evidence of any kind. All I have ever seen is arguments and inferences. something like this. "Torturing people forever in fire is terrible God would never do something so evil."
In another thread I have repeatedly asked for credible, verifiable, grammatical, lexical, historical etc. evidence supporting UR. One person argued "We have provided you evidence but you claim it is not credible etc. etc." To which I replied.,
One cannot provide grammatical evidence unless they consult a Hebrew/Greek grammar. Which are available free online.
One cannot provide lexical evidence without a Hebrew/Greek lexicon. Again available free online.
One cannot provide historical evidence without such evidence written at or near the times in question by participants or direct eyewitnesses. Quoting 19th-21st century "scholars" who do not provide such evidence is not historical evidence, in and of itself, but the unsupported opinions of the "scholars" which is no more compelling than yours or mine.

Click to expand...

amen brother, thanks for joining in on the conversation, I requested the other thread to close so that some more can come here. Godbless.

BigV said:

Well, let's see about winners and losers by the time the thread gets to a few pages.



Let me ask you a question. Why is it, that if I tortured someone, even an animal, like a pitbull, to death, I would be a sinner, but God can torture a human being and remain 'perfect'?

Secondly, consider that people are a product of our environment. Some of us learn to lie to survive abusive childhoods. Abusive childhoods that were predetermined for us by this 'good' God, who appointed our families and our genes. And yet, this God doesn't teach an abused 8 year old about what they should do when their drunk father beats their head against the wall because the kids soiled themselves in their sleep.

Then, this 8 year old grows up into an alcoholic who repeats the pattern.

And a 'just' God doesn't understand patterns? And must resort to primitive brute force every chance he gets?

Think about it, read the Old Testament and see the logic of this God. Death by stoning for working ona Saturday. See Numbers 15 about a case of a man gathering sticks on a Saturday who was killed for it!

Now, imagine the punishers. They are doing the will of a 'good' God while they are throwing rocks at a man who was gathering sticks on a Saturday, with intent to kill him! And this latter action is good, because a God told them to do it. While gathering sticks on a Saturday is so evil that it deserves punishment in an eternal hell?!?

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Sir if you gave that animal life to begin with, the net value of that life is simply because you wanted to give it life. It would literally not exist without you. If you created it out of dust, then you can literally decide to do with it what you want. So this is a false comparison. Secondly, an animal related to us is an emotional plea. Being cruel to animals is not the same as being cruel to a criminal. As I mention in the OP hell is because we have 30,000 sins in an average life time. A simple life long punishment to a prison is not enough.

BigV said:

Well, ask and you shall receive. I hope not to derail this thread too much, but the issue of grammatical, lexical, etc... comes up fairly regularly when the inconvenient (to Evangelical Christians) passages come up, such as the following:

NASB John 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

What does the text mean, verifiably, lexically,, grammatically, etc...? Taken literally, it means every believer will do the works of Jesus. But this is obviously not true, because no believer can do those works, except when they are in Africa or somewhere else where nobody can verify them.

So, to explain this away, American people come up with grammatical, lexical, etc... reasons not to read the text as written. But if you posit this for John 14, you must, to be consistent, posit this for Hell passages also, in my opinion.

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what does it mean verifiably, lexically? That is two completely different questions. You cannot verify it, if that is what you mean. you cannot realy verify or prove anything, nearly all of science is theories, that is they are unproven. Only math can be proven. That is why my first post was the logical case for hell. And you replied with that, using a book you don't believe in. So what may make things better is to try to debate the logic behind it first, then we can talk scripture.

BigV said:

An animal is given life by their parent animals. Humans are given life by their parents. Most of us learn this when we are in our teens. Even God cannot give a life to a human being unless his parents have sex! (Well, he can work with the medical professionals through artificial inseminations and such, but outside of these means, God is powerless to give life, but I digress).

Secondly, in Numbers 15, we observe how other humans are killing a man, and they are not doing evil. The evil, we are told, was done by the man being killed, whose crime is gathering sticks on a Saturday. Perhaps God can kill whom he wills, but why is he making people do the dirty deed? My hunch is, he wants to keep his hands clean?

Otherwise, he'd be a murderer, but now, he can do the killings through his people while being 'holy' and 'loving' and 'just'.

While I, BigV, am too big of a sinner for his holiness?!?



You lost me there, buddy.

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So your main premise is that the God who created life to begin with cannot end life? I thought He was God? I thought God could do anything? Also about animals, again.... if God gave life to animals, God can take away life from animals yes? Do you kill spiders in your home? Why can you usurp authority over an insect but God cannot do so when actually creating all life. I don't really follow the logic.

BigV said:

Well, let's see about winners and losers by the time the thread gets to a few pages.



Let me ask you a question. Why is it, that if I tortured someone, even an animal, like a pitbull, to death, I would be a sinner, but God can torture a human being and remain 'perfect'?

Secondly, consider that people are a product of our environment. Some of us learn to lie to survive abusive childhoods. Abusive childhoods that were predetermined for us by this 'good' God, who appointed our families and our genes. And yet, this God doesn't teach an abused 8 year old about what they should do when their drunk father beats their head against the wall because the kids soiled themselves in their sleep.

Then, this 8 year old grows up into an alcoholic who repeats the pattern.

And a 'just' God doesn't understand patterns? And must resort to primitive brute force every chance he gets?

Think about it, read the Old Testament and see the logic of this God. Death by stoning for working ona Saturday. See Numbers 15 about a case of a man gathering sticks on a Saturday who was killed for it!

Now, imagine the punishers. They are doing the will of a 'good' God while they are throwing rocks at a man who was gathering sticks on a Saturday, with intent to kill him! And this latter action is good, because a God told them to do it. While gathering sticks on a Saturday is so evil that it deserves punishment in an eternal hell?!?

Click to expand...

I wanted to also post this for some other believers in the Bible who do not believe it mentions eternal hell.... I added it to OP post one.

1. Matthew 25:46
   
   "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
   
   Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
   
   Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
2. secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
3. thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
   
   Revelation 14:11
   
   "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
   
   that verse proves that whoever worships the beast or his image or receives the mark will have the same destination as the beast and the false prophet.
   
   Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
   
   
   
   Now we need to know how long the beast and the false prophet and those who worship the beast are in hell, do they self destruct after so long or are they in there for eternity like it says?
   
   Now remember what it says in revelation 20, satan is bound after this for a 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3, and simultaneously the saints reign with Christ for 1000 years verses 4-6. Then after that satan is released to tempt those who were born in the millenium (verse 7-9), that never knew what temptation was and free will to sin due to Jesus ruling and "reigning with an iron rod" as the Bible says. Some will rebel at this time, and join satan, then after this happens the rebellion is crushed by God verse 9, and then what I want you to see here is this. Remember the beast and the false prophet, throne in the fire, before this thousand years? Well Satan is thrown in there, and they are still there! Read this verse...
   
   Rev 20:10
   
   "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
   
   notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later!
   
   This not part of the three arguments for eternal hell, but it is a separate argument that likens the fire from Sodom and Gomorrah to literal hell.
   
   
   
   Luke 17:29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
   
   
   
   
   
   Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
   
   
   
   
   
   Are you suggesting they are right now suffering in eternal fire? Or that the fire destroyed them for eternity?
   
   2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
   
   
   
   
   
   Or are you suggesting God did not put them in chains of dense darkness, but is instead punishing them before judgment has been passed?
   
   
   
   
   
   Chains of darkness - death - to there await the resurrection and judgement.
   
   
   
   
   
   Because "hell" the grave - is likened to sleep, where there exists no knowledge - no anything.
   
   
   
   
   
   Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.
   
   
   
   
   Hebrew Sheol, Greek Gehenna.
   
   SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
   
   
   
   So as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah who instead of being hurled into the lake of fire - had the lake of fire hurled onto them. And will never exist for eternity. The punishment is everlasting and the punishment is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life. And since no resurrection will be possible, it will be an eternal punishment. They will indeep weep and gnash their teeth for however long their mortal bodies can survive - as those at Sodom and Gomorrah wept and gnashed their teeth before being destroyed.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   no, when Revelation 20:10 happens, they will be there, hence the "are" in verse 10. And as I said before, they were placed in before the tribulation, and there 1000 years later, still. Burning.
   
   
   In in conclusion: here is one more verse:
   
   Mark 14:21
   
   but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.
   
   
   this verse should be confusing to an annihilationist, as if someone dies, it's not anything more than turning someone's soul off for eternity. Judas hung himself, and died. Very little pain involved. So why would Jesus say that it would be good for that man if he was never born?
   
   
   I await your responses.