Arianism and Jehovah's Witnesses

samwise gamgee said:

JWs may not agree with Arius in everything but they do share the erroneous belief that Jesus was a created being. Anyone holding this belief is a heretic and not a true Christian.

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There are of course many ways to find a flaw in their beliefs. The question is -- how to reach them? How to get them out of the mold of "I only believe what I am told to believe by my magisterium"

samwise gamgee said:

... They consider Jesus to be a lesser god and not equal to the Father.

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Interesting thing is that also Bible tells God is greater than Jesus:

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

If Jesus says the Father is greater than him, is there some reason not to believe Jesus?

Same thing comes also from the teachings of Paul:

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

I think it is sad, if people call themselves Christian (disciples of Jesus), when they don’t really believe what Jesus says.

Bible also tells Jesus is the image of God, which I think should be believed, if one is truly a disciple of Jesus.

…in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
Colossians 1:14

I think the simplest way is to believe Jesus and follow him, if one wants to be a real disciple of Jesus (“Christian”).

Ayenew said:

I have met with Jehovah's Witnesses and discussed on some faith matters. I have got their beliefs similar with what I have read about Arianism. Are they trying to restore that Arian thing.

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I don't think it's a matter of restoring Arianism, as it is promoting what they believe the Scriptures teach. Yes, they deny the Trinity doctrine, BUT … there are plenty of denominations and sects that deny the Trinity. The main difference between these groups and the JW's is that the Watchtower leadership tends to relegate the role of Jesus as just one of many servants of Jehovah. They are very much like the Nation of Israel, where Jehovah is their tribal god.

Charles Taze Russell who was the founder of the Watch Tower Society, although a non Trinitarian believed Jesus was the creator, he believed in worshipping Jesus and believed Jesus was his personal Lord and Savior and taught to always put Jesus first in ones life. In fact he wrote an article where he stated "What Would Jesus Do?", I don't know, he may have coined the phrase.

After his death, just about everything he taught was either discarded or perverted and Judge Rutherford the true founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses, began promoting Jehovah and throwing Jesus in the backseat, and they continue down that road to this day. Not only have their Governing Body relegated Jesus to the backseat, they have usurped his position and have become mediators between God and the average Jehovah's Witness.

Ayenew said:

On my way, I have met with Jehovah's Witnesses and discussed on some faith matters. I have got their beliefs similar with what I have read about Arianism. Are they trying to restore that Arian thing.

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That appears to be their view.

However I recently found it much more productive to discuss the New Covenant with them as well as Christ being our mediator. That seems to be the "ticket" with Jehovah's Witnesses.

By contrast with the Trinity doctrine they see themselves on one side -- and you on the other. But with the New Covenant and Christ as our Mediator they have a hard time opposing your view yet they know they have a problem with it.

BobRyan said:

However I recently found it much more productive to discuss the New Covenant with them as well as Christ being our mediator. That seems to be the "ticket" with Jehovah's Witnesses.

By contrast with the Trinity doctrine they see themselves on one side -- and you on the other. But with the New Covenant and Christ as our Mediator they have a hard time opposing your view yet they know they have a problem with it.

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That sounds about right. One can argue the trinity till blue in the face. Let's face it, there is nothing in scripture that states you must believe in the trinity for salvation. But there are plenty that state you must believe in Jesus. At this point, the rank and file among the Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus. Per their teaching, only those who are spirit begotten have that relationship, thus the rank and file (Other Sheep/Great Crowd) gain their salvation by listening to what the "Faithful and Discreet Slave Class" tells them to do. So as long as they do their bidding, they'll enter into the Kingdom.

KingdomLeast said:

That sounds about right. One can argue the trinity till blue in the face. Let's face it, there is nothing in scripture that states you must believe in the trinity for salvation. But there are plenty that state you must believe in Jesus. At this point, the rank and file among the Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus. Per their teaching, only those who are spirit begotten have that relationship, thus the rank and file (Other Sheep/Great Crowd) gain their salvation by listening to what the "Faithful and Discreet Slave Class" tells them to do. So as long as they do their bidding, they'll enter into the Kingdom.

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They say that only those chose faithful servant 144,000 have Christ as the "one mediator between God and man" and only they are under the New Covenant. That means they are forced to "place high value" on Christ as the One Mediator between God and man, and on the New Covenant. Yet they are being taught - they don't have that benefit - only their now-almost-all-deceased 144,000 had it.

So when we come to them saying "well we all have it" as born again Christians. This put them at a huge disadvantage (in their own estimation) to evangelize us - since that would be the very difficult task of trying to evangelize us to not have Christ as Mediator - which even they admit is a disadvantage compared to have that benefit.

Everyone should be using this approach with them to see what happens

HTacianas said:

The JWs are not Arians. They believe that Jesus is in fact the Archangel Michael. No Word, no Trinity, no commonality with Christianity. Their beliefs don't even fit into any of the ancient heresies such as Arianism.

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Ar·i·an·ism
/ˈerēəˌnizəm/
Learn to pronounce
nounCHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
an influential heresy denying the divinity of Christ, originating with the Alexandrian priest Arius ( c. 250– c. 336). Arianism maintained that the Son of God was created by the Father and was therefore neither coeternal with the Father, nor consubstantial.

That is exactly what the Watchtower teaches.

HTacianas said:

The JWs are not Arians. They believe that Jesus is in fact the Archangel Michael. No Word, no Trinity, no commonality with Christianity. Their beliefs don't even fit into any of the ancient heresies such as Arianism.

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From the Watchtower,

Because they do not believe in the Trinity dogma, it has been said of Jehovah’s Witnesses that they practice “a form of Arianism.”* ... Because the fourth-century dissident theologian Arius stated the Biblical truth that “the Son is not unbegotten,” and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that truth, The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: “The Christology of Jehovah’s Witnesses, also, is a form of Arianism.”
w84 9/1 pp. 25-30 - The Watchtower—1984

In 325 C.E., as yet unbaptized, he presided over the first great ecumenical council of the “Christian” church, which condemned Arianism and drew up a statement of essential beliefs called the Nicene Creed. ... Arianism was a “Christian” movement of the fourth century that denied the divinity of Jesus Christ.
w98 3/15 pp. 26-30 - The Watchtower—1998

Constantine the Great—A Champion of Christianity? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
“We Worship What We Know” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

1213 said:

Interesting thing is that also Bible tells God is greater than Jesus:

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

If Jesus says the Father is greater than him, is there some reason not to believe Jesus?

Same thing comes also from the teachings of Paul:

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

I think it is sad, if people call themselves Christian (disciples of Jesus), when they don’t really believe what Jesus says.

Bible also tells Jesus is the image of God, which I think should be believed, if one is truly a disciple of Jesus.

…in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
Colossians 1:14

I think the simplest way is to believe Jesus and follow him, if one wants to be a real disciple of Jesus (“Christian”).

Click to expand...

The President of the USA is greater than me.

This thread is at least interesting.

Are there any in dept articles on arianism online?

HTacianas said:

The JWs are not Arians. They believe that Jesus is in fact the Archangel Michael. No Word, no Trinity, no commonality with Christianity. Their beliefs don't even fit into any of the ancient heresies such as Arianism.

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That is a good point ... even the Arianism of ancient history did not go to the point of claiming Jesus was "just an angel".

But on the other hand JWs do claim Jesus is the Son of God

read to here