Jesus is Israel. How so?

Jesus = Church = true spiritual Israel ?

Dave-W said:

I understand the difference between echad and yachad.

The Trinity is explained in this verse:

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

or in the original:
Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

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Dave L said:

You cannot understand the OT apart from the NT.

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Right. You also can't "explain" our Triune God in one verse.

Trinity — Center for Action and Contemplation

There is a lot of guessing herein! Israel means "a prince with God" and thus applies to esteemed ones before God ---see sound Bible commentaries. If one reads it in that manner it becomes understandable.

Dave-W said: ↑
I understand the difference between echad and yachad.

The Trinity is explained in this verse:

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

or in the original:
Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Click to expand...

Dave L said: ↑
You cannot understand the OT apart from the NT.

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said: ↑
Right. You also can't "explain" our Triune God in one verse.
Trinity — Center for Action and Contemplation

Click to expand...

Hello mkgal.....True that.......

Christian believers consist of a body, soul and spirit which is essentially a "trinity"?

Isa 10:18
And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body;
And they will be as when a sick man wastes away.

Mat 10:28
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in the gehenna.

1Th 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 18:13
“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
====================
Isa 66:
22“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me;
the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched,
and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Mar 9:44 [Isaiah 66:24]
where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Dave-W said:

Gentile believers are grafted into Israel (Rom 11) and are elsewhere called the "Commonwealth of Israel."

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

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We are all one in Christ. Amen!

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

mkgal1 said:

Right. You also can't "explain" our Triune God in one verse.

Click to expand...

The Trinity is beyond explanation.

If you try to drill down farther than "Three in One," you end up in one of the ancient heresies.

Dave L said:

Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)


“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)


“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)


“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)


“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

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And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Rev. 21:22

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Dave L said:

Jesus is Israel.

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Dave, I totally understand what you are getting at. Because double meanings exist in prophecy, it is easy to not understand.

What you are saying is that the name "Israel" applies to Messiah as well as to Jacob and his genetic offspring called the nation of Israel.

I had this realization in reading the book of Isaiah. In these verses, it can be read either way.


The natural reading of the verse is taken as meaning the sons of Jacob. But the wording of "the seed of Abraham my friend" hearkens unto Galatians.


While Strong's does not give us the Hebrew text completely, "seed" in the Hebrew text is zerah is singular, not the plural zerim.

Consequently, Paul makes this conclusion in Galatians.


Logically, then, the body of Christ is the Israel of God. Of course, Christian Zionists and Messianic Jews get upset because it means the church has replaced Israel. Gads, not replacement theology!

Well, the promises of God that are unconditional from God to national Israel, will not be replaced, but the conditional promises of the Mosaic covenant has been replaced. Get over it people.

Apart from Replacement theology, the difficulty in accepting Israel as another name for the Messiah comes from not really understanding the divinity and humanity of the Messiah. We say he was fully God and fully man with his divinity limited so he could walk as a man.

But understanding his humanity is helpful in understanding our justification. We are not justified by the choices of God, but by the choices of the man Jesus Christ. If the fullness of God dwelt in him bodily, one must assume that meant the trinity of Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. However, while the fullness of God dwelt in the man, it was the Word that became a man, not the Father nor the Spirit.

And as a man, Jesus had a created human spirit, soul, and body. Paul tells us that it was the man Christ Jesus who justified us.


In my opinion, when the sins of the world were placed on Jesus, and he cried out, My God why have you forsaken me? The fullness of God left Jesus, and as a man he became sin who knew no sin, justifying us.

In my opinion, the holiness of God is his immutable protection from sin. As long as God remained in Jesus the man, sin could not touch Jesus. God had to leave Jesus, so he could become sin.

Jesus as a man was not in his glory when he walked the Earth. I think after he ascended to heaven in Acts 1 is when he was glorified. I think being glorified meant that his humanity became inseparable from his divinity. A metamorphosis of physical with spiritual. When we are glorified, this, too, shall happen to us.

And this is the point that I think is confusing regarding the divinity and humanity of Jesus during his incarnation. I think most people assume that his physical being was already merged with his divine being.

As will be expected, I have no doubt that I will be called a heretic for what I just wrote. That seems to be the default answer for all who see any variation on orthodoxy as being wrong in this forum. Well, I am not trying to create a cult. Just sharing my opinion.

Dave L said:

Israel is spiritual only made up of Christ and believers.

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Spiritual Israel, yes. And the Israel of the future, yes. But there is still national Israel, even if they are not genetic descendants of Israel and merely Khazar converts, they are naturally called Israel. To insist there is no other use of the word Israel is merely going to create confusion and contention.

Dave L said:

Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)


“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)


“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)


“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)


“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

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Hi Dave. The covenant Seed, which is Christ, went through Isaac. In Isaac shall thy Seed be called. Of course, old Jews like me don't even like to think about Abraham's seed also going to Ishmael, who is the father of the Arab nations.

Dave-W said:

If it did, then our Lord was lying when He said "The Father and I are one." John 10:30

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Jesus said also:

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

Disciples of Jesus are also one with God. Being one with God doesn’t mean person is God, it means person has same will.

Spiritual Israel is the Church, which is God's chosen people.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Christ is Israel, because he is the head of his church. The church is his body.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The thing is, anything that applies to Christ, also applies to God's elect.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

This is an absolutely gigantic subject, and a variable rabbit hole.

Dave L said:

Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)


“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)


“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)


“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)


“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

Click to expand...

Under the New Covenant Israel is the Body of Christ. There are other versions like geopolitical Israel.

Israel is Israel, the Church is the Church.

Israel typified the Church, and at one point housed the Church in times of old.

AlexDTX said:

But there is still national Israel, even if they are not genetic descendants of Israel and merely Khazar converts, they are naturally called Israel.

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Why do you keep repeating a myth? This has been disproven...yes there were converts from Khazaria at one time period but they are not the whole Nation. There are Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews in addition to Ashkenazim.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Why do you keep repeating a myth? This has been disproven...yes there were converts from Khazaria at one time period but they are not the whole Nation. There are Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews in addition to Ashkenazim.

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First of all, I said, "Even if..." That is an honest intellectual statement. That is not saying "this is so". It is saying, "If it is true".

Second, Ashkinazi Jew Arthur Koestler is the promoter of the teaching in his book, The 13th Tribe". Why would an Ashkinazi Jew say Ashkenazi Jews are not genetic Israel. Is he anti-semitic like the Left calls conservative Jewish radio host, Dennis Prager? What does Koestler have to gain for writing and promoting such information?

Why are you off topic? The OP is about the Messiah being called Israel, and (OP implication) the Church being spiritual Israel. I don't post often on CF anymore because I am so tired of responses like yours that look for their pet peeves to argue instead of contributing to the topic of the thread.