What did the Early Church Fathers write about the return of Christ during 70 AD?

Biblewriter said:

But using the chronology of the Masoretic text, which we use, would have made it in the year 2000.

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Biblewriter said:

Of course, nothing in the line of Christ's return happened at that time. So we know one of two things is true. Either the 6000 year prediction is wrong (of which I am certain is the real answer) or neither or the two ancient texts correctly states the actual chronology, as originally recorded by the holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

I'm assuming what you are saying about the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is something scholars (or rabbis) picked up over the course of the centuries? Did this idea first appear in the Talmud? Where in the text are they making this reference from? Do you have any information on that?

How old is earth... really?

Now, I will say outright; there is a misunderstanding / misreading of Scripture in regards to the age of the earth. (Usher's chronology) The whole span of human history is not 6000 years; but there is 6000 years from Noah's flood until 1988. Is that significant? Possibly!

If you were to line up ages of the patriarchs from the Biblical record end on end; you'd get an earth that today is a little more than 13000 years old. 1988 was the 13000 year. The only time that the text indicates that one should not "line up" the ages is when it says "(patriarch X begot patriarch Y and called his name....". When you see the phrase "called his name" this indicates by the text that this is a father son relationship. So we know Shem, Ham and Japheth were Noah's literal sons.

Now when I went digging through the Bible; I came up with some interesting things.

1000 year reign:

The term "thousand years" in Revelation is in the plural. It appears to me that it is a "duel" "one thousand". Now does that mean "one thousand" or does it mean "two thousand"? It is literally "duel one thousand".

Now I don't know why that is. I did some digging of numbers as to how they are presented / written in the NT Greek and to have a plural of the #1 is not an uncommon usage; but I don't know why (or if in manuscripts outside of Scripture) the Greek is commonly written that way in regards to "#1"? It is (sort of) yet not written that way in regards to other numbers. (5000 of "X" is "five" and "thousands".) That makes more contextual sense than "one" and "thousands" (Is there just no singular form of "thousand" in Greek? I have no idea.)

The other possibility is "thousand years" is "singular of thousands of" years. (One thousand, two thousand, four thousand etc.)

So, here is another possible nuance of this? Jesus is the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" which means "in eternity" (outside of time) He has always reigned. So regardless of how many years the universe has existed; Christ has always "reigned" in the eternal time table. (Which translates to "thousands of years" in earthy time.)

Yet if the "plural of thousand" stands literal in "thousand year reign"; that's 2000 years. 2000 years post resurrection brings us to 2033 AD. Does that mean anything? I have no clue!

3.5 days:

Now Moses is 1500 years before Christ. 3 & 1/2 days (two witnesses) if "a day is as a thousand years and 1000 years is as a day" that would be 3500 years. There's 3500 years between Moses (and the commencement of "official" writing of Scripture) and 2033 AD. Again, does that mean something? I don't know.

"42 months" is also "3.5 years". The "beast" in Revelation 13 is allowed to continue 42 months. If that is 3500 years; that would mean that the commencement of the "beast system" correlated with the penning of Scripture. This does make sense because where the truth is declared; falsehood "grows up" along side of it. "Where the carcass is buzzards gather." We've seen that for 3500 years. Look at all the false religion that's grown up around both Biblical Judaism and Biblical Christianity.

Dispensationalism:

And now; (speaking of beast and false religion). What would become the prevailing eschatological view of dispensationalism; springs out of Zionism, which seeks to connect current Israel to prophecy concerning Abraham. Dispensationalism started in the mid 1800's but didn't really become predominant until after WWII.

Dispensationalism relies solely on futuristic interpretations; which as correctly pointed out by many in this thread, futurism was not the eschatological position of the church for some 1900 years.

Other interesting factoids that I have no idea if they are relevant or not:

120 years Noah built the ark.
120 years the Herodian dynasty ruled over the Judean province in the 1st century.
120 years commences the Zionist political push to create Israel starting with Hertzel and the British government (plus Rothschild) in 1913. (The Balfour declaration.)

45 years from 1988 to 2033 AD
46 years of the "building of the temple" by 33 AD. The crucifixion occurred in the 46th year of this construction project.

The "temple institute" was founded in 1988: (Which seeks to build another temple - which would actually be a 4th temple, if that ever happens. I personally don't think it will. I guess we'll see what happens politically?)

This commenced as part of the first Intrafada which was in 1987; where the Palestinians took over the "temple mount" because they want Jerusalem to be the capital of their Palestinian state. 1988 was also the year the UN recognized the Palestinians as a "state". The UN has always recognized the Palestinians as having the right to create their own state. That was actually part of the UN "mandate" concerning the creation of Israel back in 1948. The mandate actually says: "If we create an Israeli state; we also are mandated to create a Palestinian state." It is written that way because the UN does not have the authority to create nations.

The commencement of the 46th year "project" to "build the temple" would be in 2033. (46 years constructing Herod's temple - New Testament.) If they ever construct another temple; that would actually be the 4th temple; because Herod totally tore down the temple from Ezra's time.

Herod's temple actually "reopened for business" the first Passover (9 or 8 BC depending on which calendar one is using - the "sacred" or "secular". They run 6 months apart.) that the angel came to John the Baptist's father. The angel coming to John's father is the first communication God sends with "the Jews" since the completion of the penning of the OT.

Prophecies in Daniel:

John is born end of 8 BC (probably around the time of passover).
Jesus is born beginning of 7 BC (probably during the feast of tabernacles.)

Jesus dies on Passover of 33 AD, making Him months shy of turning 40.

Herod the Great is the "king who understands dark sayings" in Daniel.
There are 1290 days between the angel appearing to John's father and Herod trying to kill Jesus.
There are 2300 days between the angel appearing to John's father and Jesus retuning from Egypt.

70 weeks:

There are 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and pentecost.
63rd week commences "the great tribulation".
The "great tribulation" commenced the Friday before the crucifixion.
It's "cut short" on the Passover when the angel of death comes to Jesus and consigns his human soul to hades. Jesus doesn't die though because He also has a Divine nature. His death was actually "caused" by the renting of the Divine nature from the human nature. (Symbolized by the veil in the temple being torn.)

"coming in the clouds of glory" is Jesus's ascension to heaven upon death. @mkgal1 confirms this with the quote from the old testament of "coming unto the Father".

The "signs" the wicked generation witnesses. (Whom they are all alive to witness!) The darkening of the sun. The earthquakes. The tombs rent.

What's happening in the spiritual realm? Christ has just liberated all the dead who were atoned for on the OT side of the cross from hades. Revelation 5 pics this up as "those out of great tribulation" standing in the throne room of God to watch the lamb open the seals.

And here the liberation of these souls I believe is what's called "the battle of Armageddon". It's an event taking place in the spiritual realm concerning the atoned dead being liberated from hades. The manifestations of this on earth are what the wicked generation witnesses.

The end of Ephesians 1 declares that "all power and authority to reign" is given to Christ upon the resurrection. So we know the "millennial reign" begins with the resurrection. The proof of that reign (as it applies to sinners' redemption) in earthy time is Pentecost. Pentecost is called "the consummation" in Daniel. And the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the "union" of Christ to His bride.

Now Jesus did speak of the destruction of Jerusalem; so yes, what happened in 70 AD was a fulfillment of prophecy. That was not Jesus returning to heaven upon death, the ascension before pentecost or the destruction of the cosmos on Judgement Day at the end of time. Those are all separate events unto their own prophecy which are not linked to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

If you look really carefully at the sequence of Matthew 24 you will see this. First Jesus talks about the tribulation and the ascension to the Father upon death. Then He talks about the destruction of Jerusalem. Then He talks about the destruction of the cosmos. And of that (at that time) He says: "Only the Father knows."

Now go to the book of Acts just before Jesus ascends to heaven the final time. The disciples ask when the restoration of the kingdom is (when is the end of time). Jesus answers: "It's not for you (those standing in front of me) to know times or seasons the Father put in His own authority." This does not indicate though, that at that particular point in history, Jesus didn't now know when the end of time was. All power and authority given to Him would have also included when the final resurrection would be.

Now does the Holy Ghost reveal unto the generation who will be alive at the time of the final resurrection "what's coming down the pike"? The book of Revelation seems to indicate that this is the case.

Revelation 10:
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

How do we "His servants" today receive revelation (of the prophets)?
Through the Scripture!

Now if all these are coincidences - they are very interesting ones.

Berean Tim said:

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascendedto My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascendingto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

Click to expand...

I looked this up in the Greek. "not yet ascended" is in the perfect tense; where as "am ascending" is in the present indicative active. Which at the point that Jesus is standing there He is "ascending". Which is interesting.

I think the first part means He had't sat down at the right hand of the Father yet; although He now possessed all authority and power. And the second part means that He presently ascended as the King, although presently still in earth.

I watched the YouTube clip of the flipped full Preterist. (And I don't remember if you are the one who posted it.) He talks about Jesus resurrected body being "glorified". Yet, I'm not convinced that the body that came out of the grave was "yet glorified" as related to Christ's standing in heaven.

Those that saw Jesus resurrected saw a material human being whom they could touch. Post final ascension Paul saw a vision.

God in His glory can not occupy the same space with corrupted creation without destroying it. This is why He covered Moses with His hand.

So yes obviously Jesus was healed up upon resurrection; and their lacking in faith / not having the benefit of the indwelling Spirit, prevented them from fully recognizing Christ. Yet He was still "earthy" material form and not "glorified". I don't believe that "glorification" (as applies to the eternal realm) happened until the final ascension; simply because He could not occupy a space on earth in that form.

And God entering the created realm in His glorified state is what I believe causes the destruction of the current cosmos at the end of time.

The Righterzpen said:

I'm assuming what you are saying about the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is something scholars (or rabbis) picked up over the course of the centuries? Did this idea first appear in the Talmud? Where in the text are they making this reference from? Do you have any information on that?

How old is earth... really?

Now, I will say outright; there is a misunderstanding / misreading of Scripture in regards to the age of the earth. (Usher's chronology) The whole span of human history is not 6000 years; but there is 6000 years from Noah's flood until 1988. Is that significant? Possibly!

If you were to line up ages of the patriarchs from the Biblical record end on end; you'd get an earth that today is a little more than 13000 years old. 1988 was the 13000 year. The only time that the text indicates that one should not "line up" the ages is when it says "(patriarch X begot patriarch Y and called his name....". When you see the phrase "called his name" this indicates by the text that this is a father son relationship. So we know Shem, Ham and Japheth were Noah's literal sons.

Now when I went digging through the Bible; I came up with some interesting things.

1000 year reign:

The term "thousand years" in Revelation is in the plural. It appears to me that it is a "duel" "one thousand". Now does that mean "one thousand" or does it mean "two thousand"? It is literally "duel one thousand".

Now I don't know why that is. I did some digging of numbers as to how they are presented / written in the NT Greek and to have a plural of the #1 is not an uncommon usage; but I don't know why (or if in manuscripts outside of Scripture) the Greek is commonly written that way in regards to "#1"? It is (sort of) yet not written that way in regards to other numbers. (5000 of "X" is "five" and "thousands".) That makes more contextual sense than "one" and "thousands" (Is there just no singular form of "thousand" in Greek? I have no idea.)

The other possibility is "thousand years" is "singular of thousands of" years. (One thousand, two thousand, four thousand etc.)

So, here is another possible nuance of this? Jesus is the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" which means "in eternity" (outside of time) He has always reigned. So regardless of how many years the universe has existed; Christ has always "reigned" in the eternal time table. (Which translates to "thousands of years" in earthy time.)

Yet if the "plural of thousand" stands literal in "thousand year reign"; that's 2000 years. 2000 years post resurrection brings us to 2033 AD. Does that mean anything? I have no clue!

3.5 days:

Now Moses is 1500 years before Christ. 3 & 1/2 days (two witnesses) if "a day is as a thousand years and 1000 years is as a day" that would be 3500 years. There's 3500 years between Moses (and the commencement of "official" writing of Scripture) and 2033 AD. Again, does that mean something? I don't know.

"42 months" is also "3.5 years". The "beast" in Revelation 13 is allowed to continue 42 months. If that is 3500 years; that would mean that the commencement of the "beast system" correlated with the penning of Scripture. This does make sense because where the truth is declared; falsehood "grows up" along side of it. "Where the carcass is buzzards gather." We've seen that for 3500 years. Look at all the false religion that's grown up around both Biblical Judaism and Biblical Christianity.

Dispensationalism:

And now; (speaking of beast and false religion). What would become the prevailing eschatological view of dispensationalism; springs out of Zionism, which seeks to connect current Israel to prophecy concerning Abraham. Dispensationalism started in the mid 1800's but didn't really become predominant until after WWII.

Dispensationalism relies solely on futuristic interpretations; which as correctly pointed out by many in this thread, futurism was not the eschatological position of the church for some 1900 years.

Other interesting factoids that I have no idea if they are relevant or not:

120 years Noah built the ark.
120 years the Herodian dynasty ruled over the Judean province in the 1st century.
120 years commences the Zionist political push to create Israel starting with Hertzel and the British government (plus Rothschild) in 1913. (The Balfour declaration.)

45 years from 1988 to 2033 AD
46 years of the "building of the temple" by 33 AD. The crucifixion occurred in the 46th year of this construction project.

The "temple institute" was founded in 1988: (Which seeks to build another temple - which would actually be a 4th temple, if that ever happens. I personally don't think it will. I guess we'll see what happens politically?)

This commenced as part of the first Intrafada which was in 1987; where the Palestinians took over the "temple mount" because they want Jerusalem to be the capital of their Palestinian state. 1988 was also the year the UN recognized the Palestinians as a "state". The UN has always recognized the Palestinians as having the right to create their own state. That was actually part of the UN "mandate" concerning the creation of Israel back in 1948. The mandate actually says: "If we create an Israeli state; we also are mandated to create a Palestinian state." It is written that way because the UN does not have the authority to create nations.

The commencement of the 46th year "project" to "build the temple" would be in 2033. (46 years constructing Herod's temple - New Testament.) If they ever construct another temple; that would actually be the 4th temple; because Herod totally tore down the temple from Ezra's time.

Herod's temple actually "reopened for business" the first Passover (9 or 8 BC depending on which calendar one is using - the "sacred" or "secular". They run 6 months apart.) that the angel came to John the Baptist's father. The angel coming to John's father is the first communication God sends with "the Jews" since the completion of the penning of the OT.

Prophecies in Daniel:

John is born end of 8 BC (probably around the time of passover).
Jesus is born beginning of 7 BC (probably during the feast of tabernacles.)

Jesus dies on Passover of 33 AD, making Him months shy of turning 40.

Herod the Great is the "king who understands dark sayings" in Daniel.
There are 1290 days between the angel appearing to John's father and Herod trying to kill Jesus.
There are 2300 days between the angel appearing to John's father and Jesus retuning from Egypt.

70 weeks:

There are 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and pentecost.
63rd week commences "the great tribulation".
The "great tribulation" commenced the Friday before the crucifixion.
It's "cut short" on the Passover when the angel of death comes to Jesus and consigns his human soul to hades. Jesus doesn't die though because He also has a Divine nature. His death was actually "caused" by the renting of the Divine nature from the human nature. (Symbolized by the veil in the temple being torn.)

"coming in the clouds of glory" is Jesus's ascension to heaven upon death. @mkgal1 confirms this with the quote from the old testament of "coming unto the Father".

The "signs" the wicked generation witnesses. (Whom they are all alive to witness!) The darkening of the sun. The earthquakes. The tombs rent.

What's happening in the spiritual realm? Christ has just liberated all the dead who were atoned for on the OT side of the cross from hades. Revelation 5 pics this up as "those out of great tribulation" standing in the throne room of God to watch the lamb open the seals.

And here the liberation of these souls I believe is what's called "the battle of Armageddon". It's an event taking place in the spiritual realm concerning the atoned dead being liberated from hades. The manifestations of this on earth are what the wicked generation witnesses.

The end of Ephesians 1 declares that "all power and authority to reign" is given to Christ upon the resurrection. So we know the "millennial reign" begins with the resurrection. The proof of that reign (as it applies to sinners' redemption) in earthy time is Pentecost. Pentecost is called "the consummation" in Daniel. And the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the "union" of Christ to His bride.

Now Jesus did speak of the destruction of Jerusalem; so yes, what happened in 70 AD was a fulfillment of prophecy. That was not Jesus returning to heaven upon death, the ascension before pentecost or the destruction of the cosmos on Judgement Day at the end of time. Those are all separate events unto their own prophecy which are not linked to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

If you look really carefully at the sequence of Matthew 24 you will see this. First Jesus talks about the tribulation and the ascension to the Father upon death. Then He talks about the destruction of Jerusalem. Then He talks about the destruction of the cosmos. And of that (at that time) He says: "Only the Father knows."

Now go to the book of Acts just before Jesus ascends to heaven the final time. The disciples ask when the restoration of the kingdom is (when is the end of time). Jesus answers: "It's not for you (those standing in front of me) to know times or seasons the Father put in His own authority." This does not indicate though, that at that particular point in history, Jesus didn't now know when the end of time was. All power and authority given to Him would have also included when the final resurrection would be.

Now does the Holy Ghost reveal unto the generation who will be alive at the time of the final resurrection "what's coming down the pike"? The book of Revelation seems to indicate that this is the case.

Revelation 10:
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

How do we "His servants" today receive revelation (of the prophets)?
Through the Scripture!

Now if all these are coincidences - they are very interesting ones.



I looked this up in the Greek. "not yet ascended" is in the perfect tense; where as "am ascending" is in the present indicative active. Which at the point that Jesus is standing there He is "ascending". Which is interesting.

I think the first part means He had't sat down at the right hand of the Father yet; although He now possessed all authority and power. And the second part means that He presently ascended as the King, although presently still in earth.

I watched the YouTube clip of the flipped full Preterist. (And I don't remember if you are the one who posted it.) He talks about Jesus resurrected body being "glorified". Yet, I'm not convinced that the body that came out of the grave was "yet glorified" as related to Christ's standing in heaven.

Those that saw Jesus resurrected saw a material human being whom they could touch. Post final ascension Paul saw a vision.

God in His glory can not occupy the same space with corrupted creation without destroying it. This is why He covered Moses with His hand.

So yes obviously Jesus was healed up upon resurrection; and their lacking in faith / not having the benefit of the indwelling Spirit, prevented them from fully recognizing Christ. Yet He was still "earthy" material form and not "glorified". I don't believe that "glorification" (as applies to the eternal realm) happened until the final ascension; simply because He could not occupy a space on earth in that form.

And God entering the created realm in His glorified state is what I believe causes the destruction of the current cosmos at the end of time.

Click to expand...

I didn't post a clip of a "flipped full perterist" I suggested Robert Morris's youtube Dominion for a fuller understanding

Berean Tim said:

I didn't post a clip of a "flipped full perterist" I suggested Robert Morris's youtube Dominion for a fuller understanding

Click to expand...

OK, thanks. I don't remember who posted the link I watched.

The Righterzpen said:

OK, thanks. I don't remember who posted the link I watched.

Click to expand...

I believe it was BABerean that posted that one (in post #24).

mkgal1 said:

I'm not sure how you reconcile your belief of a future fulfillment with this passage:

Matthew 10:23 ~ "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

But He was already there, right in front of them. That doesn't make sense......

Click to expand...

When you move the timeline back like that (to His crucifixion - in order to support your thesis) you're seeming to dismiss the importance of events that came AFTER His crucifixion - like His resurrection (especially), the time spent with His followers after His resurrection, His ascension, and Pentecost.

The grammar that I'm used to, a person wouldn't say "you're not going to get that done before I come" when the person saying that is right there and hasn't "left" yet. While it's true (because the person is already there - and the task hadn't been accomplished) it's just not how a person intending to not confuse their audience would communicate something like that. Jesus spoke in parables at times - for sure - but that doesn't mean He typically spoke in deliberately confusing ways.

BABerean2 said:

Mat_18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.


Luk_9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


Luk_19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

.

Click to expand...

what happened between Matthew 10:23 and Matthew 18:11 which corresponds to the son of man arriving?

Biblewriter said:

So I would have to reject the claim that the early church rejected the clear, plain, teaching of Irenaeus and Hippolytus that the seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Click to expand...

Not in our future, but in their future, 500 AD.

Their math was a bit off.

• BABerean2 said:

  When did He save the lost?

  Click to expand...

all the martyrs from the first century to the Millennium were saved, being raised in the First Resurrection?





Jude 1:5 is important for modern Christians, who were freed from spiritual Egypt = 1st century apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD (Revelation 11:8)

• physical Exodus from Egypt in 13th century BC followed by backsliding and physical destruction of those physically freed foreshadowed...
• spiritual exodus from spiritual Egypt in 70 AD followed by spiritual destruction of backsliders once spiritually freed at 2C / FJ (Matthew 7:23 = Luke 13:27 = 2 Thessalonians 2:10) ?

Christian History and its Preterist Presuppositions

Not One Stone Left Upon Another : The catastrophic fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 forever changed the face of Judaism—and the fate of Christians

"Jesus predicted it 37 years before it happened. Herod Agrippa II and his sister Bernice, who heard Paul's testimony at Caesarea (Acts 26), tried hard to prevent it, as did the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (our main source of first-century information). But the fall of Jerusalem and the burning of the Temple in A.D. 70 happened nevertheless, and it was a catastrophe with almost unparalleled consequences for Jews, Christians, and, indeed, all of subsequent history."

EARLY CHURCH (EC) - A) Views espoused by all Christian sources during the first thousand years of church history, during which the only systematizing being done was in Catholic and Orthodox circles. B) This class includes all the earliest church fathers, historians and pseudepigraphic writers, dating back to the writings of the New Testament. C) Sources could be considered "Historicist" or "Futurist" but very rarely "Preterist" in any developed way (Eusebius would be the most likely to be considered Preterist) (Broadest in Years, Broadest in Doctrine - First Thousand Years of Church History - Pret-related comments color-coded with "Historical Preterism" due to similarities)


CHRISTIAN HISTORY AND ITS PRETERIST ASSUMPTION

• Dispensational premillennialist Tommy Ice: "I would never say that there is no one in the early church who taught preterism. . . . Don't be foolish enough to say that nothing is out there in church history, because you never know. . . . There is early preterism in people like Eusebius. In fact, his work The Proof of the Gospel is full of preterism in relationship to the Olivet Discourse." ("Update on Pre-Darby Rapture Statements and Other Issues": audio tape December 1995).
  

Early Christian Preterism
(CHRISTIAN WRITINGS FROM AD40 TO 1000)

JEWISH/CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL STUDIES (1500BC-AD70) | EARLY CHRISTIAN PRETERISM (AD40-1000) | FREE ONLINE BOOKS (AD1000-2014)

Christian History and its Preterist Presuppositions

EARLY CHURCH FATHERS (150-500)

• 50: Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew
  
  
• 150: Pseudo Clement: Recognitions
  
  
• 150: Melito - Homily of the Pascha "Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ, who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the heights of heaven." "The battle between Christians and Jews over possession of the name "Israel" goes back to the earliest days of Christianity.. the past-tense verbs found in (Melito's) Peri Pascha 99 may indicate that the author is referring to the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE."
  
  
• 165: Hegesippus
  
  
• 170: The Muratorian Fragment
  
  
• 175: Irenaeus - Against Heresies "the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord's advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight."
  
  
• 185: Clement of Alexandria - The Stromata
  
  
• 198: Tertullian - An Answer to the Jews "among us, who have been called out of the nations, -'and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight.' Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices, - the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates?"
  
  
• 200: Tertullian - Against Marcion
  
  
• 230: Origen - The Principles
  
  
• 235: Hippolytus
  
  
• 248: Cyprian - Testimonies Against the Jews
  
  
• 250: Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."
  
  
• St. Gregory Thaumaturgus (AD 213-270) "He has blessed every age, both men and women, both young men and youths, and old men. He has made strength with His arm, on our behalf, against death and against the devil, having torn the handwriting of our sins. He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts; yea, He has scattered the devil himself, and all the demons that serve under him. For he was overweeningly haughty in his heart, seeing that he dared to say, I will set my throne above the clouds, and I will be like the Most High. And now, how He scattered him the prophet has indicated in what follows, where he says, Yet now you shall be brought down to hell, and all your hosts with you. For He has overthrown everywhere his altars and the worship of vain gods, and He has prepared for Himself a peculiar people out of the heathen nations. He has put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. In these terms is intimated in brief the extrusion of the Jews and the admission of the Gentiles. For the elders of the Jews and the scribes in the law, and those who were richly privileged with other prerogatives, because they used their riches ill and their power lawlessly, were cast down by Him from every seat, whether of prophecy or of priesthood, whether of legislature or of doctrine, and were stripped of all their ancestral wealth, and of their sacrifices and multitudinous festivals, and of all the honourable privileges of the kingdom. Spoiled of all these boons, as naked fugitives they were cast out into captivity. And in their stead the humble were exalted, namely, the Gentile peoples who hungered after righteousness. For, discovering their own lowliness, and the hunger that pressed upon them for the knowledge of God, they pleaded for the divine word, though it were but for crumbs of the same, like the woman of Canaan; and for this reason they were filled with the riches of the divine mysteries. For the Christ who was born of the Virgin, and who is our God, has given over the whole inheritance of divine blessings to the Gentiles. He has helped His servant Israel. Not any Israel in general, indeed, but His servant, who in very deed maintains the true nobility of Israel. And on this account also did the mother of God call Him servant (Son) and heir. For when He had found the same labouring painfully in the letter and the law, He called him by grace. It is such an Israel, therefore, that He called and has helped in remembrance of His mercy. As He spoke to our fathers, I to Abraham and to his seed for ever. In these few words is comprehended the whole mystery of the economy. For, with the purpose of saving the race of men, and fulfilling the covenant that was made with our fathers, Christ has once bowed the heavens and come down. And thus He shows Himself to us as we are capable of receiving Him, in order that we might have power to see Him, and handle Him, and hear Him when the speaks. And on this account did God the Word deem it meet to take to Himself the flesh and the perfect humanity by a woman, the holy Virgin; and He was born a man, in order that He might discharge our debt, and fulfil even in Himself the ordinances of the covenant made with Abraham, in its rite of circumcision, and all the other legal appointments connected with it. (St. Gregory Thaumaturgus; The Second Homily: On the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary)

jgr said:

Not in our future, but in their future, 500 AD.

Their math was a bit off.

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They most certainly did not predict that the end would come n 500 A.D. They predicted that it would come "in earth's six thousandth year." WE ASSUME they were using the chronology of the Septuagint. And THAT makes their prediction work out to around 500 A.D. But it they were actually using the chronology of the Masoretic text, it works out to 2000 A.D.

The Righterzpen said:

I'm assuming what you are saying about the Septuagint and the Masoretic text is something scholars (or rabbis) picked up over the course of the centuries? Did this idea first appear in the Talmud? Where in the text are they making this reference from? Do you have any information on that?

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These numbers came from modern scholars examining the chronologies, as explicitly stated in these two ancient documents. As the ancients spoke of the age of the earth, it seems obvious that they did the same.

The Righterzpen said:

How old is earth... really?

Now, I will say outright; there is a misunderstanding / misreading of Scripture in regards to the age of the earth. (Usher's chronology) The whole span of human history is not 6000 years; but there is 6000 years from Noah's flood until 1988. Is that significant? Possibly!

If you were to line up ages of the patriarchs from the Biblical record end on end; you'd get an earth that today is a little more than 13000 years old. 1988 was the 13000 year. The only time that the text indicates that one should not "line up" the ages is when it says "(patriarch X begot patriarch Y and called his name....". When you see the phrase "called his name" this indicates by the text that this is a father son relationship. So we know Shem, Ham and Japheth were Noah's literal sons.

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=Almost everything you have said about Biblical chronology is manifestly incorrect. I have personally checked Usher's chronology, and it is unquestionably correct. You have made a serious error in adding up the "ages of the patriarchs from the Biblical record end on end." Their ages are immaterial. what counts is their ages at the time at which their children were born. This is clearly stated, as well as how long they lived.

You also appear to be unaware of the fact that some of the judges ruled in different parts of Israel at the same times. So adding up the times during which the judges ruled does not work. But the overall times are clearly stated in other places in the Old Testament.

The Righterzpen said:

Dispensationalism:

And now; (speaking of beast and false religion). What would become the prevailing eschatological view of dispensationalism; springs out of Zionism, which seeks to connect current Israel to prophecy concerning Abraham. Dispensationalism started in the mid 1800's but didn't really become predominant until after WWII.

Dispensationalism relies solely on futuristic interpretations; which as correctly pointed out by many in this thread, futurism was not the eschatological position of the church for some 1900 years.

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This is totally incorrect. Futurism was so prevalent in the early church that in the fifth century Jerome called it "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church."

And the essence of dispenstionalism was clearly taught in both the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to this day and the very oldest Christian commentary in scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) that hgas survived to the present day. These doctrines continued to be widely taugh well into the fifth century, and in a few cases clear trough the Medieval period. And they were revived only a few decades after the publication of the King James Translation of the Bible made Bibles, for the first time in history, widely available at a price common people could afford to pay.

Biblewriter said:

They most certainly did not predict that the end would come n 500 A.D. They predicted that it would come "in earth's six thousandth year." WE ASSUME they were using the chronology of the Septuagint. And THAT makes their prediction work out to around 500 A.D. But it they were actually using the chronology of the Masoretic text, it works out to 2000 A.D.

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The Septuagint was the only existing text when Hippolytus and Irenaeus wrote.

In either case, the two dates were uneventful.

Erik Nelson said:

Matthew 18:11

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An interesting side note: I just noticed that some Bible translations leave this verse out (it's not in the NIV; the CEB; or the NLT).

Biblewriter said:

These numbers came from modern scholars examining the chronologies, as explicitly stated in these two ancient documents.

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Which two ancient documents?
Some sites make reference to the Masoretic text; but don't say where.
The Septuagint was penned after the Old Testament canon was complete and the Talmud surfaced about 400 AD.

The Septuagint and the Talmud are not Scripture. So the answer I'm really looking for is where did they get these numbers from out of the Old Testament? (Which would have been the Masoretic text.)

Biblewriter said:

I have personally checked Usher's chronology, and it is unquestionably correct.

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Except Ussher originally stuck with the rabbinic tradition / Septuagint that stated Israel was in Egypt 215 years. The Scripture clearly stated they were there 430 years. Most current chronologies have "updated" this error to the 430 years.

Talk:Biblical chronology dispute - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

Also, compare genealogies between New Testament and Old Testament.

We have an extra "Canian" between Salah and Arphaxad in the Luke chronology. That's not there in Genesis. "Ussher's chronology" doesn't account for that.

https://creation.com/images/pdfs/other/timeline_of_the_bible.pdf

Comparison of genealogies between Old and New Testament

Genesis 5:
And Adam begat a son and called his name Seth:
And Seth begat Enos:
And Enos begat Cainan:
And Cainan begat Mahalaleel:
And Mahalaleel begat Jared:
And Jared begat Enoch.
And Enoch begat Methuselah.
And Methuselah Lamech.
And Lamech begat a son: And he called his name Noah,
And Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Genesis 11:
10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
And Arphaxad begat Salah:
And Salah begat Eber:
And Eber begat Peleg:
And Peleg begat Reu:
And Reu begat Serug:
And Serug begat Nahor:
And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

Luke 3:
which was the son of Abraham,
which was the son of Thara,
which was the son of Nachor,
Which was the son of Saruch,
which was the son of Ragau,
which was the son of Phalec,
which was the son of Heber,
which was the son of Sala,
Which was the son of Cainan, (Verse 36)
which was the son of Arphaxad,
which was the son of Sem,
which was the son of Noe,
which was the son of Lamech,
Which was the son of Mathusala,
which was the son of Enoch,
which was the son of Jared,
which was the son of Maleleel,
which was the son of Cainan,
Which was the son of Enos,
which was the son of Seth,
which was the son of Adam,

Biblewriter said:

You also appear to be unaware of the fact that some of the judges ruled in different parts of Israel at the same times.

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Figuring out the era of Judges is a whole other ball of wax; but I didn't include any of that in what I said about patriarchs' genealogies.

Biblewriter said:

This is totally incorrect. Futurism was so prevalent in the early church that in the fifth century Jerome called it "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church."

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Multiple people on this thread have already refuted this claim.

Biblewriter said:

And the essence of dispenstionalism was clearly taught in both the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to this day and the very oldest Christian commentary in scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) that hgas survived to the present day. These doctrines continued to be widely taugh well into the fifth century, and in a few cases clear trough the Medieval period. And they were revived only a few decades after the publication of the King James Translation of the Bible made Bibles, for the first time in history, widely available at a price common people could afford to pay.

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Cite sources: Jerome was some 400 years after the crucifixion.

jgr said:

The Septuagint was the only existing text when Hippolytus and Irenaeus wrote.

In either case, the two dates were uneventful.

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We know the Masoretic text existed because the Dead Sea Scrolls date at least to the 1st century and they do contain the entire Masoretic text. (They did find the book of Ester in like the past couple of years.)

So Hippolytus and Irenaeus most certainly could have used it. Now whether or not they had sufficient access to it is another question. But the Hebrew Old Testament certainly existed in their day.

jgr said:

The Septuagint was the only existing text when Hippolytus and Irenaeus wrote.

In either case, the two dates were uneventful.

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I never said they were right about the six thousand years.