Baptism

GodLovesCats

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People are not justified before God based on any tradition based water baptismal formulas or any mumbo jumbo rituals performed by a man instituted priesthood.

People are justified by grace through a personal appropriation of the work of Jesus Christ on their behalf that He offers to take care of the sin problem they have with God.

Anything that adds to that simple gospel is nothing less than a false gospel.

A lot of church activities are pleasing to God and can be of benefit to believers. But adding layers of chaff to the simple gospel of grace isn't one of them.

God comannded all believers to be baptized in water. That is not adding anything, but doing what He said and John did. The message is clear: the apostles were instructed to preach the Gospel, then baptize all of the new believers. Where is the edded work to be justified?
 
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zoidar

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I am mentally handicapped so any suggestion such people are unable to understand the Gospel is directly from SATAN! You break the rules by claiming I am not a Christian if you think being mentally ill prevents a person from understanding Christ.

From my perspective, writing "mentally handicapped" and "not able to understand the gospel" together is a blanket statement that if someone does not have normal thought processes, he or she can't love Jesus. It also means only people who are mentally handicapped cannot love Jesus because you single them out.

I will begin reporting everyone who uses the term "mentally handicapped" in this manner if it continues. I will not tolerate it for one second.

Denying a person baptism? It is entirely that person's choice to be a believer and all believers are to be baptized.

I'm sorry that you got offended. Most people are able to understand the gospel. There are rare cases though that people are just as capable as an infant to understand the gospel. We had a girl at our church. As a teenager she couldn't even show signs she understood anyone talking to her. She couldn't eat, speak, move or anything. I also work as an assistant. One of my clients was a 20 year old guy who had the intellect of a two year old. If I was a Christian parent to them, I would have them both baptized, for being part of my Christian family. And the Bible says whole familes were baptized, so I would go with that. I'm not saying I KNOW this is the right thing to do, but I BELIEVE it's the right thing to do.

Good bless you sis!
/P

P. S.
Of course I believe we are all equal to God and each other, with or without physical or mental disability. My teacher at my theology study is a bright Christian with cerebral palsy.
 
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iLearn

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But Jesus explicitly instructed his Apostles to baptize converts, so that OT theory is obviously not correct.
The verse in matthew 28:19 was added later and is not found in the oldest manuscripts. So the great commission to baptist is really questionable. To spread the good news? yes, but baptism is not required. Even Paul confirmed it.

But really this is a small issue. If one wants to get water baptism then go ahead. If one has strong faith in God and feel unecessary to observe it then don't need to do it. Remember Paul said if one wants to eat food offered to idol it is not a problem, but will be problematic with those with weak faith.
 
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TraceMalin

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I don't think baptism needs to be performed at all. I mean, it's a nice ceremony. I was baptized as an infant. My girlfriend's daughter was fully immersed in the sea. It can make a family feel better or be a moving affirmation of one's decision to wash their inequities clean through Jesus.

But, as is written in Matthew Chapter 3 verse 11:

“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

That says to me that by accepting Jesus as our savior the baptism is the Holy Spirit and fire isn't literal, but a fire within, like the phrase, "fire in your belly."
 
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lsume

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It may be meaningful, but it's not "baptism." Or the Lord's Supper, or repentance, or prayer, or an act of mercy, or any of the other things we think important in the life of the believer.
The Baptism happened to me when Christ prepared me for It. In my case, He prepared me for The Baptism in The Holy Spirit.
 
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Pioneer3mm

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There was no New Testament in the early church when Peter and Paul were going around preaching the gospel, so deeper theological issues like the Trinity weren't really considered. The main focus was to get Jews and pagans converted to Christ, so most early Christians probably never thought about it.

Anyhow, both instructions from Peter and Paul in answer to questions, "How do I/we get saved? was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" full stop. So salvation comes through faith in Christ alone apart from anything else, therefore whether one has solved the mystery of the Trinity or not is immaterial. I think that the Lord's answer to such a question would be, "What is that to you? Follow Me."

Good comment/point.
----
I am a Trinitarian.
-----
Historical study/research on 'Trinity' is very interesting..
- Why & How..development/formulating process.
- From several historical sources/perspectives.
----
Currently, I am reading another book on 'Trinity.'

Blessings,
 
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food4thought

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So the argument for immersing as obligatory, not optional, is weak at best.

Hi again, Albion. I just wanted to say that I agree that immersion is not obligatory... I would say it should be preferred due to the imagery of Romans 6. As I said on other posts, I can think of extreme situations where I would answer all the OP's questions differently.
 
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Albion

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The verse in matthew 28:19 was added later and is not found in the oldest manuscripts.
Are you saying that it is not considered to be part of the Bible in your household?

So the great commission to baptist is really questionable.
No, when it is said that something is not found in the oldest manuscripts, it does NOT mean that it is not divinely inspired, not accepted as Scripture, etc.

That is what many people think when they read that kind of footnote, but all this footnote means is that it was not found in the oldest manuscripts but is considered by the translators and experts to be genuine. Otherwise it would not be found in all the translations that are used in the churches.

But really this is a small issue. If one wants to get water baptism then go ahead. If one has strong faith in God and feel unecessary to observe it then don't need to do it.
Well, that is where the New Testament and this analysis part company.

The importance of baptism is all over the NT, and even the Christians who do not think it is a sacrament or forgives sin or that children should be baptized, etc. still think it is important for other reasons.
 
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Albion

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Hi again, Albion. I just wanted to say that I agree that immersion is not obligatory... I would say it should be preferred due to the imagery of Romans 6.
Thanks. The issue usually comes down to that very point, we all should recognize.

There are no Christians who say that baptism by immersion is invalid; it's only an issue because some others say that baptism by water and in the name of the triune God is NOT valid unless done by immersion.

But if it is a matter of the imagery/symbolism involved, what is their basis for claiming that a Christian baptism done by pouring water upon the candidate is invalid--not that it isn't the preferred imagery, not done as the early church allegedly did it, or anything of those claims...but invalid and necessitating a "re-baptism?"
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is false teaching. Only people who have the faith can be baptized. Everyone else is ineligible.

On what basis do you make this claim?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am mentally handicapped so any suggestion such people are unable to understand the Gospel is directly from SATAN! You break the rules by claiming I am not a Christian if you think being mentally ill prevents a person from understanding Christ.

That wasn't the claim being made.

Rather, that by insisting that only people of a certain mental accuity are able to have faith, then the implication is that people with certain mental disabilities would somehow be unable to have faith.

Those of us from traditional Christian backgrounds utterly reject the idea that faith depends upon a person's mental accuity or intellect; instead confessing our belief in God's grace and that salvation is a work of grace. That is why we baptize infants, because the word and promises of God as contained in His Gospel, His gracious work of salvation, is for everyone.

God doesn't require that we come to Him under our own power; rather God is the One who comes down, God comes to us, He meets us. He meets us through His Word and Sacraments, to give us Himself freely.

The preaching of the Gospel isn't an exercise in rhetoric, but the bold proclamation and declaration of God's love for the world and the victory of God in Christ for the world; it is not empty words, but the power of God to save (Romans 1:17-18), for this precious, holy, and indelible word of God is the very cause of our faith (Romans 10:17). Where this word is preached, where the Gospel is proclaimed, it is not the power of men, the eloquence, philosophy, or vane rhetoric of men at work--it is God at work. It is not I who bring faith to the unbelieving, but God who through His word affects change, bringing faith, turning the dead and lost into living sons and daughters of God.

Whether it be an infant or an old man, whether it be the uneducated or the philosopher-sage, whether it be the most simple or the most sublime--all men stand the same under the Law, are sinners; and it is to such as these--sinners--to whom God is Savior; to these is the word preached, to these does God come down to meet through these simple, precious gifts of Word and Sacrament. It was for this very reason that Christ founded His Church, sent His apostles, and gave charge to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and to preach forgiveness in His name, to proclaim His Gospel to every living creature.

By insisting that there are obstacles that must be overcome through our own efforts to reach God we pervert the simple and pure Gospel; we deny the grace of God, and we insist upon our own efforts. Salvation is not an obstacle that we need to achieve, it is the gracious, loving working of God upon sinners accomplished by Christ and granted to us as grace through the simple Means which He Himself has given. To preach the Gospel, to baptize, etc.

So that any one who is baptized is, indeed, an heir of faith, an heir of God, joint-heir with Christ, and member of the mystical Body of Christ, that is, His Church. She or he has salvation here, because Christ is their Savior, because He is the One saving them.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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His student

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God comannded all believers to be baptized in water. That is not adding anything, but doing what He said and John did. The message is clear: the apostles were instructed to preach the Gospel, then baptize all of the new believers. Where is the edded work to be justified?
The added work is not so much in obeying the Lord and being baptized. The added work in insisting that one be baptized with a certain church authorized formula in order to saved.

The apostles went forth and baptized in the name of Jesus. That "formula" should be good enough for anyone.

IMO - anyone who insists that a person must be baptized with the exact words as per Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or they are not saved is preaching another gospel.

P.s. - Notice that the Lord said "name" and not "names" in Matthew 28.
 
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His student

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Let's debate about this subject, how about it?..... Formula: Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?
Before anyone, especially the moderators, accuse me of promoting the Oneness view over the Trintarian view - I am not.

The OP asked the question, "Do you believe baptism should be performed only in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"

By highlighting the word only the OP was saying in effect that all other formulas were unacceptable (i.e. heretical).

I pointed out that the disciples baptized in the name of Jesus in spite of the words of the Lord. This indicates to me that they might have understood something more about the incarnation of the Father and the Holy Spirit that many others here do.

Most people who object to the formula used by Oneness proponents present a false picture of what they believe.

I'm merely pointing out that they are not promoting Arienism or full on modalism or Sebelianism or some other heresy as is often charged - but merely trying to understand these things in what they consider a more biblical manner than do Trinity proponents - namely that the "Son" was begotten at the incarnation as the scriptures say rather than eternally as the Nicene Creed insists we believe.

I.e. - Baptizing with the words "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is not the "only" acceptable formula to use. The one used by the apostles is also acceptable and indeed that many insist that it is more proper than the former formulation may have some validity.

I'm (reluctantly) OK with the insistence in the Forum that all posts be coming from a Trinity based belief system (as mine are). But then it would best if they didn't allow O.P.s which require that people address the question of the Trinity as this one does.
 
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GodLovesCats

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On what basis do you make this claim?

Baptism symbolizes a saved person's death and rebirth. The only baptism that saves people is of the Holy Spirit. I will get back to you with Bible verses about this.
 
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Not David

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Exactly.

He didn't. Nor did He authorize His children to.
What I see he established was "This is my body which is broken for you for the remission of sins". It does not sound at all like hocus pocus nor mumbo jumbo.
 
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GodLovesCats

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God doesn't require that we come to Him under our own power; rather God is the One who comes down, God comes to us, He meets us. He meets us through His Word and Sacraments, to give us Himself freely.

It is 100% our decision to accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ. If this was false, there would be no sin. I assume you know this as a Christian yourself. God does not come down; the Holy Spirit is already here in our hearts. Holy Spirit baptism does not occur until a person has decided to believe and accept Him.

Sacraments are just symbolic commands because we have already been saved.
 
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