Salvation Cannot be Lost
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Phil W
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Can we be saved without believing?
Isn't "believing" a work done by us for salvation?
What is your definition of "works"?
Paul's was the Mosaic Law, ie circumcision and dietary laws.
They won't save anyone in the NT.
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S.ilvio
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This is where you guys are always found out. You have to turn Scripture on its head in order for it to fit your dangerously erroneous Theology.
Ignore Scripture's warnings at your peril...
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thomas15 said: ↑
In response to the question is the persons in Matthew 7:23 are they saved, Phil W states:
I would personally like for you to prove this.
This is proven by Jesus' words, "I NEVER knew you". He could NOT have said that to anyone who EVER believed, even if they didn't believe at that time.
They were never believers, and never saved. In fact, what was their basis for getting into the kingdom? Works. Stuff they did. They were just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.
In response to the question is the persons in Matthew 7:23 are they saved, Phil W states:
I would personally like for you to prove this.
What many people miss or just misunderstand is that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were NEVER saved to begin with.
This is proven by Jesus' words, "I NEVER knew you". He could NOT have said that to anyone who EVER believed, even if they didn't believe at that time.
They were never believers, and never saved. In fact, what was their basis for getting into the kingdom? Works. Stuff they did. They were just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.
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No. That's the ONLY WAY anyone CAN be saved.
No, it is not a work. Paul made that clear in Rom 4;4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
If that wasn't clear, consider what else Paul said on the subject:
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
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I said:
"The clarity is in how "cut off" would be understood by Hebrew believers.
All through the OT the words "cut off" were used to refer to capital punishment, or physical death as a result of crimes committed.
Please provide any verse that clearly indicates that "cut off" means loss of salvation.
But why bother? We KNOW what Jesus said. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28
Do you believe what Jesus said about recipients in John 10:28 or not?"
I pointed out the words "cut off" were used in the OT for physical death through capital punishment. So prove me wrong. Don't just accept your own opinion about things.
Second, I asked you a very simple question based on what Jesus said. And YOU dodged it. That's where ALL Arminians are found out.
They know their answer contradicts what Jesus said, so they just ignore the pesky little question.
And I don't ignore ANY of Scripture's warnings. And NONE of them are about losing salvation.
This is what amazes me about Arminians. Jesus was clear that once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.
But the Arminians continue to push their emotional opinions that recipients CAN perish.
The exact opposite of what Jesus taught.
You, sir, have been "found out".
You don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
"The clarity is in how "cut off" would be understood by Hebrew believers.
All through the OT the words "cut off" were used to refer to capital punishment, or physical death as a result of crimes committed.
Please provide any verse that clearly indicates that "cut off" means loss of salvation.
But why bother? We KNOW what Jesus said. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28
Do you believe what Jesus said about recipients in John 10:28 or not?"
Actually, the opposite is true. This is where YOU GUYS are found out.
I pointed out the words "cut off" were used in the OT for physical death through capital punishment. So prove me wrong. Don't just accept your own opinion about things.
Second, I asked you a very simple question based on what Jesus said. And YOU dodged it. That's where ALL Arminians are found out.
They know their answer contradicts what Jesus said, so they just ignore the pesky little question.
And I don't ignore ANY of Scripture's warnings. And NONE of them are about losing salvation.
This is what amazes me about Arminians. Jesus was clear that once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.
But the Arminians continue to push their emotional opinions that recipients CAN perish.
The exact opposite of what Jesus taught.
You, sir, have been "found out".
You don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
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S.ilvio
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I'm Catholic. If Arminians agree that Salvatuon can be lost then good for them.
You blatantly ignore passages in Romans and Hebrews that are definitive on the possibility of being cut off from God.
While you engage in illogical gymnastics trying to defend your grave error...
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Not good for either Catholics or Arminians. Becuase Jesus says the OPPOSITE.
This is what He said in John 10:28:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
So, how do you get from never perishing, to CAN perish?? Please explain.
Don't lecture me about who is blatantly ignoring passages. Your view is in direct opposition to that of the Lord Jesus.
As to being "cut off", the term is used in the OT for capital punishment. Do your research.
Oh, what a hoot!!
I'll tell you what is illogical. Directly opposing the words of Jesus Christ.
Shame on you.
Your theology is unbiblical.
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I said:
"This is what He said in John 10:28:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
So, how do you get from never perishing, to CAN perish?? Please explain.
Don't lecture me about who is blatantly ignoring passages. Your view is in direct opposition to that of the Lord Jesus."
"This is what He said in John 10:28:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
So, how do you get from never perishing, to CAN perish?? Please explain.
Don't lecture me about who is blatantly ignoring passages. Your view is in direct opposition to that of the Lord Jesus."
Rather, there you have it folks, another Arminian who won't face the facts and truth about what Jesus said. He won't even discuss the verse because he knows he doesn't agree with what Jesus said.
Look into a mirror when repeating this. Often.
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2:20-21, St Peter writes, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
Heb 6:4-6 it says, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
Matt 7:21, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father."
Seriously. Its there in black and white. Yet you have to engage in selective blindness to fit your illogical Theology...
Heb 6:4-6 it says, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
Matt 7:21, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father."
Seriously. Its there in black and white. Yet you have to engage in selective blindness to fit your illogical Theology...
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Phil W
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I agree, as those born again have the seed of God within them to prevent falling to iniquity. (1 John 3:9)
Again, I agree.
The "stuff they did", that proved they never knew each other, was iniquity.
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)
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Phil W
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If believing, for salvation, isn't a work, what is?
Circumcision, dietary laws, tithing, feast keeping, sabbath days, days of atonement, temple worship, etc. are the works Paul taught were unnecessary for salvation.
Not hearing, believing, having faith, confessing, repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, or continued obedience to God.
Amen to that.
God makes new creatures that can remain obedient till the end!
Creatures that have, by the grace of God, crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Creatures with the faith that God's words are true...Words like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Creatures that always "look for and take the escapes" He promised were there.[/QUOTE]
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You ended your post with this:
"Seriously. Its there in black and white. Yet you have to engage in selective blindness to fit your illogical Theology..."
So, I'll make comments about every passage to show what it means.
Also, Paul spoke of God's discipline in progressive stages in 1 Cor 11:30. Weakness, sickness, and physical death.
All of this would fit the 2 Peter passage about the believer's life AFTER re-entanglement with the defilements of the world.
However, the statement doesn't mention salvation at all, but rather, repentance. Scholars note that the group being written to was either returning to animal sacrifices or considering it, based on persecution from other Jews. Animal sacrifices was the OT system of atonement, as a shadow of the coming Messiah.
So, believers who have already believed in the Messiah would not repent if they returned to the sacrifices of the Law, thinking the Law would atone for their sins.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Now, v.21 mentions the "will of the Father". This is clearly defined in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
v.22 is the crowd's basis for entering the kingdom: what THEY did. Nothing about Jesus did for them. They show by their comment that they never believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.
v.23 the fact that they never believed is shown by Jesus' comment to them: "I NEVER knew you." If any of them had EVER believed, He couldn't have said that He "NEVER knew them".
Thanks.
"Seriously. Its there in black and white. Yet you have to engage in selective blindness to fit your illogical Theology..."
So, I'll make comments about every passage to show what it means.
It seems many people ASSUME "last state become worse" refers to ending up in hell. However, given the larger context that the passage is found in, the "last state" more naturally refers to the believer's life AFTER getting again entangled in the defilements of the world. iow, the believer will face God's divine discipline, which is painful, according to Heb 12:11.
Also, Paul spoke of God's discipline in progressive stages in 1 Cor 11:30. Weakness, sickness, and physical death.
All of this would fit the 2 Peter passage about the believer's life AFTER re-entanglement with the defilements of the world.
Again, it seems many ASSUME "impossible to restore again to repentance" refers to being impossible to regain salvation if they commit apostasy.
However, the statement doesn't mention salvation at all, but rather, repentance. Scholars note that the group being written to was either returning to animal sacrifices or considering it, based on persecution from other Jews. Animal sacrifices was the OT system of atonement, as a shadow of the coming Messiah.
So, believers who have already believed in the Messiah would not repent if they returned to the sacrifices of the Law, thinking the Law would atone for their sins.
I wish you had added the next 2 verses, since all 3 verses are together. So I'll provide them.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Now, v.21 mentions the "will of the Father". This is clearly defined in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
v.22 is the crowd's basis for entering the kingdom: what THEY did. Nothing about Jesus did for them. They show by their comment that they never believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.
v.23 the fact that they never believed is shown by Jesus' comment to them: "I NEVER knew you." If any of them had EVER believed, He couldn't have said that He "NEVER knew them".
Now, it's your turn to address these same passages and explain them how you understand them.
Thanks.
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It's a passive response to God's promise through His Son.
I gave 2 passages. Didn't you see the distinction make between works and grace?
Works create a debt or obligation. Grace is free. One can't work for it or earn it.
Correct.
Hearing and believing are passive responses to the gospel.
Confession, repentance from sin, water baptism and 'continued obedience to God' are ALL WORKS.
No where in the Bible will you read that any of those things will result in salvation.
And God knows that no one will. So He provided the means of forgiveness and cleansing from our sins in 1 John 1:9.
Rom 6:3-5
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
This passage shows our identification with Christ in His own death, burial and resurrection. This is known as positional truth. Because the believer is in union with Christ (in Him), we are identified in what He went through.
And v.4 shows that water baptism is a symbol or represents our identification with Christ.
Here are some verses that refute your claim that believers become sinless permanently.
Rom 6
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
This verse doesn't say we ARE dead to sin, but to COUNT yourself dead to sin.Thi
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
This verse proves that the believer CAN still sin, by the command to "do NOT LET sin reign in your mortal body". If a regenerated person no longer has a sin nature, this command is worse than useless. It would be absurd.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
More evidence that believers CAN offer parts of their bodies to sin.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
Here, Paul even asks if we should sin? Obviously, we CAN. Not that we should. But you claim a regenerated person cannot sin.
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
This verse shows the choice EVERY believer has, including yourself. It's a choice about to whom you offer yourself as a slave; either to sin or righteousness.
But it is a choice, yet your claim is that a regenerated person cannot sin.
Now consider what Paul taught in 1 Cor 5
5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. This refers to the incestuous believer in the congregation. Paul's warning is physical death at the hand of Satan.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
In v.11, the words "claims to be a brother" is not accurate. The tense is passive and means "anyone considered to be a brother". iow, thought to be a fellow believer by others, not by their own claim.
In v.12, Paul distinguishes between NOT judging unbelievers (those outside the church) but having discernment of believers (those inside).
If you still want to think the incestuous guy or those considered to be a brother are not really saved, Paul had more to say on the subject.\
1 Thess 3
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.
Obviously Paul knew that some believers would misbehave. And while we are commanded to not associate with them, same as in 1 Cor 5, we are NOT to regard them as an enemy, but warn them as a fellow believer.
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S.ilvio
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Come on.
You have just proved my point.
I provide several clear and distinct warnings of the consequences for people who turn from God.
Then you have to put a twist on them to fit your error strewn Theology.
We need to understand we are all unworthy sinners. Yet God gives everyone access to his Grace if we accept the perfect the sacrifice of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. Doing good works that please God. Continuous repentance of sin. Faithfully partaking in the Sacraments. Faithfully following Scripture and the Traditions of the Church. These are the keys to salvation...
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I said:
"It's (belief) a passive response to God's promise through His Son."
The "work" if fully God's. He provided the salvation through His Son. That was a mighty work, to pay for the sins of all of humanity.
In receiving a gift (for eternal life and salvation ARE gifts of God), the passive reception of that gift cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called a work.
"It's (belief) a passive response to God's promise through His Son."
I fully agree. And this doesn't mean it's a work either.
The "work" if fully God's. He provided the salvation through His Son. That was a mighty work, to pay for the sins of all of humanity.
In receiving a gift (for eternal life and salvation ARE gifts of God), the passive reception of that gift cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called a work.
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I'm right here.
No, I refuted your point by addressing EVERY verse/passage you gave in green ink. Maybe you didn't read them. Or if you didn't understand any of them, please ask, and I will be happy to explain with more clarity.
And I explained what they were warning about. God's discipline, which is painful, per Heb 12:11. And I gave biblical examples to prove it.
Everything I explained was straightforward and simple. I twisted nothing. Apparently I twisted your error strewn theology, and you are feeling it.
Agreed.
Absolutely!!
Everything in this paragraph just SCREAMS of works. Please provide Scripture that TELLS us that these things are necessary (the keys) to salvation.
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Also, there are NO verses that teach that salvation is by faith plus works.
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