His student
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Struggles with Calvinism
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Tropical Wilds
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On the off chance the OP is still reading and hasnt converted to Atheism because of this thread, let me tell you... You’ve made a big decision that you’re in the early stages of living out and applying to your life. Relish it, take it at your own pace, and don’t put so much pressure on yourself to understand it all. As you can see, nobody here has it figured out, and they’ve been Christians for way longer than you have.
Take a deep breath. Relax. God is here for us. Ultimately, that’s the only information you need and should take to heart.
Take a deep breath. Relax. God is here for us. Ultimately, that’s the only information you need and should take to heart.
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Guojing
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I see it this way. If an ant has a brain, it will wonder how in the world human beings can run without being on instinct.
Thus I have no problems accepting that God can know everything and yet allow free will. God is outside time, he sees our past present and future happening at the same “time” in front of him always
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As I said before, I was a Calvinist. It's things like we see in the Confession that made me reject it. Things like logical contradictions, words not meaning what they mean, the Bible not meaning what it plainly says, and so on. I'm about the truth, not doctrines, I don't care what doctrine get tossed as long as I get to the truth.
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His student
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That's one way to look at it.
But I have found (here in the forum particularly) that it seems more likely to make men proud of their spiritual life.
That may be a nice slogan. But it simply isn't true. I loved both of my babies when they couldn't resist it at all.
But, for what it's worth, it isn't love that Calvinists say is irresistible - it's grace, the proof of love.
Right on. Couldn't have said it better myself.
It is our willful choices that God has ordained to take place. Your logic is flawed and you are believing your own strawmen.
It's bad logic.
God can and does preordain that the free choices of men be allowed to happen without coercion from Him. He did it with Jesus and He did it with those who chose to crucify Him.
God did not force or coerce Jesus to make the good choices He made throughout His life. But I'll guarantee you that it was foreordained that He do so.
God did not force or coerce bad men to kill Jesus. But I guarantee you that it was foreordained that they do so.
Again - your statements are not only based on bad logic that has been infected by your bias - they are clearly not Biblical as well.
I have spoken to you before on this subject.
No one said you were a Calvinist.
A seeming contradiction may well be possible. But it takes an open and unbiased mind to think it through.
People who have made up their mind to stand against anything believed by another group will not likely be able to agree with even a portion that the other group believes.
I object to several things that Calvinists often teach and I object to several things that anti Calvinists often teach.
That's as it should be whenever the scriptural facts say so.
"I am of Paul" and I am of Apollos" is not the kind of attitude that leads to a balanced view of theological things.
Often times taking some from column A and some from column B makes for a more balanced plate.
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Silverback
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We are all saved by God's grace, for Christ sake, through faith.
If you believe that, if you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and you sincerely believe, and trust in his promises to save you, then you are on the winning team.
Did you believe this because you are of the elect? or, did you make a decision to accept Christ as your Lord and savior?
Either way, you are still saved by God's grace, for Christ sake, through faith.
If you can wrap your head around "total depravity" the rest of Calvinist theology is pretty easy to get behind.
I once was told that if God did not elect some for salvation, considering man's sinful nature, and that he is only inclined to evil, that it's probable that no one would make a decision to believe, and follow Christ. If that's the case, then Christ died for nothing, and no one is saved.
God does not elect anyone for damnation, that is the justly deserved punishment for everyone who has ever lived on this earth.
But since we have such a loving, and gracious God he has chosen to be merciful to some, and grant them eternal life, not because anyone was more deserving than any one else, it was a total gracious act of mercy...this is Unconditional Election. However, others were passed by, and they receive justice, but no one receives injustice.
Remember, you are saved by God's grace, for Christ sake, through faith. How you get there does not really matter, whether by election, or, decision, you are on the winning team.
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StillGods
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Well it certainly was a theme in the Calvinist based church I went to... and the church the op went to it sounds like aswell.
In a small Bible study group at that church I was told by a staunch calvinist in no uncertain terms that God does not love everyone!
..so you cant tell me it's something calvinist churches dont teach because at the one I went to it most certainly was. I'm so glad I left and am now at a church that knows God better.
but maybe calvinists truely dont realise that is the message they are sending. it's not good they say God doesnt love people, it's not correct and imo misrepresents God.
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reformed05
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No
Not really. Maybe if you don't try to understand what it means. That is the problem with TULIP. People just skim the surface of the acronym without investigating the meaning. The words used are archaic to our language today and to be honest, at first reading it made me cringe. But you see, you can't separate the letters and get the true meaning. If you believe T it lead to U and those two conclude the existence of L which results in I and then P. I could go through and clarify the archaic language but I know you are not interested and that is perfectly fair. I am not in the business of changing anyone's mind . I find it difficult to not correct misstatements about Reformed Theology. There are so many! Spoken with authority and it is truly unkind and completely unfair. I have spoken to others sarcastically and for this I am ashamed. But I have never ridiculed their beliefs or said what they believed was not Christian, or people should run from it, or what they believed made God evil. The horrible things I am accused of believing. Frankly I feel I am owed an apology but I know I'll never get one.
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reformed05
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Precisely, I don't need to understand it. Trust in Him.
I disagree with what you said when you touched on Calvinism there but man's doctrine doesn't save. We know who does and instead of you and I debating it let's just take a moment to thank Him instead.
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Alistair_Wonderland
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Calvinism is everything I stand against. It spreads so many lies about God. If I were an unbeliever and heard someone tell me that God already chose who goes to Heaven and who doesn't I would just keep doing what I'm doing. It's pretty much saying you can't get saved unless you're lucky.
I actually watch a cartoon series where storybook characters are arguing over whether they should follow their stories or live their own life. And one thing which stood out to me was the sheer unfairness that one of the characters was being told to be a villain when she didn't want to be, and her destiny was to eventually be cast into a dungeon by the very people who were telling her to become a villain. She disobeys, and guess what? They act like she's a troublemaker because of it. That's pretty much what Calvinism is. You're quite literally damned if you you and damned if you don't.
Now I know Paul mentions some things which Calvinists would use to support their viewpoint. But humans are very single-minded, and will misconstrue the words of Romans 9:16-20 by taking them on their own.
The Part Calvinists Remember
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”…
But there's a second part to this:
The Part Calvinists Forget
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory....
This set of verses isn't about "God chooses who's bad and who's good." It's about God choosing to reinforce the people in the choices they made. You see, God lives outside of time. So while He does give us free will, He also knows all the choices we will make before he even makes us. What Paul is saying might be better put like this:
"God made bad people even though He knew they would choose evil, because He knew that even in their wickedness He could find a way to use it to show His goodness and glory to others. That's why He's so patient with evil people; because He's merciful, even though He knows that they will never change and He will eventually have to destroy them."
That's the way I see it. I am an artist, and I think we can all agree that God is one, too. And speaking as an artist, I would never create something I did not love. And If I love something, I will not punish it for the sake of my own personal pleasure. God isn't Sid from Toy Story. He isn't some Lovecraftian deity. He's the purest embodiment of Love in its perfection. He is our Father. And good fathers don't play favorites; God ingrained that in the minds of even unbelievers.
I actually watch a cartoon series where storybook characters are arguing over whether they should follow their stories or live their own life. And one thing which stood out to me was the sheer unfairness that one of the characters was being told to be a villain when she didn't want to be, and her destiny was to eventually be cast into a dungeon by the very people who were telling her to become a villain. She disobeys, and guess what? They act like she's a troublemaker because of it. That's pretty much what Calvinism is. You're quite literally damned if you you and damned if you don't.
Now I know Paul mentions some things which Calvinists would use to support their viewpoint. But humans are very single-minded, and will misconstrue the words of Romans 9:16-20 by taking them on their own.
The Part Calvinists Remember
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”…
But there's a second part to this:
The Part Calvinists Forget
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory....
This set of verses isn't about "God chooses who's bad and who's good." It's about God choosing to reinforce the people in the choices they made. You see, God lives outside of time. So while He does give us free will, He also knows all the choices we will make before he even makes us. What Paul is saying might be better put like this:
"God made bad people even though He knew they would choose evil, because He knew that even in their wickedness He could find a way to use it to show His goodness and glory to others. That's why He's so patient with evil people; because He's merciful, even though He knows that they will never change and He will eventually have to destroy them."
That's the way I see it. I am an artist, and I think we can all agree that God is one, too. And speaking as an artist, I would never create something I did not love. And If I love something, I will not punish it for the sake of my own personal pleasure. God isn't Sid from Toy Story. He isn't some Lovecraftian deity. He's the purest embodiment of Love in its perfection. He is our Father. And good fathers don't play favorites; God ingrained that in the minds of even unbelievers.
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reformed05
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Stillgods
Personally I have never hea
Personally I have never hea
Personally I have never heard a Calvinist say that God doesn't love everyone but I admit that I'm not surprised it happened. In a huge number of our visible churches the preachers teach things that are no Biblical, many pervert even basic Christology so I'm sure the same thing happens in Reformed churches. I'm sorry that happened to you and am glad you are in good place now. For exactly the reasons given above, and other reasons, I don't attend a church now. Your experience was bad but it does not represent true Reformed Theology, which of course you have no way of knowing. Just maybe not bash all of us Rformds
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reformed05
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I heard something similar recently and it made me think of leaving. Up until the last few months our pastor just seemed to preach the bible as is, linking it to other parts and adding in interesting historical detail. I liked that, I couldn't identify doctrine in the well written sermons.
I heard the Pastor saying some people can never saved.. or something similar. That was the third time they'd mentioned Calvinistic teachings in a few weeks.
However, I don't particularly go for the sermons anymore. My main focus is to worship and to fellowship.
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