What about Reve 20:9 ...."encompassed the Camp of the Saints and City"

Dave L said:

Could it be you are in over your head in this matter?

Click to expand...

End times is my area of expertise, Dave.

Douggg said:

End times is my area of expertise, Dave.

Click to expand...

That's where you are most vulnerable. As Han Solo said to Luke after he thwarted an Empire attack; "don't get cocky kid".

Dave L said:

That's where you are most vulnerable. As Han Solo said to Luke after he thwarted an Empire attack; "don't get cocky kid".

Click to expand...

Dave, you made an uncalled for accusation, and I responded politely. Leave it at that.

Dave L said:

If Esther didn't fit the prophecy we would still limit it to bygone eras because of the weaponry. Here's something that might interest you. Kayser Commentary | The Battle of Gog and Magog Fulfilled in Esther

Click to expand...

In both passages the fear of the Lord falls upon the Gentiles and there is a conversion of Gentiles to the true faith (Ezek. 38:23; 39:7; Esther 8:17)

Kayser Commentary | The Battle of Gog and Magog Fulfilled in Esther

Let's focus on this one for now since all it takes is finding just one contradiction in order to prove this author was incorrect about these things.

Esther 8:17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Anybody else reading the above text does not see the text indicating there is the fear of LORD involved here. The text clearly states this instead---for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Maybe the above author thinks the Jews and the LORD are one and the same, but anyone with any good common sense would not think that. And speaking of the LORD God, guess who is not mentioned one single time in that entire book? The LORD God.

Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

At least the author got this verse right.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

And this one as well. Yet neither of these verses in Ezekiel indicate there was a fear of the Jews once things are fulfilled.


On a different note, what the author neglected to address would be something such as the following.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Obviously this is meaning the house of Israel that God has been hiding His face from, that after the judgment on Gog, then, meaning this same house of Israel, shall know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The text indicates there will be no more leading them into captivity among the heathen ever again, once He has gathered them unto their own land this final time. Obviously then the fulfilling of this has to be meaning after the time of the following.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

If Ezekiel 39:28 has already been fulfilled, it contradicts the following in Luke 21:24----And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---thus making God out to be a liar in the process, since according to Ezekiel 39:28, God indicated He would no longer ever do that to them again once they have been gathered back into their own land, IOW, for forever more at that point would they remain in their land this time around.

DavidPT said:

In both passages the fear of the Lord falls upon the Gentiles and there is a conversion of Gentiles to the true faith (Ezek. 38:23; 39:7; Esther 8:17)

Kayser Commentary | The Battle of Gog and Magog Fulfilled in Esther

Let's focus on this one for now since all it takes is finding just one contradiction in order to prove this author was incorrect about these things.

Esther 8:17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Anybody else reading the above text does not see the text indicating there is the fear of LORD involved here. The text clearly states this instead---for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Maybe the above author thinks the Jews and the LORD are one and the same, but anyone with any good common sense would not think that. And speaking of the LORD God, guess who is not mentioned one single time in that entire book? The LORD God.

Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

At least the author got this verse right.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

And this one as well. Yet neither of these verses in Ezekiel indicate there was a fear of the Jews once things are fulfilled.


On a different note, what the author neglected to address would be something such as the following.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Obviously this is meaning the house of Israel that God has been hiding His face from, that after the judgment on Gog, then, meaning this same house of Israel, shall know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The text indicates there will be no more leading them into captivity among the heathen ever again, once He has gathered them unto their own land this final time. Obviously then the fulfilling of this has to be meaning after the time of the following.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

If Ezekiel 39:28 has already been fulfilled, it contradicts the following in Luke 21:24----And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---thus making God out to be a liar in the process, since according to Ezekiel 39:28, God indicated He would no longer ever do that to them again once they have been gathered back into their own land, IOW, for forever more at that point would they remain in their land this time around.

Click to expand...

Let's make it simple. How do horses, spears, wooden shields, cattle and such not limit the prophecy to a primitive time in technology?

Dave L said:

Let's make it simple. How do horses, spears, wooden shields, cattle and such not limit the prophecy to a primitive time in technology?

Click to expand...

Explain why you think God lied in Ezekiel 39:28, because if that has already been fulfilled according to you, Luke 21:24 indicates God lied in Ezekiel 39:28 then. And here you are concerned about the mentioning of ancient weaponry, where some of us have already tried to explain the logic behind that, when instead you should be more concerned about how your interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is making God out to be a liar.

DavidPT said:

Explain why you think God lied in Ezekiel 39:28, because if that has already been fulfilled according to you, Luke 21:24 indicates God lied in Ezekiel 39:28 then. And here you are concerned about the mentioning of ancient weaponry, where some of us have already tried to explain the logic behind that, when instead you should be more concerned about how your interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is making God out to be a liar.

Click to expand...

There were many nations in the the Babylonian empire and subsequent empires. And Luke speaks of the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Dave L said:

There were many nations in the the Babylonian empire and subsequent empires. And Luke speaks of the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Click to expand...

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In order for God not to be a liar, what is the correct chronology of the above events?

which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there----followed by----And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations


Or---


And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---followed by---which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there

Take note of what it says in Luke 21:24. It says this----until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That 'until' means once the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, they being led away captive into all nations is no longer the case. Which obviously equals---but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

So that means there still has be one final regathering unto their own land. Actually that regathering already began in the last century. The part of the house of Israel that fulfills Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit the Jews currently living in that region, the fact God would still be hiding His face from them. So even though they have already been regathered back into their own land, there are still a lot of events needing to be fulfilled first in Ezekiel 38 and 39. So it's not like God regathered them into their own land beginning in the last century, and that that is the end of the story. No, there is still a lot more that has to happen before it's the end of the story.

Douggg said:

That interpretation has been proven wrong countless times.

Click to expand...

I can count them, because the number is zero.


Daniel 9:27, and the lie:
.

DavidPT said:

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In order for God not to be a liar, what is the correct chronology of the above events?

which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there----followed by----And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations


Or---


And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---followed by---which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there

Take note of what it says in Luke 21:24. It says this----until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That 'until' means once the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, they being led away captive into all nations is no longer the case. Which obviously equals---but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

So that means there still has be one final regathering unto their own land. Actually that regathering already began in the last century. The part of the house of Israel that fulfills Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit the Jews currently living in that region, the fact God would still be hiding His face from them. So even though they have already been regathered back into their own land, there are still a lot of events needing to be fulfilled first in Ezekiel 38 and 39. So it's not like God regathered them into their own land beginning in the last century, and that that is the end of the story. No, there is still a lot more that has to happen before it's the end of the story.

Click to expand...

If you junk the Dispensationalism, where it belongs, and read for yourself. You might grasp the truth of the passage.

Dave L said:

If you junk the Dispensationalism, where it belongs, and read for yourself. You might grasp the truth of the passage.

Click to expand...

Unlike you I at least take the time to try and explain my reasoning of things. All you seem to be good at is one liners rejecting what someone has submitted, without actually providing the correct understanding of something instead, since it's obvious you don't think some of us are understanding some of these things correctly. BTW, it is interpretations like yours that are making God out to be liar. Your interpretation insists Ezekiel 39:28 has already been fulfilled, even though Luke 21:24 contradicts that, thus making God out to be liar in the process.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. It can't get any clearer than that. This clearly means no more being removed from this land ever again for forever, once this has been fulfilled.

DavidPT said:

Unlike you I at least take the time to try and explain my reasoning of things. All you seem to be good at is one liners rejecting what someone has submitted, without actually providing the correct understanding of something instead, since it's obvious you don't think some of us are understanding some of these things correctly. BTW, it is interpretations like yours that are making God out to be liar. Your interpretation insists Ezekiel 39:28 has already been fulfilled, even though Luke 21:24 contradicts that, thus making God out to be liar in the process.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. It can't get any clearer than that. This clearly means no more being removed from this land ever again for forever, once this has been fulfilled.

Click to expand...

Here's the problem. You need to define OT terms with NT definitions. A major change is in Christ and the Church being Israel. So the physical Jews today who hate Christ will not become Israel until they accept Jesus. Can you see how this makes your entire end time scenarios disappear into thin air.

DavidPT said:

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. It can't get any clearer than that. This clearly means no more being removed from this land ever again for forever, once this has been fulfilled.

Click to expand...

Since this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to "burn", and be "dissolved" in 2 Peter 3:7-13, the only eternal land is found below.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Anyone want to respond to post #120 concerning 70AD Jerusalem being in Revelation 18,

Click to expand...

Rev 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!
Rev 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."
(Did not happen during 70 AD.)
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
Rev 18:7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
Rev 18:8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
Rev 18:9 "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
Rev 18:11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:
Rev 18:12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;
Rev 18:13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
Rev 18:18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What is like this great city?'
Rev 18:19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'
Rev 18:20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!"
Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.
Rev 18:22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
Rev 18:23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
(Did not happen during 70 AD.)
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

.

BABerean2 said:

Since this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to "burn", and be "dissolved" in 2 Peter 3:7-13, the only eternal land is found below.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

Click to expand...

Do you agree Revelation 19 is also concerning the 2nd coming? If yes, can you point out anywhere in that chapter that the entire planet, and those living on it, are depicted as being burned alive with the earth? I wonder how the beast and false prophet manages to get cast into the LOF still alive, if they should have been burned up with the rest of the people and the planet? I also wonder why Jesus even bothers slaying anyone in the last verse of that chapter, which means they were alive before He slays them? Why didn't they simply get burned up when the entire planet went up in blazes?

DavidPT said:

Do you agree Revelation 19 is also concerning the 2nd coming? If yes, can you point out anywhere in that chapter that the entire planet, and those living on it, are depicted as being burned alive with the earth? I wonder how the beast and false prophet manages to get cast into the LOF still alive, if they should have been burned up with the rest of the people and the planet? I also wonder why Jesus even bothers slaying anyone in the last verse of that chapter, which means they were alive before He slays them? Why didn't they simply get burned up when the entire planet went up in blazes?

Click to expand...

Yes. Chapter 19 is one of the several passages which describe the Second Coming in the Book of Revelation.

When does the fire come?


Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.


Based on the passage below, this earth is not our home.

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.
.

LittleLambofJesus said:

How do you know. Were you there?
Let's ask Josephus, who was there...............

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Click to expand...

Why don't we ask somebody who actually read Holford's book...

.