LDS Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Wh

Ironhold said:

With baptism, Jesus' baptism was the model. Full-body immersion in water. Period. Nothing has come down to contradict this.

With sacrament, Doctrine & Covenants has God telling Joseph that deviations from form are allowed so long as the spirit and intent are correct.

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mmksparbud said:

Here I must interject! Jesus is the example and He designated the juice of the vine. Period.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
You can't stand dogmatic about immersion and be flippant about the cup---it represented His blood, it was the fruit of the vine. As such, it also can not be alcoholic as the blood of Jesus is pure and no yeast was allowed during Passover.

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Peter1000 said:

The only way you can change the form of an ordinance is if Jesus tells you that you can.

This is what happened in regards to 'the fruit of the vine' (wine). When the church was very young and less than 20 members it held a conference. When it came time for the conference, men were sent out to buy grape juice for the Lord's supper. The store keepers would not sell any grape juice to the Mormons. The men came back and JS asked Jesus what they should do, and Jesus gave JS permission to substitute water for the wine. In the early days, everywhere Mormons went, they were not permitted to buy the merchants grape juice, so that is the reason we use bread and water for our Lord's supper.

If the Lord had told JS that it was to be bread and wine, then by some way, that wine would have been attainable, but the Lord allowed the church to use bread and water, problem solved.

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mmksparbud said:

Jesus did no such thing. Jesus did, however, turn water into wine. If God was with you---He would have provided the grape juice. Besides, that was a long time ago, you certainly can obtain grape juice now and have been able to do so for many, many years. And there are Mormons who grew grapes and juice could have been made from those. And there certainly was, nor is there now, any reason to use leavened bread. It is to be unleavened---no yeast was allowed.

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Peter1000 said:

For you to say, "Jesus did no such thing", is not only ignorant because of a lack of knowledge, but is ignorant because of a lack of proper people etiquette.

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mmksparbud said:

It may be poor people etiquette---of which I am constantly at fault of---but definitely not out of a lack of knowledge. I know of Jesus. The Jesus of the bible, the real one. He always provides. And you did not explain about the leavened bread. That certainly was never needed.

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Peter1000 said:

You do not know if Jesus communicated with JS. It is only because we teach things a little differently about Jesus that makes you think you know that Jesus did not communicate with JS. If we do not believe the same things that you believe, then for sure Jesus did not communicate with JS.

You must know as SDA that your belief system is contrary to many Christian churches, not just the Church of Jesus Christ. So why do you not attack them as ferociously as you attack us? I just want you to know that your belief system does not determine if Jesus wants to communicate with JS. He did and we have a level of knowledge, most of which is clearly in the bible, and some of which you have to dig and find the truth, but it is there, it is just not laid out clearly.

Are you saying that the Lord's supper should include unleavened bread too?

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mmksparbud said:

It has nothing to do with my being SDA---It has everything to do with what the bible says Jesus is and what it says He does. It is not an attack. It is simply not acknowledging what I do not believe to be true.
Unleavened bread was what Jesus and all Jews had at Passover, unleavened bread is used in Christian churches for the Lords supper.

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Peter1000 said:

You have every right to say, " I believe this did not happen", but to just say, "it did not happen" is in the least presumptuous, and in the max, ignorant.

Christian churches use all kinds of things in the sacraments, I have received a cracker, a small piece of leavened bread, and a small piece of unleavened bread. So to say that unleavened bread is used in Christian churches is probably only 1/2 true.

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dzheremi said:

Western Christians in general and Armenian Orthodox in particular use unleavened bread.

Pretty much everyone else (Greeks, Slavs, Romanians, Copts, Syrians, etc.) uses leavened bread.

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