Bible's code of morality.

2PhiloVoid said:

That's assuming there's no god in the mix, which is assuming a whole lot .........................

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I dont think so.

The evolution of morals is a plain fact on display to anyone with even the slightest grasp of human history.

Now, you can explain that evolution in terms of divine providence, or in naturalistic terms.

Even the Bible itself is, among other things, a record of the moral evolution of a people.

TruthSeeker321 said:

Please enlighten me. Which verse did I pick randomly? All these verses are found in the Bible; I didn't create any verse though.

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All of these verses. I mean, it's not like you can just open the bible (like one might do with the Qu'ran), point to a verse or two, pull it out [or in this case, nicely cut and past], and then assert 'VIOLA!, instance verse citation!' Thus, just because some little do-dad of a proposition (or narrative statement) is found in the bible and you happen to randomly choose to read it doesn't mean YOU understand it.

Do you need a little remedial help with understanding these points I'm making about Hermeneutics?

durangodawood said:

I dont think so.

The evolution of morals is a plain fact on display to anyone with even the slightest grasp of human history.

Now, you can explain that evolution in terms of divine providence, or in naturalistic terms.

Even the Bible itself is, among other things, a record of the moral evolution of a people.

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I think your use of "evolution" in this case is an equivocation, one laced with sociological poo-poo, and anyone with "even the slightest grasp of human history AND science" would know this!

TruthSeeker321 said:

Okay, explain to me these verses and their right context.

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As I alluded to above about what should come before such and such, then we can do what you're requesting AFTER we settle some other variables in our communication and evaluative processes, TS. Does this sound ok with you?

2PhiloVoid said:

I think your use of "evolution" in this case is an equivocation, one laced with sociological poo-poo, and anyone with "even the slightest grasp of human history AND science" would know this!

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How or where did I equivocate?

Point it out.

durangodawood said:

How or where did I equivocate?

Point it out.

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Well, you "caught me." Y'know, I guess I can't really say that you've equivocated if I don't really understand your position fully by which to make an evaluation and thereby discern a difference between your view and some other viewpoint on the same subject matter. So, you win! I guess I'll have to know from whence you've drawn your conclusion on the relationship between ethical evaluation and human evolution.

Since I've overstepped my boundaries by putting on a big front, I guess I just need to ask you to share your source material from which you proceeded to make your assertion above. That way I can learn better and educate myself about your position.

TruthSeeker321 said:

Can you please show me where I am mistaken? Aren't these verses from the Bible?

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Is everything in the Bible recommended? Some guy in the Bible cut his lover to pieces after she was gang raped. That's not to say we should follow suit. It's just a record of what men did in many cases.

TruthSeeker321 said:

Hello there, I would like to know your opinions on these verses:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, chhygiened infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

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There were a few evil nations that God told them to destroy. Not sure what else you want to be explained from that.

Pslam 137
Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

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This was during the Jewish exile in Babylon. They had enslaved the Jews, killed their babies, and destroyed their city and God's people were crying out for the same kind of revenge on them.

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

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The word used here is not the Greek douli, the classic term for "slaves." Rather, it is oiketai, probably best translated as "servants." That being said, the line between servants and slaves was blurry in Peter's time. Slavery had little to do with race. Oftentimes if a man could not pay his debts he would become a slave for 7 years to pay it off. Others were prisoners of war and some were born into it. Slavery was seen as completely normal in this time period but most times it wasn't how we think of it.

She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV

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That is a metaphor for the unfaithful and ungodly behaviours of Israelites.

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

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Another directive to kill of an evil nation.
When they presented their spoils to Moses and Eleazar the priest, Moses became very angry because they had spared the lives of the women and children. Numbers 31:15-18, “And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD. Only the female children of the Midianites were spared. This ensured the demise of the Midianites as a race since there were no males to carry on the lineage.

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

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The Old Testament had a lot of health laws. They had no idea about germs or how diseases spread. While the threat of hand removal sounds grim I don't believe there is record of it ever happening. Grabbing hold of a man's genitals who was not your husband was considered a very bad crime. The offence was similar to adultery and of course, that was stoning to death.
Remember this was all part of their culture and times. We are not under any of the Old Testament laws.

How about these, OP?

Surah 2:30 said:

And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

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Surah 2:191 said:

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

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Surah 2:223 said:

Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

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Surah 2:282 said:

O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (though forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be no averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell to one another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.

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Surah 4:11 said:

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

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Surah 4:34 said:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

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Surah 9:5 said:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

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How about "tu quoque"?

TruthSeeker321 said:

Hello there, I would like to know your opinions on these verses:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Pslam 137
Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

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I think they are atrocious and vile.

THE W said:

whaddAn00b

so we're gonna have some guy going around posting threads with objections to the faith believing that no one has ever dealt with any of this stuff.

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How do you deal with it? Can you deal with it now, on this post?

Emmylouwho said:

How do you deal with it? Can you deal with it now, on this post?

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nah,

i'll let you guys think that you presented something that hasn't been dealt with 1000s of times and that you have quoted these texts in their proper context.

THE W said:

nah,

i'll let you guys think that you presented something that hasn't been dealt with 1000s of times and that you have quoted these texts in their proper context.

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So you have no valid response. Your participation in this thread is invalid.

Emmylouwho said:

So you have no valid response. Your participation in this thread is invalid.

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make an invalid claim, get an invalid response.

Please tell me why the claim is not valid.

Tinker Grey said:

How about "tu quoque"?

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You know the saying about glass houses...

Strathos said:

You know the saying about glass houses...

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It's still a fallacious response.