What if we remove "church"?

A.ModerateOne

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The full Translators to the Readers portion of the 1611 KJV included the following concerning using ecclesiastical words, including "church":

"Lastly, we have on the one side avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans, who leave the old Ecclesiastical words, and betake them to other, as when they put Washing for Baptism, and Congregation instead of Church"

Do a search for "church" in the YLT (Young's Literal Translation) and you come up with zero, not one occurrence. In various translations in the OT you find "assembly of God" or "congregation of God"; and in the NT you'll find "assembly of God" or "people of God". This word "church" has become misleading and used to create the most fanciful and convoluted ideas in eschatology. Suppose we think in terms of the Old Covenant people of God and the New Covenant people of God. All believers then are Israel continued, not replaced:

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

Then for me, Rom. 11:17-27 would be understood this way:

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the rich root(Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember that it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(physical Jews), perhaps he will not spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And even those of Israel(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles) and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” “And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27, NRSV)
 

A.ModerateOne

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Hello David, I oppose the idea that God has two distinct peoples, one being Israel, and the other being the Church. I was raised on Dispensationalism and came to view that key point, God having two people, one the Church and one, Israel. Teaching that Israel is to have their nation again and start practicing Old Covenant rituals, including sacrifices. Frankly, I find that a serious heresy to bring back Old Covenant sacrifices after our Lord Jesus Christ annulled that, abolished it in his own body on the cross.

I like your Luther quote. Part of our evening devotions now includes going through Luther's Commentary on Galatians. That is being one great blessing!
 
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William Lefranc

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The full Translators to the Readers portion of the 1611 KJV included the following concerning using ecclesiastical words, including "church":

"Lastly, we have on the one side avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans, who leave the old Ecclesiastical words, and betake them to other, as when they put Washing for Baptism, and Congregation instead of Church"

Do a search for "church" in the YLT (Young's Literal Translation) and you come up with zero, not one occurrence. In various translations in the OT you find "assembly of God" or "congregation of God"; and in the NT you'll find "assembly of God" or "people of God". This word "church" has become misleading and used to create the most fanciful and convoluted ideas in eschatology. Suppose we think in terms of the Old Covenant people of God and the New Covenant people of God. All believers then are Israel continued, not replaced:

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

Then for me, Rom. 11:17-27 would be understood this way:

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the rich root(Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember that it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you.

You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(physical Jews), perhaps he will not spare you.

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And even those of Israel (Physical Jews), if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree (Gentiles) and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree (God's people), how much more will these natural branches (Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree (God's people). So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel (Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” “And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27, NRSV)


Thank you for your post. It is refreshing to see that I'm not alone believing what God's word really says without being influenced by the manipulating doctrines of like dispensationalism.

Bless you, brother,


JESUS PLUS NOTHING.jpg
 
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William Lefranc

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The full Translators to the Readers portion of the 1611 KJV included the following concerning using ecclesiastical words, including "church":

"Lastly, we have on the one side avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans, who leave the old Ecclesiastical words, and betake them to other, as when they put Washing for Baptism, and Congregation instead of Church"

Do a search for "church" in the YLT (Young's Literal Translation) and you come up with zero, not one occurrence. In various translations in the OT you find "assembly of God" or "congregation of God"; and in the NT you'll find "assembly of God" or "people of God". This word "church" has become misleading and used to create the most fanciful and convoluted ideas in eschatology. Suppose we think in terms of the Old Covenant people of God and the New Covenant people of God. All believers then are Israel continued, not replaced:

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

Then for me, Rom. 11:17-27 would be understood this way:

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the rich root(Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember that it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(physical Jews), perhaps he will not spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And even those of Israel(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles) and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.” “And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27, NRSV)

For a while, I have been using the term "new covenant congregation" instead of "church." Church means "called out", meaning we have been called out of the world's mindset in order to be part of the kingdom of God on earth.

Ephesians 1:4
4 "Just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless BEFORE HIM."

Ephesians 5:27
27 "That He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."

1 Peter 1:15-16
15 "But like THE HOLY ONE who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”


Anon, 1995. New American Standard Bible: 1995 update, La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Good post!
 
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A.ModerateOne

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For a while, I have been using the term "new covenant congregation" instead of "church." Church means "called out", meaning we have been called out of the world's mindset in order to be part of the kingdom of God on earth.

Ephesians 1:4
4 "Just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless BEFORE HIM."

Ephesians 5:27
27 "That He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."

1 Peter 1:15-16
15 "But like THE HOLY ONE who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”


Anon, 1995. New American Standard Bible: 1995 update, La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Good post!

Yes, I like that, "new covenant congregation". I believe I'll use that in the future. I seem to be closer to New Covenant Theology so that really works for me. Thank you!
 
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Knee V

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I think a better solution is being consistent and using the word "church" in the Old Testament for the assembly of God's people in Israel, instead of trying to gut words from the English language.

The English language became uniquely "English" (as opposed to its continental Germanic cousins) in the context of being Christianized. Many words in English came into existence precisely in that context. "Church" means "the Lord's", referring to the assembly of the Lord's people. I have no desire to make the language more generic and to get rid of ancient Christian English words.

Rather, we should educate people on what certain words mean, and then use those words properly. That is why I would prefer to simply use "church" in both the Old and New Testaments instead of getting rid of the word.
 
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William Lefranc

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The term "church" can be misleading, which "congregation" conveys the true meaning of the word.

One good reason why the adjective "church" is misleading, is that most people think that modern Israel is a result of some sort of prophecy. So, on one said we have "Israel" while on the other, we have the "church": Two different kinds of people.

The truth of the matter is that we have the old testament congregation that looked forward to a deliverer. and a new covenant congregation that looks back to the cross and understand they have been delivered from sin and death. Both the old and the new have their meaning, purpose, and fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

JESUS PLUS NOTHING.jpg
 
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A.ModerateOne

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One good reason why the adjective "church" is misleading, is that most people think that modern Israel is a result of some sort of prophecy. So, on one said we have "Israel" while on the other, we have the "church": Two different kinds of people.

The truth of the matter is that we have the old testament congregation that looked forward to a deliverer. and a new covenant congregation that looks back to the cross and understand they have been delivered from sin and death. Both the old and the new have their meaning, purpose, and fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

View attachment 262390

The idea that the modern State of Israel is somehow according to Bible prophecy is even denied by some Jews themselves:

"Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. We are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine Redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching."

"We also aim to reach out to our Jewish brethren who have never studied the subject of Zionism from a Torah perspective, and have only been taught the Zionist side of the story. It is our hope that all of our fellow Jews will soon open their eyes, return to Torah and reject this ideology that replaces the Jew's age-old hope for G-d's redemption with a false redemption and a human-initiated state."

Quoted from the Torah Jews web site: Our Mission | Torah Jews

It is sad that supposedly Bible-believing Christians think the Bible teaches that the fig-tree is a symbol for Israel. That is not in the Bible, it is from the Gnostic work The Apocalypse of Peter:

"And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"
The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature
 
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GodLovesCats

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The term "church" can be misleading, which "congregation" conveys the true meaning of the word.

How is the word church misleading? When people say it, I only think of one thing: buildings where people worship, pray, and listen to sermons together on Sunday mornings.

"Congregation" OTOH also refers to mosques, synagogues, kingdom halls, and LDS tabernacles.
 
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Jonaitis

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How is the word church misleading? When people say it, I only think of one thing: buildings where people worship, pray, and listen to sermons together on Sunday mornings.

"Congregation" OTOH also refers to mosques, synagogues, kingdom halls, and LDS tabernacles.

Well, "church" doesn't refer to a building, it refers to the people. What you have said is one of the reasons why it is misleading...

I don't think "congregation" is misleading for any of the things you mentioned, it is a generic term. However, it is the most fitting since that is the term used for the covenant people in the Old Testament. For an example, Moses speaks on behalf of God to the congregation. This refers to a body of people, and it is only used in reference to God's people. When the New Testament uses the same meaning of the Greek of what is understood in the Hebrew (and comparatively used in the LXX as the same), it brings out the meaning so much more than "church." When we put "church" into the New Testament, where it is "congregation" in the Old Testament, we create a dichotomy of God's people, when really the New Testament writers were connecting the two as one. So "congregation" in the Old Testament should be in mind when you read the equivalent in the New Testament, which "church" throws that out of the picture. Many don't understand that they are the same word, but translated differently.
 
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A.ModerateOne

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How is the word church misleading? When people say it, I only think of one thing: buildings where people worship, pray, and listen to sermons together on Sunday mornings.

"Congregation" OTOH also refers to mosques, synagogues, kingdom halls, and LDS tabernacles.

If you scroll back up I believe you'll see it was not written "congregation" alone, it is the New Covenant Congregation (or assembly) and in the Old Testament you had the Old Covenant Congregation (or assembly). The Koine Greek of the New Testament was the common Greek that the everyday man would understand in that time. Keeping that same spirit, it is better to remove these ecclesiastical words and use proper, everyday English. A couple more ecclesiastical words found in the KJV which do not properly translate the NT Greek is "bishoprick" in Acts 1:20 and "Easter" in Acts 12:4 and even the KJV-only Dispensationalists need to explain Acts 7:38 "the church in the wilderness" where the Old Covenant Congregation is called a church.
 
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