What is WOF?

hhodgson said:

That's a question for you to ask T. B. Joshua. We don't know what spirit he was in... but, my answer would most definitely be that by distributing wheel chairs was NOT part of God's (Plan A). What did Peter say, (Acts 3:6) "Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk."

I don't know if you've ever heard of R. W. Schambach. His ministry was worldwide. He would not only just pray for the guy in a wheelchair. He would take that wheelchair and throw on the floor up in the pulpit area. Last time we've been to one of his services, he sadly passed on two weeks later to gloryland. We didn't see him throwing wheelchairs but, he threw away some crutches and neck braces.

Harry

View attachment 263374​

Click to expand...

hhodgson said:

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk."

Click to expand...

Does this verse say, "I give not only you but ALL...rise up and walk" to the point where there were no more crippled in Israel after that incident?

Did Jesus say, "There were also many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian” & thus testify to God's sovereign will?

Si_monfaith said:

Is God obligated to will these for all?

Click to expand...

God won't do any more, or any less outside of the written Word, and the spoken Word of Jesus Christ. He's not obligated to no one, but... He will honor His Word... and even magnifies the Word above all His name (Psalms 138:2). The book of Psalms also declares the Word of God to be “pure” (tried and true) and “forever…settled in heaven” (Psalm 119:89, 140). God is always watching over His Word anxious... to perform it, and fulfill it (Jeremiah 1:12).

Andrewn said:

I think most Pentecostals are Arminians. But I see that you're a Calvinist. Of course, we're not going to solve this centuries-long controversy, here.

In your thinking, Peter was suddenly given faith, and obedience followed. The issue here is that the Biblical word "pistis" can mean both "faith" and "faithfulness." So, I think Bonhoeffer is saying that Peter was suddenly given Grace through the hearing of the Word, and faith / faithfulness followed. Note that without Peter exercising his free will, faith / faithfulness would not have followed.

I just noticed that you're a Baptist. This is why you have Calvinist theology.

Click to expand...

Can we see God's word apart from "isms"? So how do you see "for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)"?

Andrewn said:

I think most Pentecostals are Arminians. But I see that you're a Calvinist. Of course, we're not going to solve this centuries-long controversy, here.

In your thinking, Peter was suddenly given faith, and obedience followed. The issue here is that the Biblical word "pistis" can mean both "faith" and "faithfulness." So, I think Bonhoeffer is saying that Peter was suddenly given Grace through the hearing of the Word, and faith / faithfulness followed. Note that without Peter exercising his free will, faith / faithfulness would not have followed.

I just noticed that you're a Baptist. This is why you have Calvinist theology.

Click to expand...

You misjudge, and no, that's not why.
TD

hhodgson said:

God won't do any more, or any less outside of the written Word, and the spoken Word of Jesus Christ. He's not obligated to no one, but... He will honor His Word... and even magnifies the Word above all His name (Psalms 138:2). The book of Psalms also declares the Word of God to be “pure” (tried and true) and “forever…settled in heaven” (Psalm 119:89, 140). God is always watching over His Word anxious... to perform it, and fulfill it (Jeremiah 1:12).

View attachment 263449​

Click to expand...

Does God's spoken word say His acts of blessing are based on His sovereign will ("he has mercy on whomever he chooses - Romans 9:18)?

Andrewn said:

This is my most favorite verse in the Bible. Without God's grace nothing would be accomplished. All these "isms" describe what we think but do not separate us from the love of Christ.

Click to expand...

Now, did Peter exercise his freewill or God was in control of his will & works to execute what pleased "Him" not Peter, in eternity?

Andrewn said:

I'm not sure how I judged or misjudged anything. I was just trying to explain one aspect of the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism. If I misspoke, I apologize. Please explain my misunderstanding.

Click to expand...

Ok, I'll assume it's an honest request. You appeared to form conclusions about me without asking any questions, and without knowing me, for example:

"I see that you're a Calvinist." I actually have not read much by Calvin, so I am not his follower. I get my doctrine solely from scripture. I do listen to people, and then evaluate what they say against scripture. My theology has changed over the years based on better knowledge of scripture. I don't follow Calvinism nor do I know much about what that camp teaches, so I really don't know much about it. So it appears to me that you jumped to a conclusion when you hung that label on me.

"In your thinking..." Now, how do you know what I'm thinking? In fact, you really don't, since your conclusion about what I'm thinking was incorrect.

"In your thinking, Peter was suddenly given faith..." is not correct, since that is not what I was thinking. But let me ask you some rhetorical questions for your consideration:
If Peter "suddenly" had faith at the sight of Jesus, was that faith already embedded in his spirit, and bore fruit at that time?
If spiritual wisdom comes from God as James teaches, was Peter's wisdom to exercise faith a gift of God then?
Is it possible that the moment of Peter's exercise of faith, that the Holy Spirit was moving on him to exercise it?
Is it possible that his exercise of faith began not with stepping out of the boat, but with his request?
Is it possible that the very idea of his request came from inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

"I just noticed that you're a Baptist." In fact, you don't know me. Actually, I labelled myself "Baptist" at the time I joined the forum years ago, because I happened to be attending a Baptist church at the time. I never changed the label because you apparently have to jump through hoops to do so, which I didn't know at the time.

"This is why you have Calvinist theology." No, it's not why, even if we use that label. In fact, many Baptists are of the Arminian persuasion. But I consider my theology to be Pauline, which was followed by Augustine, who most of the reformers got clarity of their ideas from his writings in addition to their study of the scripture.

So now can you see that your communication contains false conclusions, and are therefore misjudgments?
TD

Si_monfaith said:

Now, did Peter exercise his freewill or God was in control of his will & works to execute what pleased "Him" not Peter, in eternity?

Click to expand...

Si_ God does not "control" anybody's will. I'm sure you don't actually agree with what you wrote. Peter made a "choice" and was obedient to the faith and of course God was pleased. Faith (applied) is the only way to please Him. He could have left anytime He wanted to.

hhodgson said:

Si_ God does not "control" anybody's will. I'm sure you don't actually agree with what you wrote. Peter made a "choice" and was obedient to the faith and of course God was pleased. Faith (applied) is the only way to please Him. He could have left anytime He wanted to.

View attachment 263509​

Click to expand...

Did you consider Philippians 2:13 when mentioning what Peter did?

Jonaitis said:

They believe in the prosperity gospel from what I understand. You know, "It is God's will for you to have health, wealth and prosperity."

Click to expand...

They?
I bet you think we just love Benny Hinn too.
It's God's Will we have Faith.

Hebrews 11: 3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The name Word of Faith, does not equate to Prosperity Gospel.
It would be hyprocritics who deny the benefits of prosperity, unless they could live by the language they use.
Unless a Man enjoys lack, refuses any thing that others around the World would consider Prosperty, such as shoes it is hypocritical to place prosperity in a negitive presumption.
No God's Word does not mandate suffering and poverty.
Yet if offends a brother He should not enjoy the benefit of prosperity.

Romans 14: 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Those who are in the Body of Christ , redeemed by His Blood by Gods Grace through Faith, are unique to this World.
Unlike all those before us, for Two thousand years we have Had and will have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us.
God lives in our eternal being.
Prior to Christ God could not look upon sin, and Man did not have the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who is Christ and God in constant being with us.
If that was promised and now is , is not prosperity then there is no such thing as prosperity.
We are commanded to love one another , I really do not see the love in critism without due cause.
There are Televangelist and there are those who follow Christ and His Word .
Thank you for your visit.

Andrewn said:

In The Cost Of Discipleship, Dietrich Bonhoeffer answered this question. He wrote, "The road to faith passes through obedience to the call of Jesus. Unless a definite step is demanded, the call vanishes into thin air, and if men imagine that they can follow Jesus without taking this step, they are deluding themselves like fanatics."

To illustrate this concept, Bonhoeffer gives the examples of Levi leaving his post and Peter leaving his boat.

One can choose to reject God's grace.


Perhaps hhodgson would answer this one.

Click to expand...

I hope so , I enjoy your fellowship.
It is difficult to have a reasonable fellowship with others egos flying amuck.
I see this statement as true due to Spirtual Faith being impossible without the knowlage of God
We are new creatures in Christ, we seek to please Him in all things.
Faith in Him manifested our salvation, can we sin yes, are we forgiven yes.
I will forgo the verses unless requested.
Where ever you find a teaching that has obscured our Spirtual relationship with Christ, you will find a lack of Faith.
The same Peter that got out of the Boat, denied Christ three times.
Yet when Christ was raised from the tomb, he added in his message : tell Peter also.
We often put punishment upon those who are forgiven, not our Job.
I'm sure hhodgson will respond , in a much better way , thank you for asking a good Question.

tdidymas said:

Ok, I'll assume it's an honest request. You appeared to form conclusions about me without asking any questions, and without knowing me, for example:

"I see that you're a Calvinist." I actually have not read much by Calvin, so I am not his follower. I get my doctrine solely from scripture. I do listen to people, and then evaluate what they say against scripture. My theology has changed over the years based on better knowledge of scripture. I don't follow Calvinism nor do I know much about what that camp teaches, so I really don't know much about it. So it appears to me that you jumped to a conclusion when you hung that label on me.

"In your thinking..." Now, how do you know what I'm thinking? In fact, you really don't, since your conclusion about what I'm thinking was incorrect.

"In your thinking, Peter was suddenly given faith..." is not correct, since that is not what I was thinking. But let me ask you some rhetorical questions for your consideration:
If Peter "suddenly" had faith at the sight of Jesus, was that faith already embedded in his spirit, and bore fruit at that time?
If spiritual wisdom comes from God as James teaches, was Peter's wisdom to exercise faith a gift of God then?
Is it possible that the moment of Peter's exercise of faith, that the Holy Spirit was moving on him to exercise it?
Is it possible that his exercise of faith began not with stepping out of the boat, but with his request?
Is it possible that the very idea of his request came from inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

"I just noticed that you're a Baptist." In fact, you don't know me. Actually, I labelled myself "Baptist" at the time I joined the forum years ago, because I happened to be attending a Baptist church at the time. I never changed the label because you apparently have to jump through hoops to do so, which I didn't know at the time.

"This is why you have Calvinist theology." No, it's not why, even if we use that label. In fact, many Baptists are of the Arminian persuasion. But I consider my theology to be Pauline, which was followed by Augustine, who most of the reformers got clarity of their ideas from his writings in addition to their study of the scripture.

So now can you see that your communication contains false conclusions, and are therefore misjudgments?
TD

Click to expand...

Calvin and Wycliff were both influnced by Augisitine.
Word of Faith founder Kenneth Hagin started as a Baptist Pastor.
EW Keynon was a Free Will Bapist Pastor He also had influnce on the Word of Faith Movement.
I was raised in the Free Will Baptist Church, and had no idea of God predestined mankind.
I enjoy being a full Gospel believer because I simply cannot toss out what I do not agree with in the Bible.
I agree with all of God's Word, but most who say Sola Schiptura are Cessationist.
I am not so I would be what would be called Prima Schiptura

Here's a open question:
Have you ever noticed that when progress is forthcoming a spirit of distraction will step into the circle?
As the old saying goes the devil is in the details.

hhodgson said:

You could put 20 of us at the same table and it's (possible) there could be 20 differences in our Word of Faith beliefs.

Click to expand...

As there is in those who are called Pentecostals or Baptists or even some of the old line denominations.

Yes, we do (strongly) teach that God wants ALL of us to "prosper and be in good health... as our soul prospers" (3 John 1:2).

Click to expand...

So with that even being a verse of scripture even critics who claim themselves to be Christian cannot say God isn't interested in prospering his children. They of course are right to define what that means but they can't just make a blank statement they don't believe in prosperity.....if they do they're outside of the Bible.

There is NO such thing as a prosperity gospel, and sad to say, that many of them, (actually) do know that... but yet, it's usually the first thing brought up in their articles, and other writings anyway. They may, or may not know it but they will be held accountable.

Click to expand...

Yes I think there are many who use hyperbole for effect and God knows their inward motives for doing so. For those who are willingly being disingenuous and are claiming those believing in prosperity (according to the scriptures) and that's the full scope of their gospel belief generally speaking that'd be bearing false witness about one's brethren.

You brought up "faith as a force." I see no problem with that as it is.

Click to expand...

I think critics who bring up this concern are a little bit disingenous. The KNOW for example such a statement can be used in other places which would more rightly connect to what some Word of Faith preachers are really meaning but they won't acknowledge that. For example, in culture one could be called a force for good merely for calling the police to help another...does that mean they're the ACTUAL force which does the helping? NO. But the term CAN BE used.

God's glory and HIS POWER is the actual strength or ability that effects change. 2 Cor 4:7 That doesn't mean our faith isn't the determining factor which allows the release of the real power or force that brings about the change.

As for now, I'll address the "name it and claim it" thing.

Click to expand...

Yeah the phrase "name it and claim it" again is just merely being hyperbolic on purpose for effect. The statement was coined to leave the impression that, "Oh you people believe God will just do ANYTHING you demand or ask!" The truth is though NOBODY believes that at least among Word of Faith Bible teachers, but it doesn't stop some from saying it.

I recall more than once Word of Faith Bible teachers those known to be leaders in the movement clearly stating YOU CAN'T just believe for whatever you want. Some have tried to claim somebody else's spouse to be theirs and the response always comes back..."You can't do that! You're outside of the word!" So the idea WOF leaders go off and claim just name it and claim it is really willfully misrepresenting others. In my opinion they'd be wise to stop doing so.