Baptism

ChristianForCats said:

The same is true for babies. Parents just go through the motions when they get their infants baptized.

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So there would be no reason to refuse baptism to an infant if an adult were no more cognizant of what it was all about but was baptized anyway. That was my point, yes.

Albion said:

So there would be no reason to refuse baptism to an infant if an adult were no more cognizant of what it was all about but was baptized anyway. That was my point, yes.

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Uh, what? Anyone who is a BELIEVER can and must be baptized. Nobody is refused the right to a baptism becausei ti s not a right, but a command that people choose to do. There is NOTHING that proves babies are able to believe Jesus is Lord.

iLearn said:

At least for me. The original verse for Matthew 28:19 is "Go and make disciples of all nations in My name". This can be confirmed from the writings of Eusebius. Nothing about water baptism at all.

And also according to Zac Poonen, one should never create a doctrine out of the book of Acts, because it is only a historical book. IMO, if one wants to make a new doctrine use only the 4 gospels of Mark, Luke, Matthew and John.

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No offense to Eusebius or Zac Poonen, but the Bible is either the word of God or we are without any bearings as Christians.

And that is to say nothing of the rather questionable policy of holding oneself apart from the whole of Christian history, which is what believing only what one wants to believe out of the entirety of Scripture amounts to.

ChristianForCats said:

Uh, what?

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I was merely reasserting what you wrote. If an adult is excused from knowing what baptism is all about, so logically should also a small child.

Albion said:

I was merely reasserting what you wrote. If an adult is excused from knowing what baptism is all about, so logically should also a small child.

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I never said anything about adults being excused from knowing what baptism is all about. Knowing how a person is saved (faith alone) and choosing to be a believer, which babies are unable to comprehend, is all one needs to be baptized.

ChristianForCats said:

Hey Oscar, I would love to discuss this topic in a relevant forum (Spiritual Gifts or Pentecostal).

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Go to Spiritual Gifts - Sign Gifts and tag me in so I get the notification.

How do I tag you in?

ChristianForCats said:

It is 100% our decision to accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ. If this was false, there would be no sin.

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It's not our decision to accept Jesus. Because man is sinful, his will is broken, sinful, fallen. As we read in Scripture, we did not choose Him, He chose us (John 15:16), and elsewhere that we "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13). Since the heart of man is sinful and sick (Jeremiah 17:9), because "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) we can be certain that the flesh accomplishes nothing. For, in fact, we were "dead in our trespasses" (Ephesians 2:1) and thus "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So salvation is God's gracious work, not a human work. Our salvation was not our choice, but God's gracious work and act.

I assume you know this as a Christian yourself. God does not come down; the Holy Spirit is already here in our hearts.

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God does come down. If He didn't, then we would be hopelessly lost; but God in His kindness always comes down. God came down, for we read that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14), our Lord Jesus Christ is God come down. God came down on Pentecost, just as was promised in ancient times, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions." (Joel 2:28), and as St. John the Baptist had said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matthew 3:11), and our Lord Jesus Himself said, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever," (John 14:16) "And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, 'you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'" (Acts of the Apostles 1:4-5).

God comes down in His word, for the Gospel "is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile, for through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith'" (Romans 1:16-17), and also that Christ has sanctified and cleansed His Church through the washing of water by the word (Ephesians 5:26). And He comes down in Baptism, for here "All of you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27), for we have been given here in Baptism a spiritual circumcision made without hands, "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses," (Colossians 2:11-13). It is God who comes down in the Eucharist, for here is Christ's own very flesh and blood, even as He declared and promised, "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." (1 Corinthians 11:23-26) for says St. Paul, "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16).

Time and again, it is God who comes down. It is God who comes down in the Incarnation. It is God who comes down in the pouring out of the Spirit on all flesh. It is God who comes down in His Word and Sacraments. It is God who creates faith (Romans 10:17), and gives faith (Ephesians 2:8) and works in us the working of salvation, through the Holy Spirit. It is God who does these things.

We don't go up.
God comes down.

Holy Spirit baptism does not occur until a person has decided to believe and accept Him.

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Baptism with the Holy Spirit, biblically, refers to the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh, which we see having happened on Pentecost as recorded in the 2nd chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. In a secondary way we see a kind of second Pentecost with God's sign that the Gentiles were to be included, as recorded in the 10th and 11th chapters of the Acts.

There's literally no where in Scripture which even so much suggests that baptism with the Holy Spirit "occurs when a person has decided to believe and accept" Jesus. That's simply not found anywhere in Scripture.

Sacraments are just symbolic commands because we have already been saved.

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That's not biblical, nor is it what the Church has ever believed. Scripture teaches that Baptism and the Eucharist are not "just symbolic commands", but rather explicitly say what they are.

Scripture teaches us what Baptism is in John 3:5, Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:11-13, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 to just name a few.

Scripture teaches us what the Eucharist is in Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:48-59, 1 Corinthians 10:16-18, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26

None of those passages teach that the Sacraments are "symbolic", they teach us quite explicitly what Baptism and the Eucharist actually are. Not symbols, but divine works of God which actually are what they claim to be.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

So salvation is God's gracious work, not a human work. Our salvation was not our choice, but God's gracious work and act.

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My issue with this idea is the fact that if it was up to God, everyone would have a free ride to heaven. He, of course, wants everyone to be saved, not just the 2.5 billion Christians and to-be-miscarried fetuses.

Albion said:

I wonder how many baptised adults actually understand the nature of God, sin, repentance, faith, etc. It's shockingly few.

But you know what?--hardly any pastor who, although refusing to baptize a child, ever makes sure that these adults do!

No, it's considered sufficient for them merely to say they do. How is that any better than an infant?.

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It's not any better, both are invalid in terms of biblical water baptism. It's either baptism or it's not. All these folks are just getting wet, or getting their babies wet.

112358 said:

It's not any better, both are invalid in terms of biblical water baptism. It's either baptism or it's not. All these folks are just getting wet, or getting their babies wet.

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Or maybe they ALL are being validly baptized.

After all, no one really understands the things of God, let alone how he works through the sacraments he chose to establish. So how can that be the test of validity?

Albion said:

Or maybe they ALL are being validly baptized.

After all, no one really understands the things of God, let alone how he works through the sacraments he chose to establish. So how can that be the test of validity?

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It's true that there are some things about God which He has not revealed, and therefore about which we really don't understand. Respectfully, the purpose of NT baptism is not one of those things. Scripture is quite clear and even simple on this subject in my opinion. Those things which He has revealed are for our benefit according to His good and perfect will, and He is not the author of confusion.

Someone brought a point to my attention which I thought was quite interesting. Consider the moment God the Father chose to communicate His pleasure with His Son (Matthew 3). It's the only time I am aware of that He did this, and I wonder why it might not have happened at some other time, like at some point after His resurrection, for example. Or even at His ascension perhaps, when His ministry had reached fulfillment and He returned His heavenly throne. Is there significance in the fact that God the Father revealed Himself in this way at the moment Christ was baptized? Should that inform us about anything regarding the significance God places on baptism, or our obedience unto the same, especially in light of what the rest of the NT reveals on the subject?

Not something I had put much thought into until recently. Interested in others thoughts.

112358 said:

It's true that there are some things about God which He has not revealed, and therefore about which we really don't understand. Respectfully, the purpose of NT baptism is not one of those things. Scripture is quite clear and even simple on this subject in my opinion. Those things which He has revealed are for our benefit according to His good and perfect will, and He is not the author of confusion.

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Well, it is clear that the opponents of infant baptism insist that a 10 year old child who says that he loves Jesus is qualified to receive baptism, and no one can seriously argue that his acceptance of the Lord is any more perceptive or meaningful than that of a 3 year old who, however, is denied baptism in the same church!

Albion said:

Well, it is clear that the opponents of infant baptism insist that a 10 year old child who says that he loves Jesus is qualified to receive baptism, and no one can seriously argue that his acceptance of the Lord is any more perceptive or meaningful than that of a 3 year old who, however, is denied baptism in the same church!

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I am not one who would insist that this 10 year old child is qualified.

112358 said:

I am not one who would insist that this 10 year old child is qualified.

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That's good, but there is no denying that in many of the denominations/congregations that so vehemently teach that infant baptism is invalid, 10 year olds ARE baptized routinely--and often children younger than that.

This practice illustrates the illogic that is usually part of the 'no infants' argument.

Albion said:

That's good, but there is no denying that in many of the denominations/congregations that so vehemently teach that infant baptism is invalid, 10 year olds ARE baptized routinely--and often children younger than that.

This practice illustrates the illogic that is usually part of the 'no infants' argument.

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Agreed. I think baptism is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts in the NT. People just can't let scripture say what is says.

Everyone in the New Covenant knows the Lord there is no such thing as someone in the covenant and not knowing Him.

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jer. 31

Yours in the Lord,

jm

112358 said:

It's not any better, both are invalid in terms of biblical water baptism. It's either baptism or it's not. All these folks are just getting wet, or getting their babies wet.

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So you have to understand what the baptism is about for it to be valid even if you are a Christian? In that case, there should be a lot of rebaptisms.

Albion said:

Well, it is clear that the opponents of infant baptism insist that a 10 year old child who says that he loves Jesus is qualified to receive baptism, and no one can seriously argue that his acceptance of the Lord is any more perceptive or meaningful than that of a 3 year old who, however, is denied baptism in the same church!

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A 10-year old child is mentally able to choose to follow and believe in Jesus Christ. The Vineyard churches believe an 8-year old can do it, so that is their minimum age for baptisms.