What is WOF?

Si_monfaith

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Calvin and Wycliff were both influnced by Augisitine.
Word of Faith founder Kenneth Hagin started as a Baptist Pastor.
EW Keynon was a Free Will Bapist Pastor He also had influnce on the Word of Faith Movement.
I was raised in the Free Will Baptist Church, and had no idea of God predestined mankind.
I enjoy being a full Gospel believer because I simply cannot toss out what I do not agree with in the Bible.
I agree with all of God's Word, but most who say Sola Schiptura are Cessationist.
I am not so I would be what would be called Prima Schiptura

I was raised in the Free Will Baptist Church, and had no idea of God predestined mankind.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)”.

So how do you see God working in us in order to make us "to will" or "to choose" & "do action" to "accomplish what He pleases"?
 
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hhodgson

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Now, did Peter exercise his freewill or God was in control of his will & works to execute what pleased "Him" not Peter, in eternity?

God will put His desires within the believer's spirit (in any situation)... and He will give them the physical, mental, and spiritual strength to endure. Peter simply made a "choice" and was obedient to the faith... and of course God was pleased. Faith (applied) is the only way to please Him. He could have made the "choice" of just walking away...

Keywords: (obedience to the faith by choice)


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Si_monfaith

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God will put His desires within the believer's spirit (in any situation)... and He will give them the physical, mental, and spiritual strength to endure. Peter simply made a "choice" and was obedient to the faith... and of course God was pleased. Faith (applied) is the only way to please Him. He could have made the "choice" of just walking away...

Keywords: (obedience to the faith by choice)



Peter simply made a "choice" and was obedient to the faith...

Could Peter have made any choice without God giving Him the will & action to accomplish what pleased Him as per Philippians 2:13?

Was there a divine plan & purpose in unchanging eternity when the Lord told Peter in Time "Get thee behind me satan" & when Peter denied the Lord thrice? Was the eternal plan to communicate the message "apart from My sovereign will you cannot exercise faith"?
 
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now faith

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“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)”.

So how do you see God working in us in order to make us "to will" or "to choose" & "do action" to "accomplish what He pleases"?
How does a employer manage his people?
Do they have a choice?
Many are called but few are chosen.
 
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Si_monfaith

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How does a employer manage his people?
Do they have a choice?
Many are called but few are chosen.

Is God who is the Creator the same as human employers?

Aren't employers & employees both creatures?

In light of the above, how do you see God working in us in order to make us "to will" or "to choose" & "do action" to "accomplish what He pleases" as in Philippians 2:13?
 
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now faith

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Could Peter have made any choice without God giving Him the will & action to accomplish what pleased Him as per Philippians 2:13?

Was there a divine plan & purpose in unchanging eternity when the Lord told Peter in Time "Get thee behind me satan" & when Peter denied the Lord thrice? Was the eternal plan to communicate the message "apart from My sovereign will you cannot exercise faith"?

The calling of God In your life is Gods good Pleasure.
What ever He brings you to or gifts you with is His good pleasure.
I am not seeing your point here.
This verse in no way negates free Will.
We by Faith were saved, we walk in the Spirit not in the flesh.
We seek to worship Him, God loves us enough to die for us.
Delight thyself in the Lord ,and He will give you the desires of your heart.
I am delighted to know Him, to serve Him And to praise Him.
 
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now faith

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Is God who is the Creator the same as human employers?

Aren't employers & employees both creatures?

In light of the above, how do you see God working in us in order to make us "to will" or "to choose" & "do action" to "accomplish what He pleases" as in Philippians 2:13?

Does God call you to good works?
(Reference the gifts of the ministry in Ephesians)
It is a simple metaphor, nothing implied that there is a equality between God and a employer.

As far as God's will we have God's Word to understand His will.
It is through the guidance of the Holy Spirit we are given the call to ministry, along with the Gifts. Of the Spirit.
He gives you the ability to do as you are called.
 
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Si_monfaith

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The calling of God In your life is Gods good Pleasure.
What ever He brings you to or gifts you with is His good pleasure.
I am not seeing your point here.
This verse in no way negates free Will.
We by Faith were saved, we walk in the Spirit not in the flesh.
We seek to worship Him, God loves us enough to die for us.
Delight thyself in the Lord ,and He will give you the desires of your heart.
I am delighted to know Him, to serve Him And to praise Him.

This verse in no way negates free Will.
Who gives the will and the action according to Philippians 2:13?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Does God call you to good works?
(Reference the gifts of the ministry in Ephesians)
It is a simple metaphor, nothing implied that there is a equality between God and a employer.

As far as God's will we have God's Word to understand His will.
It is through the guidance of the Holy Spirit we are given the call to ministry, along with the Gifts. Of the Spirit.
He gives you the ability to do as you are called.

As far as God's will we have God's Word to understand His will.

Does God only give an understanding of His will or "works in us to will"?

He gives you the ability to do as you are called.

Does God give the ability to do as we are called or "works in us to do" as we are called?
 
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Andrewn

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Who gives the will and the action according to Philippians 2:13?

Does God only give an understanding of His will or "works in us to will"?

Does God give the ability to do as we are called or "works in us to do" as we are called?
Phi 2:12 So then, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you, but also now much more in my absence, continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Phi 2:12 So then, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you, but also now much more in my absence, continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

What's your point? Do you mean to say you don't need God to work in you to will & do His pleasure?
 
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Andrewn

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What's your point? Do you mean to say you don't need God to work in you to will & do His pleasure?
hhodgson & now faith have already attempted to answered this question. I say "attempted" bec you apparently do not accept their answer. As a visitor in this forum, I don't want to contradict you & tdidymas. But I'm encouraged by the position of other WOF believers. Here is the whole passage:

Php 2:12 So then, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you, but also now much more in my absence, continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 In fact, it is God who is working in you, both to will and to work, for the sake of his good pleasure. 14 Do everything without complaining and arguing,

The apparent contradiction between verses 12 & 13 is mostly absent in the Greek original.

In verse 13, the word translated "to work" is STRONGS NT 1754: ἐνεργέω, from which we get the English "to energize" and the noun "energy." God can be known (i.e. experienced) in His energies. It is by His grace / energy that we are saved. Without God working / energizing in me, I can do nothing.

In verse 12, the word translated "to work out" is STRONGS NT 2716: κατεργάζομαι. "To work out (Latinefficere), i. e. to do that from which something results; of man: τήν σωτηραν, make every effort to obtain salvation, Philippians 2:12"

"To 'work out' is (as in Ephesians 6:13) to carry out to completion what is begun. This is the function of man, as fellow-worker with God, first in his own soul, and then among his brethren. God is the “beginner and perfecter” of every “good work” (see Philippians 1:6); man’s co-operation is secondary and intermediate.

"To work out your own salvation is to exercise the new moral power bestowed on the regenerate man, without the exertion of which he would fall away again from the state of grace to which he had attained in faith, and would not actually become partaker of the salvation appropriated to him by faith, so that the final reception of salvation is so far the result of his moral activity of faith in the καινότης ζωῆς.

"The regenerate man brings about his own salvation (κατεργάζεται) when he does not resist the divine working (ἘΝΕΡΓῶΝ) of the willing and the working (ἘΝΕΡΓΕῖΝ) in his soul, but yields steady obedience to it in continual conflict with the opposing powers (Ephesians 6:10 ff.; Galatians 5:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:8, al.); so that he περιπατεῖ, not ΚΑΤᾺ ΣΆΡΚΑ, but ΚΑΤᾺ ΠΝΕῦΜΑ(Romans 8:4), is consequently the child of God, and as child becomes heir (Romans 8:14; Romans 8:17; Romans 8:23)."

The above quotations are from Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Meyer's NT Commentary. I hope they make clear the synergistic relationship between God's work / energy and the working out of the believer to achieve salvation.
 
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now faith

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Who gives the will and the action according to Philippians 2:13?

In order to grasp the intention of the narritive in this chapter, we have to read the reason Paul made this statement.
1 we see in chapter one and two there are false teachers there.
2 it is Paul's desire to return there.
3 Paul is unable to go to them, He is in bonds.
4 He states He will send Timothy in his place, because He Does not want them corrupted by false teachers.

At the point Paul States Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling is a idiomatic expression.
Since no one qualified may be there is the reason for the statement.
Paul reinforces the serious nature of false teaching, in other words be careful not to fall and offend God.
We can not always understand a literal interpretation of God's Word when the inspired Authors express their feelings with idioms, and this is normal for a text that is born of the Spirit .
Here is the cause of the misunderstanding:

Definition. An idiom (also called idiomatic expression) is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning conventionally understood by native speakers. This meaning is different from the literal meaning of the idiom's individual elements.

In other Words it was a figure of speech.
It's not what you say ,it is how you say it sometimes.

Hope this helps.
 
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Si_monfaith

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hhodgson & now faith have already attempted to answered this question. I say "attempted" bec you apparently do not accept their answer. As a visitor in this forum, I don't want to contradict you & tdidymas. But I'm encouraged by the position of other WOF believers. Here is the whole passage:

Php 2:12 So then, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you, but also now much more in my absence, continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 In fact, it is God who is working in you, both to will and to work, for the sake of his good pleasure. 14 Do everything without complaining and arguing,

The apparent contradiction between verses 12 & 13 is mostly absent in the Greek original.

In verse 13, the word translated "to work" is STRONGS NT 1754: ἐνεργέω, from which we get the English "to energize" and the noun "energy." God can be known (i.e. experienced) in His energies. It is by His grace / energy that we are saved. Without God working / energizing in me, I can do nothing.

In verse 12, the word translated "to work out" is STRONGS NT 2716: κατεργάζομαι. "To work out (Latinefficere), i. e. to do that from which something results; of man: τήν σωτηραν, make every effort to obtain salvation, Philippians 2:12"

"To 'work out' is (as in Ephesians 6:13) to carry out to completion what is begun. This is the function of man, as fellow-worker with God, first in his own soul, and then among his brethren. God is the “beginner and perfecter” of every “good work” (see Philippians 1:6); man’s co-operation is secondary and intermediate.

"To work out your own salvation is to exercise the new moral power bestowed on the regenerate man, without the exertion of which he would fall away again from the state of grace to which he had attained in faith, and would not actually become partaker of the salvation appropriated to him by faith, so that the final reception of salvation is so far the result of his moral activity of faith in the καινότης ζωῆς.

"The regenerate man brings about his own salvation (κατεργάζεται) when he does not resist the divine working (ἘΝΕΡΓῶΝ) of the willing and the working (ἘΝΕΡΓΕῖΝ) in his soul, but yields steady obedience to it in continual conflict with the opposing powers (Ephesians 6:10 ff.; Galatians 5:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:8, al.); so that he περιπατεῖ, not ΚΑΤᾺ ΣΆΡΚΑ, but ΚΑΤᾺ ΠΝΕῦΜΑ(Romans 8:4), is consequently the child of God, and as child becomes heir (Romans 8:14; Romans 8:17; Romans 8:23)."

The above quotations are from Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Meyer's NT Commentary. I hope they make clear the synergistic relationship between God's work / energy and the working out of the believer to achieve salvation.

make every effort to obtain salvation

So isn't your spirit yet saved while Ephesians 2:8,9 says one is already saved by grace through faith? (8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast”).

synergistic relationship between God's work / energy and the working out of the believer to achieve

By claiming "synergistic relationship", are you contradicting Ephesians 2:8,9 which says "not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"?

Is synergistic relationship a boasting about human will & works?

continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 In fact, it is God who is working in you, both to will and to work,

Why didn't you quote the phrase "both to will" in bold letters as well?
 
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Si_monfaith

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In order to grasp the intention of the narritive in this chapter, we have to read the reason Paul made this statement.
1 we see in chapter one and two there are false teachers there.
2 it is Paul's desire to return there.
3 Paul is unable to go to them, He is in bonds.
4 He states He will send Timothy in his place, because He Does not want them corrupted by false teachers.

At the point Paul States Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling is a idiomatic expression.
Since no one qualified may be there is the reason for the statement.
Paul reinforces the serious nature of false teaching, in other words be careful not to fall and offend God.
We can not always understand a literal interpretation of God's Word when the inspired Authors express their feelings with idioms, and this is normal for a text that is born of the Spirit .
Here is the cause of the misunderstanding:

Definition. An idiom (also called idiomatic expression) is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning conventionally understood by native speakers. This meaning is different from the literal meaning of the idiom's individual elements.

In other Words it was a figure of speech.
It's not what you say ,it is how you say it sometimes.

Hope this helps.

Do you mean to say God doesn't cause you to will & to do actions?

Do you mean to say God's will is causative & human will is instrumental?

Work out your own Salvation

Does "work out your own salvation" refer to make use of the salvation of your spirit you have already received by grace through faith, in order to do good works OR to try to receive salvation of the spirit, in the future, through synergistic relationship?
 
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Andrewn

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By claiming "synergistic relationship", are you contradicting Ephesians 2:8,9 which says "not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"? Is synergistic relationship a boasting about human will & works?
A synergistic relationship between God and me is like an elephant and an ant working together to move a rock. :)

My effort is not only negligible compared to God's but it is also dependent on God giving me the will and the energy to do it in the first place:

Joh 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who remains in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without Me you can do nothing.

However, as negligible our effort is, God demands it.

Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

You have to take up the armor of God. He will not put it on you.
 
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hhodgson

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“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Philippians 2:13)”. So how do you see God working in us in order to make us "to will" or "to choose" & "do action" to "accomplish what He pleases"?

Define: "make us" (It kind of means force me, in this context. It's typically used in situations where someone wants you to do something that you strongly disagree with.)​

Yes, God is working (in us) to do His will and do His pleasure...but, your missing the point Si_ . He still has to work WITH our "will". In other words... If He "wills" me to go to Africa. I can use my "will" and say, "I don't think so". And, If I continue to say, NO... then what will happen to me? Absolutely nothing... except, He will continue to Love me, and continue to work with me on other things, while He works on someone else concerning Africa, or wherever. Regardless of what happens, It's already been planned out (by Him) and He foreknew that I would say, NO! As far as God's reasoning for this... about my going, or not going to Africa... It will be revealed as His (already done) plan... unfolds to us.

So, is God going to, (using your word) --->"make" me surrender my "will" in order for Him to be pleasured? I will not be His robot Si_ and guess what? He doesn't want robots serving Him either. If I were to go to Africa. It would be my choice by applied faith to meet His desire. With that being said, God will not violate His Word in "making" me go. God "wills" His people to be obedient to the faith and, last I checked... that does not include robots!

Here's a question for you. Was Jesus (a little) hesitant when He said in the Garden, "not my "will" but "yours" be done? There's various opinions about this. Jesus knew what was coming and (may) have had thoughts of just walking away. Notice... that God sent an angel to comfort Him, and He remained obedient, as He (possibly) was in such a deep stress that He sweat drops of blood, because He knew that He would become the true Lamb of God with His blood that took away the sins of the world and bring peace and restoration to a broken relationship between God and His people once and for all.

Aren't you glad that Jesus made the right.... "choice"?

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me. Yet, not my will... but yours be done."

Word of Faith.gif
 
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Si_monfaith

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A synergistic relationship between God and me is like an elephant and an ant working together to move a rock. :)

My effort is not only negligible compared to God's but it is also dependent on God giving me the will and the energy to do it in the first place:

Joh 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who remains in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without Me you can do nothing.

However, as negligible our effort is, God demands it.

Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

You have to take up the armor of God. He will not put it on you.

However, as negligible our effort is, God demands it.

Do the phrases, "not of yourselves" and "Not of works" in Ephesians 2:8,9, say your effort is negligible or zero?

You have to take up the armor of God. He will not put it on you

According to the verse, "I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me (1 Corinthians 15:10), will you ever say "Yet not I but the grace of God which was with me took up the armor and put it on me" with humility?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Define: "make us" (It kind of means force me, in this context. It's typically used in situations where someone wants you to do something that you strongly disagree with.)​

Yes, God is working (in us) to do His will and do His pleasure...but, your missing the point Si_ . He still has to work WITH our "will". In other words... If He "wills" me to go to Africa. I can use my "will" and say, "I don't think so". And, If I continue to say, NO... then what will happen to me? Absolutely nothing... except, He will continue to Love me, and continue to work with me on other things, while He works on someone else concerning Africa, or wherever. Regardless of what happens, It's already been planned out (by Him) and He foreknew that I would say, NO! As far as God's reasoning for this... about my going, or not going to Africa... It will be revealed as His (already done) plan... unfolds to us.

So, is God going to, (using your word) --->"make" me surrender my "will" in order for Him to be pleasured? I will not be His robot Si_ and guess what? He doesn't want robots serving Him either. If I were to go to Africa. It would be my choice by applied faith to meet His desire. With that being said, God will not violate His Word in "making" me go. God "wills" His people to be obedient to the faith and, last I checked... that does not include robots!

Here's a question for you. Was Jesus (a little) hesitant when He said in the Garden, "not my "will" but "yours" be done? There's various opinions about this. Jesus knew what was coming and (may) have had thoughts of just walking away. Notice... that God sent an angel to comfort Him, and He remained obedient, as He (possibly) was in such a deep stress that He sweat drops of blood, because He knew that He would become the true Lamb of God with His blood that took away the sins of the world and bring peace and restoration to a broken relationship between God and His people once and for all.

Aren't you glad that Jesus made the right.... "choice"?

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me. Yet, not my will... but yours be done."


It's typically used in situations where someone wants you to do something that you strongly disagree with.)

Is there a difference between a command "Go to Africa" & on the other hand, giving a willing heart to go to Africa?

God is working (in us) to do His will and

Does God work in us "to do His will" or works in us by giving us a willing heart?

Regardless of what happens, It's already been planned out (by Him) and He foreknew that I would say, NO!

If He foreknew you would say "No", why would He command you "Go to Africa" in the first place? Do commands only belong to the old covenant or to the new as well?

Notice... that God sent an angel to comfort Him, and He remained obedient

Did the angel comfort Him after He made the free choice to die or before?

Aren't you glad that Jesus made the right.... "choice"?

Is Jesus different from us who are His creation?
 
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now faith

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Is there a difference between a command "Go to Africa" & on the other hand, giving a willing heart to go to Africa?



Does God work in us "to do His will" or works in us by giving us a willing heart?



If He foreknew you would say "No", why would He command you "Go to Africa" in the first place? Do commands only belong to the old covenant or to the new as well?



Did the angel comfort Him after He made the free choice to die or before?



Is Jesus different from us who are His creation?

Some people cannot grasp, that a omniscient God would lay aside all that ever was, to submit to redeeming the undeserving work of His hands.
Man in all Creation is the only being made in the image of God.
Made Perfect by being allowed to fall away, as God could and has destroyed all.
God's great Love gave Man a new beginning, and his knowlage that man could not be in the presence of God due to sin
The choice was made before the World was yet done.
The choice to make a way back to fellowship with God.
Only by sinless prefection , could man be reunited for a eternal life in Christ.

In some replays and questions my sense tells me their is a different Gosple being promoted here.
 
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